AGD really let me down at PSP (long)

[lamby]

Well, after a little break from paintball it is time to voice my complaints:

I am starting to think that AGD does NOT make a tourney level gun. I was really happy with my emag for about a year but that all changed in one day in June. Team Mad Cow plays with 3 emags, and 2 angels.

The pregame stageing and crono was fine, like I expected it would be. but it all went terribly wrong our first game, which was at the shocktech field. All three of our emags were almost banned from play because we removed the trigger pins in them to prevent the dreaded "trigger bounce" that these guns are known for in "Hybrid" mode. After agueing with the chrono ref for about 5 minutes he decided to let us play, but told us that if the trigger pins were not installed we would be disqualified for all future games. The reason that we gave us for this was very justifiable "the rt valve does not reflect the proper FPS unless you hold in the trigger and simulate a fast fire position, therefore without the trigger pins in we can't chrono these markers correctly and you will be shooting hotter than what you chrono."

Ok after this I was pretty POed now I had to setup 3 emags in a short period of time because we had to play another game on the shocktech field in one hour. The Emag, as those that shoot them know, can become reactive very easily in hybrid mode. this was very hard to balance this "bounce" with, the ability to charge the RT (keep pressure on the on/off pin to simulate a fast fire for chrono'ing)

This marker has a major problem with the combined electronic/manual function that is touted by AGD, (the reason I picked one over the angel in the first place) that AGD is aware of. One of AGD's teams (Lions) had this same problem at world cup last year and they had to pull the trigger pins to eliminate the tourney banning "bounce" that they were experiencing. I adjusted the markers so they could not shoot in manual mode, but still placed pressure on the on/off for chono. There was a no bounce with the flatlines dialed into 575 psi (but the markers were skipping shots because the input pressure was too low. I dialed the tanks to 625ish and they shot fine but there was significant trigger bounce. Ok, now we are screwed I am thinking, I adjust the tanks to 575 and said we will have to deal with the missed shots or we will be banned. One player dropped his Emag for a backup Timmy that we had.

We all were allowed on the field and chrono'ed ok. My Emag was sputtering, as there was not enough pressure to cycle the level X correctly (not want you want from a back guy).
I think that we might have lost that game because of the incredible loss of speed that my gun was suffering.

After that game, I went back and boosted my input pressure to 650 and said I will deal with the marker DQ if it happens. We had a spare cocker ready to run at the next game.

The next field was the evil field and we did not have any problems because they never took the guns out of "E-Mode" Our front player went back to his Emag, and all was good.

life was good until the skys opened up. Where the E-mags again showed a major weakness (they are far from water tight) we lost our markers because of water on the boards and in the hall effect switch, which cost us games. (they were sliconed before we had to open them up because of the trigger pin problem above).

All of this and NO AGD techs to be found. I was PI$$ED. AGD failed us miserablely. I can see why AGD markers are a joke among many serious players.

I am warning you. If you want to play at the highest levels of this sport, buy a marker that is:
1) supported (all other manifactures were at the PSP)
2) does not have major design flaws. (bounce)
3) capable of shooting in the rain without short circuiting

I am very upset with AGD and now I will be buying a Angel IR3 or a shocker (if they are as nice as I heard)

I will not loose another game because of a marker. If I loose, I want it to our fault, not equipment.

Thank you for reading this post

[Dayspring]

I don't see ANYWHERE in there where it's AGD's fault.

You removed the trigger rods, and were told to put them back in. YOUR CALL. You know how the gun has to be chrono'd. The Judge just called you on it.

Fried a board. YOU took them apart and didn't silicone them again. (Granted, I kinda agree w/ the waterproofing thing, it's NOT AGD's fault.)

I don't know about you, but I run 800-850 into the gun and don't have this huge bounce you're afraid of.
The bounce isn't a design flaw... (BTW- it's being worked on)


Do not blame AGD for problems YOU encountered, and in some cases, created for yourself.


