O2 and Air...

[bitter being]

Ok I recently moved to a small town where there are no air fill stations whatsoever. But I do have access to high pressure oxygen. Can I use oxygen instead of just air? please respond.

[marfish]

Re: O2 vs. Air

You're gonna hear from most of us that O2 will blow up on you if you use it straight. Well,,,,Cool. The balls come out with their own tracer tails!! And why not!? It might mean you could turn down the pressure and use the albeit small explosion to propel the balls, no? What a bright way to save on propellant(no pun intended). Except then you'd have to find a way to keep the flow of oil comming for each shot. And consider that you'd then be required by law to register your gun as a firearm. Hmmmmm.......
Let me remind you of the three elements of fire.
1. Oxygen
2. Fuel
3. Heat

Now, the marker has oil for the fuel part, if you maintain it right.
You are wanting to supply it with highly oxydizing propellant(O2).
But the third element is pretty much missing. Wa'la! no explosion. At least in theory.
Teacher:. Class, can we name any sources of ignition in a marker?,,, well??.....
Student. Oh,.. oh,.. oh, how about my E-trigger?
T. No. Totally enclosed and no sparks.
S. Ok.,,,,,,, How...about...sparks from the moving bolt ?
T. Not unless it's flint or has static discharge from plastic sliding over plastic. anyone else?,,,,,,anyone at all.,,,,, Yes, Ronnie.
S. Maybe the heat of sudden compression?
T. Well, class, we might have a winner here. Ronnie, tell the class what you mean.
S. That by suddenly introducing very high pressures, the chamber could momentarily heat up enough to ignite the rich fuel/oxygen mixture: like in a Diesel engine.
T. Very good, Ronnie. Good thinking. Anybody care to dispute this? Yes,,,,Linda.
S. If the oil that we use in our markers is floating around that much, wouldn't the guns go dry after only a few shots with HPA or Co2?
T. Uhhhh,,,,,, I suppose. What are you driving at?
S. Well, since we don't contstantly add oil, like my dad does with the car, would there really be any oil and air mixing going on after the initial flush through? In that case we may have heat but not a good source of fuel?......Teacher?....
T. Yea,,,,Hmmm...let me get... back to you on...that. Uhh..... Wendel. What is it?
S. Teacher, doesn't high pressure gas cool when going from higher to lower pressures?
T. Why, yes, Wendel it does...What're you thi....
S. Then the air that enters the marker and drops from 4500psi to 800psi should be actually cooller than is was in the tank, right?
T. Are you saying what I think you're saying?
S. Yes teacher. Decompression
T. Oh, look. We're almost late for recess! Class dismissed .............I have such a headache!

Well, it seems that we neither have fuel aplenty nor heat. All we have is very oxydative propellant that will react very readily with any amount of fuel to start the oxydation process. You've heard of spontaneous combustion no doubt. At what level that occurs, I don't know so that seems to be the mystery element. And since it is very difficult to control, you need to find out if pure O2 will ignite an OIL FILM at pretty low temperatures and pressures.
You also realize you would have to take the responsibility to regulate the pressure that goes into your tanks from the Larger one. Safety takes on a different form when changing to a new medium. Think before you do anything and above all don't kill someone nor yourself. You are off to a good start by asking questions. Keep it up.
Let us know the final word on wether or not it would work safely.
Marfish

[goddom]

How is it that you have access to high pressure O2 but not air? I can guess that perhaps you work somewhere they have Oxy-acetalene welding and you want to use the O2 off the that rig. I will just suggest that you don't not because the O2 it self if explosive but as marfish explained in lengthy detail it only perpetuates a fire or explosion. High pressure gas itself is potentially very deadly, and I would not suggest being the guinea pig with something that could kill you. That is not to say that you get hurt, but why take the chance.

One last thing, if you are thinking about using the O2 off of a welding rig then the company who is providing the gas (O2 and acetalene) for the welding rig can also provide you with N2 or even Argon. Both of which are inert gasses. Perhaps even compressed air. So if that is hte case that should be your first choice.

[trains are bad]

NO.

don't even think about it unless you want a Darwin award.

