Galactic Z and other automag parts probs...

[HyperSnyper]

Hello again all,
I have made a tremendous discovery on my Mag. So far my the best find ever. Sorry for rambling, but heres my story...

I bought a galactic Z valve about a month ago, I heard of it lightnening the trigger pull and having a mildly reactive trigger (like the RT's). When it came in, it didnt work as well as I wanted, the pull was lighter, but sometimes when pulling the trigger, the on/off would get stuck, and the bolt would not fire, I would actually have to hit the back of the gun to fire it. I learned that if I pulled the trigger all the way,it would do this. I also noticed in the on/off that in the on/off o-ring "sandwitch" the inner white o-ring would always come off and get stuck to the on/off pin.

I noticed this would cause the chamber from filling back up because the on/off would always seal due to the inner oring slipping down off the larger o-ring. Just recently, I actually laid both on/off valves (AGD and GS Z) side by side. It was then that I noticed that the GS Z valve on/off pin was slightly longer??? Not obviously noticeable, but when eyed down closely, it could be discriminated.

I then filed down the pin till it was the same length as the stock pin, I also polished the top to the GS Z valve pin so that the inner white o-ring would not stick. Bolted everything back up and gassed her up. The gun ran flawlessly. In fact better than flawless. The gun did not stick, Th reactivity was alot stronger to the point where My friend and I could find a sweet spot to hold the trigger at and the trigger would litereally bounce in full auto. The ~10 bps string was nice and flat like in the HALO video. Now I am simply amazed, I have a regular AIR doing the same dang thing like an RT.

The thing is I noticed was that it was only small manufacturing errors that caused the parts to not work. Maybe the Galactic systems manufacturing isnt as precise and demanding as AGD, but after some modifications, it can be made to work.

Do you think that all aftermarket parts can be made to work if it was given a second inspection to make sure it matches AGD specifiactions? I know it may sound like a waste of time, but I am still so impressed that I got this darn GS system valve to work flawlessly. The darn thing is bouncing like my dang friends Minimag RT.

[HyperSnyper]

With your "Boring the On/Off Hole" post still fresh in my memory, I'm prompted to ask you to show us. This is what I think: you expected to see results, which is why you found them. I will be waiting for your excuse - in great anticipation no less.

Well well well now Tiger. I wasnt hpoing to find a flamer, but I guess this is my first one. Well Tiger heres is your oh so anticipated "excuse".

First of all, with my BORING OF THE ON/OFF HOLE MOD post, if you noticed, it was an intelligent inquiry to the Mag community here at AO. I wasnt sure of its potential, so I wanted the opinion of others here in the forum. I did not say "OH MY GOD, WHY DIDNT TOM DO THIS, THIS INCREASES PERFORMANCE 10 FOLD, HES AN IDIOT!!!" No, I said, actually no, I ASKED "Will this allow for faster recharge times?" Boring of the hole was a new idea with slight potential, because common sense says that a larger diameter orifice opens up more potential for air flow. My flaw was that the on/off valve opening doesnt accomodate for a larger outlet. Also, the bottleneck would be the hole also leading to the on/off, since the diamter is set due to the on/off pin diameter is set, and the oring there cannot be enlargened unless a new pin is made. So, I scrapped the project (although I was thinking if the hole leading from the regulator to the on/off, if the opening can be opened at the entry to make sort of an "air horn" to smoothen the incoming airflow from differing angles).

Now onto my most recent post reguarding my repair of the Galactic Z valve. At first I did expect some decent results. I expected slight reactiveness. When I first installed it, the new outer oring in the oring sandwitch above the valve was a new item that came with the valve. It was suppose to be a rubber valve rather than a urethane one that the stock AGD valves come with. Im guessing that the oring was big. Because of this, it allowed movement of the inner oring which aided in the inner oring moving around and sticking to the GS Z valve pin. This created alot of inconsistent shots, unpredicatable gun firing, and alot of short stroking. This is due to the oring sticking, if the oring sticks, then the pin cannot pull away, and if the pin cannnot pull away from the inner oring, it cannot allow for recharge of the empty air chamber resovoir.

That was the story of my old setup, it came to the point where I had to pull the trigger back all the way (or else it wouldnt fire) however, not ALL the way, or else the pin will be pushed all the way into the on/off and the oring would stick.

Like I said in my above post, I fixed this when I noticed the pin was slightly longer, so I filed it down to the same length as the AGD pin. I also remembered the oring sticking to the pin, so I took away material away (very slight from polishing) from the head of the GS Z valve pin so there would be less sticking, and more sliding.

Now what did I get? I got a GS Z valve Micromag that had some actual significant reactivity. To the point where I can fire nearly 10 bps once I find that "sweet spot" in the trigger.