BTW- If you look, Tom posted WHY AGD wasn't there. He also posted that there are manufacturers that only go to PSP or only go to NPPL. So why don't you yell at them too.

[Duke Henry]

Why were you shooting your guns in Hybrid to start with? I am curious, I only use my Emag in E-Mode but that is my own personal preference.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience.

[Frank (the spank)]

Was the chrono judge able to bounce the trigger?

As I understood it, if a ref or judge is able to bounce it then it would be illegal, otherwise you can use it.

What a bunch of crap... knowing my temper I probaly would have tank whipped the jerk and called it a day.

[AutomagRT1483]

Here's an idea...stop complaining and get a back-up gun in case this happends like most people do. Sheesh.:rolleyes:

Sorry if it seems a little harsh, but all I have been hearing lately, from mag owners, is how much AGD sucks. You know if they all have problems so much why dont they just sell their mags and get something else???

[lamby]

Dayspring:

It is AGDs fault. I was tring to reverse engineer a marker to make it legal and could not. I did not get pulled for trigger bounce because my input pressure was so low (aka to the point of not firing). I also seen the PSP post about AGD not being there, I dont care for excuses I want results. TK made a comment that WDP was not there for the PSP.. That is BS they were there with 5 techs. The trigger bounce issue has been know by AGD for a long time and it still is not fixed (the new "light weight manual trigger" that TK is working on should fix this as it is an adjustable (via shims) On/Off assy. I know how to chrono my markers, and I know what the rule is on trigger bounce. You can't have both worlds. Understand the marker before you coment, there is a known design flaw that AGD has yet to fix!!

Duke

We wern't in hybrid. the chrono ref was though. I like Emode only but we would have been banned without the annoying trigger pins

[lamby]

rt1483:

I will have a backup gun it will be my emag. I will not use that maker in another large tourney until AGD fixes it correctly (I think a new valve design is in order for e mode only.) but I dont care. I am buying a new marker and I will not buy, or recommed AGD to anyone else that wants to play at a high level. the emag is prob the best field marker made.. It is fast, easy to maintain, nice on paint, but there are problem that can ban it from tourneys. When you drop the kind of money needed for travel, logdeing, and registration, a chance of a DQed marker is a pretty HUGE risk.

You have met me. You know I always defended AGD in the past. You know I loved my Emag. That all changed June 18th 2003.

[Dayspring]

:rolleyes:


Originally posted by lamby
Dayspring:

Understand the marker before you coment, there is a known design flaw that AGD has yet to fix!!

[Spaceman613]

remember when these "flaws" used to be features? like turbo?

[AutomagBoy]

hmmm, maybe now i'm no longer thinking of getting an emag or xmag. I have never realy shot one before so i dont know the problems. Ill probably get a shocker now.

[AutomagRT1483]

I understand where your coming from lamby. Sorry if I got outta line.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by AutomagRT1483
H why dont they just sell their mags and get something else??? I did. Also, in his little story, his front man switched to a timmy and he said he had a backup cocker to shoot if need be While the emag is a good marker for the most part, like every gun, it has it's share of trouble. Some are hard for some, others it's no big deal. Like me having to mill my rail for warp ULE's, even only 1/8th", really bothers me, but thats just me, so I traded my Emag away, after venting here:p .
Basically it does come down to what he said about going to events of support, not AGD's fault, so next time ya do PSP, don't bring the Emags! But for the love of all thats holy, get anything other than a Timmy!;) (personal pref once again...........)

[Meph]

Originally posted by lamby
I dont care for excuses I want results.

Care to help by ponying up a few thousand so AGD can be there despite their budget restraints? If not, then shut up.


And why didn't you do this trigger debouncing stuff days BEFORE the tournament? Why not get it ready before hand so when the day arrives, you will be all set and not have to fix it under a deadline like that?