High pressure gas itself is potentially very deadly, and I would not suggest being the guinea pig with something that could kill you. That is not to say that you get hurt, but why take the chance.

No. It's not a case of 'might'; you WILL be in trouble. Posts like this really scare me.

[JimmyBeam]

ya what he said. although the darwin award has become very prestigious (sp)

[bitter being]

LOL @ darwin awards.. thanks for the info guys. :)

[marfish]

O2 vs. HPA

I'm very bitter sorry, no wait, I mean sorry Bitter, I was only addressing the question of safety due to combustion inside a marker in a pure oxygen environment. I hope everyone understands that 4500psi gas of any flavor is still 4500psi and should be handled only by those trained and experienced with it. My assumption was that you could and would have the proper safety equipment and fill equipment that a trained person could use to fill your tanks. Just that you didn't have access to a supply of HPA.

Surely you have a welding shop that can hook you up to a compressor or Nitrogen bottle to fill your SCUBA tank. If you don't have a SCUBA tank and can't hook up directly to a large N2 bottle, then you need one along with the requisite training in handling High Pressure Gas. There are numerous ways to get a tank, manifold valve, and regulator. Try eBay, paintball trading forums, I&I Sports, and others.

I suspect that if you have no welding shop that you do have medical/surgical offices and they definately have a supplier. Hook up with one of them. They could probably let you use their discount account to get your own nitrogen bottle for use.

Remember that this is not kid's stuff. It's like playing on the freeway-YOU BETTER BE SCARED!! Get TRAINED!! Safety really doesn't change like I proposed in my first post(it was late). You must follow the same steps to insure safety.

I work at a hospital and could get liquid oxygen but I don't have a death wish so I let that sleeping dog lie.:)

A couple comments about other posts herin:
1. Trains: "No. It's not a case of 'might'; you WILL be in trouble. Posts like this really scare me.
Today 12:51 AM "

Interesting. If we all stick our heads in the sand so as to avoid the warnings placed on labels then we are more nominated for the Darwin Award because we despise or fear education and wisdom. The only thing that can supercede warning labels is EDUCATION. This isn't rocket science but even THEY have to be EDUCATED. If someone is going to make a dangerous mistake, it is my duty as a fellow human to warn him and EDUCATE HIM about how and why it is dangerous. I'm with you Trains. Remember, we who tremble at the thought of sending a newbee to fill HPA tanks don't read the labels anymore because we've learned how much power there is inside that little tank. But just sayin NO only breeds rebellion, resentment and accidents. Kinda like practicing safe sex. We must teach the interested BEFORE they do it on their own and have an accident. :)
2. goddom: right on. thanks for saying so much in so little space.:)

Just my $.02 worth of rant. LoL
Wow, I love the guys who post here. I get such a charge from all the helpful insight and willingness to share knowledge.
Marfish

[trains are bad]

Yeah I'm learning a new keyboard layout, so sometimes i'm a little too brief. To reemphasize, O2 accellerates combustion rapidly and will start oil on fire an room temperature. It is entirly unsuitable as a paintgun propellant. Thanks to the topic starter for asking.

[The Spanish Inquisition]

0xygen = $$$$$

If the safety issues weren't enough I would think the price would be. Oxygen tends to be quite a bit more expensive than other compressed gasses. We can usually get nitrogen for dirt cheap because the people that sell oxy to welders need to get rid of all the excess nitrogen after they seperate the two gasses from regular air. The nitrogen is already compressed and ready for us to use. Also, as you know, there is a ton more nitrogen in air than oxy.

If you do have a welding suppy place near you, you should ask them about the nitrogen. Some welding rigs use nitro for special applications.

Personally im keeping my fingers crossed for a liquid nitrogen setup. ---> one drop of liquid nitro = 100k plus psi and enough air for 6 months of play. (I just don't want to be one of the lucky few who die testing the prototypes out) =P

[bitter being]

I got a fill station!

[marfish]

O2 vs. HPA

Ok. o.k.,
We're excited too. But don't leave us in the dark to become bitter over the mystery. Tell us what you found and which way you went. Is it C02, HPA or the dreaded pure 02?