Now theres my explanation Tiger. At first I did expect results, but imperfections in the valve manufacturing took that away. And because of that I didnt recieve the full potential of the GS Z valve for about a month (and believed that it was the actual peak performance of the product). It did lighten the trigger pull nicely, so I didnt feel that bad. When I saw the problem with the incorrect tolerances of the pin, I did not expect the repair to give me the above results.

Do you think that it was all just a placebo Tiger. Do you think that just because the advertisements say that it would do that (even though you dont believe it works) in my mind it was performing, abut in reality it wasnt. What is just a miraculous manifestation? Do you think Im an idiot?!?! That I would post something as ridiculous as you say to experienced Mag veterans, and even infromt of Mr AGD himself trying to make this stuff up.

Everything I said above is true. Im not sure If I have to get my friend, video record my gun so you can see its only a Benchmark 2x, absolutely NO battery pack, and that its NOT an RT valve on my gun. Then fire the gun at 10 bps with my trigger finger bouncing like a damn jackhammer.

Maybe if theres enough ppl here that wont belive me, then I will do that and upload and link it as an mpeg file. I will even make it a custom video just for you. I will show in the video the gun while saying "Hey Tiger you idiot, look NO RT or electro frame on this gun!" Then fire it. I might even go out of the way and video record me actually showing the GS Z valve and actually installing it, then going onto inspecting the gun for any illegitimate parts.

I will do it if you and others ask me too. PLZ ASK ME TO. So for all the non believers, I can show whats going on.

So dont link my curious inquiry post, and label me an idiot just because you dont think it would work. I didnt say it would work, which is why the post was in a QUESTION format. This on the other hand DOES work. I like to fully research all my workings, and balance all the pros/cons.

So now Tiger, I will now be patient for your rebuttle in ever awaiting anticipation.

-HyperSnyper (looking in his closet for his Camcorder)

[ShinyGuy]

I agree Tiger was out of line, but I share some of his skepticism. From everything I've read the Z-valve shouldn't work. The theory behind it is simply wrong. If you have somehow gotten it to work I'd really like to see it.

[HyperSnyper]

Shiny,
I thank you for your support, and understand your skepticism. OMG, its only a Galactic Z valve! Which what I thought when I first bought it. I got it because it seemed like a damn good deal.

I bought it brandnew online for like 40 bucks. This included an on/off and a spacer. 20 for most on/off's and 15 for most spacer kits. 35 all in all, so why not spend 5 more for a new hyped product where the theory in the design seemed correct.

I went for it and regreted my actions sligtly, the pull was lighter but un reliable.

It is now fixed, and the trigger is reactive. The same as my friends Minimag RT. I know its sounds absolutely crazy, but its true. A contributing factor could also be that both of us use Pure Energy 68/3K HPA tanks. These have a preset poutput pressure of 750. I know you RT heads out there like to really pump the pressure so the reactivity will be insane. But until he gets an adjustble, we are equal.

I am glad that I am stimulating the minds of the board. I want more ppl to read this and doubt me. This will be a big thing. I will have to produce a realistic mpeg size showing my gun with ABSOLUTELY no RT or Electro parts. In the mpeg, I want to show my self pull the trigger normally, then I will pull it til it reaches that sweet spot and it gets bouncing. However, it needs to be short enough so that others can download it and witness it. I might make 2. One long version of me installing it and firing it. So there will be those that can download it and support my workings. And a shorter one so everyone can get it.

Just remember with the HALO video. Everyone believed the Hyperframes weren't worth the powder to blow them up, and that the Emag was the only way to go (or Angel, or Impulse) then low and behold, the video came out showing a BONE STOCK Mag with Hyper, shooting a damn nice 16 bps non stop string.

Didnt that change the minds of many and made them more open to other aftermarket parts. I bet you that increased the sale of HALOS along with of course... Hyperframes.

Just something to think about...

(all I know is, if this adds sales to the GS Z valve, then I better be getting commision dammit... lol j/k)

-Hyper

[Panzerr]

I'd just like to repeat what I've heard time and time again-the standard autmag on/off valve works just fine. Any aftermarket on/off is just a gimick. Don't you think AGD would have incorporated a change after all these years if they found that something actually worked better?

[steveg]

Hello again all. Shame on you Shiny you being a Mechanical
Engineer and all. (my feeling were hurt when you said I might
be wrong in the Why Stainless thread.. JUST JOKING !)

I'm assuming that you are refering to the lighter pull
and the slight reactiveness.

if you look at the z-valve on/off pin


that would be the one to the left. you can see that it has
3 different diameters.