Take some responsibility for yourself and quit pointing blame. I can get an E-mag set up so it won't get the triggerbounce. It's not too difficult. Next time get ready for the event sooner than the day of!

[cphilip]

Well your problem all started because a ref made you put the trigger rod back in. There is NOTHINGin the rules to back him up. Many electronic markers do NOT EVEN HAVE trigger rods. So how can it be required that you have one? It cannot.

The fault is in the PSP reffing and missinterpretation of the rules. And in fact that is the stupidest example of rules enforcement I have EVER heard.

I think we now can see another reason that AGD did not want to be present at the PSP.

[lamby]

meph:

I would love to see this.. AGD himself was not able to accomplish this at Cup last year, acording to one of the players from AGD Lions. They had to pull the trigger pins out. Your location says "AOs tippman guy" do you use, or ever even setup an Emag? :rolleyes:

[covadsucks]

At this year's Mardi Gras Open we(Team AO) were not checked for trigger bounce at all. The only time I was checked was for not having my safety installed in my EMag and even then it was allowed onto the field.

I think the refs simply didn't understand the rules and got overzealous with your markers. Sucks that you got screwed.

[cphilip]

Well lamby that is not entirely correct. The Loins did that on their own at the crono station to get past a particularly fiestly ref. He was doing everything he could to get any marker to bounce. He disallowed several NON AGD markers. And there was no fix for those. But the AGD ones could be fixed. And that was easily done by removing the use of Hybrid by removing the rods. And all was well.

[cphilip]

Meph, this issue is not his fault. It's entirely on that Ref. He required something that cannot be required.

[Meph]

I may own 6 Tippmanns and have been labeled the "Tippmann guy." I didn't call myself that, I've BEEN called that. So I just adopted it.

However I'm also a PTI certified Airsmith! Something I'm sure you knew. I have also studied and worked with most every marker out there in my own time. So I can actually tell you about 90% of all markers, on and off the market.

And no, I don't know how to set up an E-mag. Which is why I had to fix a friends' because he couldn't get it to work, and after I was done he loved it. So no, I don't know. And I don't even own a mag...... besides my ULE with X-valve of course. But that's besides the point since I'm "The Tippmann Guy" right?

Yeah. :rolleyes:

And Cph. It's not entirely his fault, no. But he is in part yes. There's no reason for him to not set it up before the event. I'm smarter than that, I'm sure you are. Anybody who thinks logically is. To gas up and completely check your markers and even your backup(s) before going to a tournament.

But the refs of course are also to blame if they don't know the rules and regulations. That's the worst thing that any place can have, refs who don't know squat. Really makes any event a complete waste of $$ and time.

[Duke Henry]

Originally posted by RogueFactor
Pardon my ignorance, but doesnt just pulling the jumper from the E-mag board disable Hybrid?

Pulling the jumper from the Emag board disables the 3 and 6 shot bursts.

[cphilip]

No, that which you are thinking about is Burst modes I believe.

[Jonesie]

The trigger bounce issue is a relatively new issue. I think it hasn't been an official rule until this season, meaning the Lions wouldn't have had to deal with it a Cup last year, as it is a new issue this season.

Also, they have solved the problem by designing an On/Off pin with less surface area on the top (a smaller head, if you will) so as to reduce the reactivity to an acceptable level as per the new rule.

IF you hadn't taken out your trigger rod, you gun would have outperformed any other gun at the tournament. That is your mistake.

As per AGD's official statement on the matter, I refer you to:
1. http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73957&highlight=nppl+bounce+rule
2. http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70654&highlight=nppl+bounce+rule
(Scroll down to Tom's post about a solution)

BTW - Shoot whatever you want. E-Mag, Angel, Tippmann, they all fire paintballs @ 300FPS.

EDIT:
However, I DO agree that there should have been Techs at the CHICAGO event. But think about this, WDP is an official sponsor of the NPPL. As far as I know, they will not be at any PSP events, AT ALL. So your Angel issues will have to be dealt with by a 3rd party, not WDP directly...

Hope This Helps ~ Dave

[cphilip]

Well the point here is they should be allowed to take them out if they chose. There is no rule requires a rod activated trigger. However they would have to crono like they were taking them on the field. But that would be preferable to the way they ended up.

Yes the rule of one pull per shot WAS and ALWAYS has been around and one Ref at WC last year did enforce it that way. And he enforced it evenly and kicked several non AGD markers out. And all AGD markers were indeed allowed. How do I know? I was right there...

[lamby]

phillip:

The Emags at CUP were allowed only AFTER the trigger pins were removed. I was also told that this was only at one field. That is how our markers were setup going it this tourney. The catch 22 is what bagged us. You can't elminate trigger bounce, make your LX work correctly, and still chrono the RT valve correctly. As you know if you just shoot the marker you can run at say 285 fps but if you have pressure held on the on/off and then fire (simulating quick firing) you can spike up to 320ish on the chrono which will get you a 6 tourney suspension from the PSP events or a 2+1 at minimum.

Jonesey:
Thanks for the link. I am aware of all of this though. I am still waiting for the pin that would have fixed this problem before it happened. I was talking to TK about this at the Wisconsin AO meet and Greet at Sams. He said then he WOULD be at the chicago open with a programmer to get rid of the 16bps cap that the older emags have.

The point is, if AGD had techs there, and they have the new on/off tops (which I am sure they have), this would not have been an issue. AGD was not there and left us high and dry when we needed them most.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Isn't the Rt mode in the Rt valves a FEATURED design? If you knew you were going to a tourny that didn't allow trigger bounce, why would you bring guns that were completely dependant on trigger bounce? Yeah , meph said it earlier, i won't repeat it.

Who on this earth brings one gun to a major tournament? That's a great thing to do. Any gun can go down unexpectedly. If it were me, i would have simply removed the battery from the pack and used it on manual. But that's just me.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Originally posted by lamby

The point is, if AGD had techs there, and they have the new on/off tops, this would not have been an issue. AGD was not there and left us high and dry when we needed them.


Since when does AGD cater to you? You a factory team? It's absolutely not their responsibility.

[Dayspring]

Point is- the new on/offs aren't done yet, so having techs there wouldn't have helped.


Originally posted by lamby
The point is, if AGD had techs there, and they have the new on/off tops (which I am sure they have), this would not have been an issue. AGD was not there and left us high and dry when we needed them most.

[brian terry]

well i was playing 10 man with a team at psp last weekend.they had 4 emags and i had my xmag we all went on the field with not a bit of crap from anyone .the reffs shot our guns and said we are good to go .we played all 3 fields as well.the agd kids played 5 man and they dident have any prob getting on the field with there xmags.i just thank you got a stupid reff that did not know what he was doing.

[lamby]

ragu:

Did you not read the original post? we had backup markers, a cocker, a timmy, an RT pro, we even used a sister team's angel for one game as a replacement for my emag when the board went haywire. The timmy was used for one game on the shocktech field. If we went manual only the trigger bounce problem would have been exagerated as we would have had to pull the trigger pins out further to make them shoot in manual at all.

Only the 3 emags died at different times (three for three, that is 100% failure rate in the rain). The angels performed flawlessly all day, even in the rain. (except for the warps which failed (allowed water to get to the balls and make them swell and jam in the feed tube this was sota expected as paintballs do not like to be wet) and had to be removed when it started raining)

[cphilip]

Originally posted by lamby
phillip:

The Emags at CUP were allowed only AFTER the trigger pins were removed. I was also told that this was only at one field. That is how our markers were setup going it this tourney. The catch 22 is what bagged us. You can't elminate trigger bounce, make your LX work correctly, and still chrono the RT valve correctly.

I know that. I was there remember? And I just got through stating it was one Ref. And so it would indeed be one field.