As we all know the on/off pin has two functions, one is to
turn the air flow on and off, the other is that of a piston
to push the sear back against the bolt.

some numbers and a few assumptions.

My automag manual (we all have one of those, right) states that
the operating pressure is 375 PSI. obviously this varies from
marker to marker, velocity,barrel etc. but we have to pick
a number.

next the on/off pin (mine) is .1178" diameter or .0109 sq"


now for our purposes, force(pounds)= P(psi)x area

or F=375psi x .0109 sq"
F=4.09 pounds(lbs)

so this number 4.09 lbs (give or take) is the force that
the on/off pin exerts upon the sear all the time when the
mag is gassed up.

the rt, the z-valve, and the centerflag hyperframe pin all
differ from the standard pin in that they have two diameters
the top diameter and a smaller diameter through the on/off
valve body
I have the HF so i'll use that as the example

head diameter .1153
body diameter .0687

Its important to remember that the on/off pin has two states "on" and "off" (bet you didn't see that coming)

So, in the off position we have the same 4.09 lbs pushing
down on the pin (actually 3.92 given the smaller diameter)
and against your trigger finger as well

In the on position something different happens because the
pin is no longer a .1153 diameter piston, the air pressure
is also present at the smaller diameter portion of the
pin.
so large area =.01044" sq
small area =.00371" sq

the Effective pistion area at the ON position is .00673 sq"

.00673 x 375 =2.52 lbs

At last here we are

force to close the on/off pin = 2.52 lbs
force to open the on/off pin = 3.92 lbs


without bothering with any math the RT applies about 800psi
to the pin in the OFF position so the force against the pin
doubles to around 8 lbs. at the the ON position it would
be somewhere around 2.5 lbs all other things being the same
(that is an assumption which is only slightly better than guessing)


SOOOO does the z-valve lighten the trigger pull Yes it must
this is simple physics.

Will it make the marker reactive, HS says so on his

remember as explained else were on this site the RT works
because of the difference in ON and OFF force against the
trigger and the users ability to find the right combination
of input pressure and finger pressure.

I would GUESS that HS was one of the lucky ones and found
the combination of parts and finger pressure that works.

One final thing then i'll go away. HS the Japanese do make good
stuff I'd bet that the pin was the right size but that the
very hard teflon o-ring was undersize they are molded
and therefore more prone to size variations the pin is probably
ground to its final size.

[slateman]

let me get this straight:

I buy a Z-Valve; I sand down the on/off pin to the size of a normal on/off pin; and I get a Reactive Trigger?!?

[steveg]

nope only an RT or ReTro will do that

however if you sand your pin down enough it will
go fully auto because the the on/off opens before
the bolt is latched

[slateman]

what would be the negative asspect of this procedure?

[steveg]

Hi slateman, if you are referring to the z-valve It might
not work for your marker. And you will have 40 bucks less
to spend on paint.
If your are referring to shortening the on/off pin until
it goes auto. That is A REALLY BAD IDEA. the first time you
pull the trigger it will auto fire until it runs out of
air. the bolt will be chipped all to peices and your sear
will probably be ruined (see early hyperframe) forgive me
if you thougth I was serious it was said as a joke

[MrStrike]

HyperSnyper im glad you found sucess with the on/off valve. The TRUE test will be how it handels over the long haul. Im shure AGD can make a smoken'-light'-utrla fast'-gun, but the parts wear out after 1000 shots.
Look at the testing for the superbolt made with Derlin material.
BTW dont let Baby Tiger II get to you. He has flamed me unnecassarly before. Just ingnore him and some day he will grow up.
see you in my sights

[M-a-s-sDriver]

z-valve reliability

Hyper and I have been yapping about these mods for a while now. I am a little surprised that he had the tolerence issue on the pin in such a pronounced way, but I am sure it was the o-ring and not the pin. Any problem I find in a Mag is usually an o-ring problem, or bolt spring related.
A coupla weeks ago, in a tourny, my mag started having a similar problem as Hyper's. I replaced the Bolt-spring and made sure there was oil in the on-off assembly (it looked bone dry) and the problem vanished. My Z-valve has been thru roughly 25-30 cases of paint now and had just that one problem. It is really not a high wear item so I don't foresee any problems with it over what a stock on-off would be. As for filing the pin, just be VERRRY careful. You are talking thousands of an inch here. But, that is how I used to tune my RTs untill I found out AGD sells pins of varying lengths. You can get an RT really touchy with a short pin and a high input pressure.
Oh, need a little trick for saving reg seats? GUT THE REG! Put a Palmer Stab on the side and oil it...problem gone!:)
Brent Jackson, PFB.