And yes you can crono it. Anthing that shoots can be crono'd. You will end up with a low first shot not doing the RT proceedure but that would be a whole lot preferable to setting your tank so low as you did. You SHOULD have crono'd with the rods OUT and in E Mode anyway. See? It would have been better than what you ended up doing.


And as has been stated. There are no on offs tops yet outside few hand made ones.

[lamby]

The markers should not have been able to be disqualified in the first place. That is why I said it is not a tourney level gun the way it sits.

Then I guess I should have made note of those other manufacturers markers that were disqualified last year at World Cup so we can tell them they are responsible for that now?

[PzYcO]

Originally posted by lamby

Only the 3 emags died at different times (three for three, that is 100% failure rate in the rain). The angels performed flawlessly all day, even in the rain. (except for the warps which failed (allowed water to get to the balls and make them swell and jam in the feed tube this was sota expected as paintballs do not like to be wet) and had to be removed when it started raining)


As stated before. Take out the board and replace/put back, and NOT DO IT PROPERLY, ON ANY MARKER will make it not work correctly. Use common sense. If the rain got in the warp tube, Also, That is not the warp's fault, if you got rain in your "Halo" or "Revvy" are you going to go complain to Oddssey or VL that you got water in your loader and the paintballs got swelled and didnt work? NO! Jesus christ, i just want to smack the stupid out of you.

[Dayspring]

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Unless the judge can make it bounce, it's totally legal. I've had mine for going on a year and have yet to be called for bounce and I'm running considerably more into the gun than you are (pressure wise).




Originally posted by lamby


I think you are right, but it does not matter either, there should not have been an option for him to make this "mistake" in enforcing the rules. The markers should not have been able to be disqualified in the first place. That is why I said it is not a tourney level gun the way it sits

[hitech]

Sorry you were unfairly "singled" out, but that's what happened. Other markers "ramp up" the dwell during rapid fire. How do you chrono that? If tournaments are concerned with increasing fps during rapid fire then they need a way to chrono during rapid fire. It's not the marker's fault. It's not a design flaw. It is the refs fault. The problem is that AGD has published EXACTLY how the emag works. Those with ramped dwell are a little quieter about it. ;)

[cphilip]

Sorry accidently edited yours when I ment to reply to it. Dooh! :(

[lamby]

psyco, what the heck are you talking about? this thread has nothing to do with me removing the board (which I did not do)I did not even remove the grips. I still had silicone on the hall effect holder and on the grips. The only place that I did not re-silicone was the frame to the rail, and rail to the tube.

I expected that the warps would not work in the rain as they are not designed to be water tight even though I tried to silicone that too. My revvie was also siliconed but not designed to be water tight (I am not *****ing about this either) If anything using a water soluble paintball in the rain is stupid in itself.

Dont get me wrong, The warp feed RULES!! (I felt way too loose when I was not running mine)

[lamby]

hitech:
Thank you. I agree that we were bagged and prob singled out but what can I do? the Angels were not screwed with only the Emags. Do you see why I am upset about this, and why I think it is AGDs fault? I know it was not my fault. Maybe the Ref, Maybe the marker but anyway there was nothing I could do about it.

phillip:
You can edit my posts when ever you want:D

[TheTramp]

Like some others have said, I think your problems came not from the E-Mag itself but from a ref that obviously has some sort of problem with Mags.

It seems to me that he was going to try and get your E-Mags disqualified however he could. You came with the trigger bounce "problem" solved so he tried to get you for not having them (1st I've ever heard of this tactic).

Why couldn't they just fire a string of quick shots over the crono and see what the last, and supposedly highest, shot was?

[hitech]

Originally posted by lamby
Do you see why I am upset about this...

Sure. I'd be pissed too! Actually, I'd be far more than just pissed! ;)



Originally posted by lamby
...and why I think it is AGDs fault?

That's the part I don't get. The rules are not being applied evenly to all markers. Why would that be the manufactures fault? The only "fault" of AGD's is that they are open and honest about how their markers work. Other manufactures are not. The real issue is that if they want to chrono a marker in rapid fire then that is what they need to do.

BTW, this is a recent development, as I understand it. Because of this I believe AGD is working on a solution that will remove the "reactivity" and solve the problem. It's not fixing a design flaw, but instead it's dealing with questionable rules enforcement. ;)

[lamby]

Why couldn't they just fire a string of quick shots over the crono and see what the last, and supposedly highest, shot was?I sugested that to him in the 5 min agueement that I had with the chrono ref. It was a pain in the rear. I am just glad it was only at the shocktech field. There were fields that you chrono your own marker. Only the one guy was busting my nuts and made my life hell. I am happy with the emag without the trigger pin in. I do not like to have the chance of being disqualified though. Once the new on/off is supplied I can use my marker again. Until then, I can not take that risk.

[lamby]

I have a question..

when you quote someone how do you get the "originally posted by XXXXX" line in there?

all I can get is what I get from typing "
the quote " am I doing it wrong?

Thanks

[FalconGuy016]

I dont know why some of you are so fiercly opposing lamby, almost blindly. You seem as if you are doing it just for the loyalty of AGD, with a few facts. I dont totaly agree ewith lamby, sure, but Im not about to go do what you guys did. He is right on many levels

[hitech]

Click on the QUOTE button in the post you wish to quote and you will get the correct format. Here is what it give you ([ replaced with { and ] replaced with } ):


{QUOTE}{i}Originally posted by lamby {/i}
{B}I have a question..
{/B}{/QUOTE}

[lamby]

cool, thank you hitech!!!!

[Muzikman]

This is why Manike was trying to make (and I think he did it successfully) a selector switch that could be locked into Emode. The gun is fully legal in manual mode, the gun is fully legal in Emode, it's hybrid mode that has the problems. What you need to do is make it so that it can be chonoed in Manual mode and then locked into E mode. I am not sure if this would pass the refs or not, but it seems to be the best solution. Ultimately what you need an a power switch built into the selector switch so that if it's in Emode it disabled the trigger rod (the way current Emode works), and when you flip it to manual it also cuts the power so that the HES quits working.

As for water in the gun. I have played in some serious rain and the only thing I have ever siliconed was the grip panels to the frame. I have never had a board fry because of rain, but I have had a board just plain fry.

[Miscue]

/me has a proposed solution for refs.

A little metal sleeve that says "Classic" valve on it... that slips over the RT.

:)

[cphilip]

Originally posted by FalconGuy016
I dont know why some of you are so fiercly opposing lamby, almost blindly. You seem as if you are doing it just for the loyalty of AGD, with a few facts.

Well I didn't. I clearly said it was not his fault and nor was it AGD's. I think we all know where the fault lies in this one. I say we pay that ref a visit! :D Just kidding....

[Evil Bob]

Basicly, you got caught in a series of really bad events that added up to a catastrophe:

1) Your lack of knowledge in how the trigger worked lead you down the wrong path to address the problem presented to you.
2) The ref at the chrono is sadly behind the times (by a good 2 years minimum) and needs to be brought up to speed on how to chrono the modern mags.
3) You're upset and venting and blaming everyone but yourself for the events that befell you.


Starting with #1...

lamby, quick question for you...

What prevented you from screwing the trigger rods in so that they wouldn't make contact with the trigger when set to E-mod, thereby completely eliminating trigger bounce?

The trigger rods are adjustable by design for a reason, you can screw the trigger rod into the clevis so far that it won't even touch the trigger even in hybrid mode or you can unscrew it so that it makes direct contact with the trigger is at rest and the safety is on. You can even adjust the trigger so it fires when the safety is engaged.

Sounds like a user induced problem when the trigger rods were replaced. Your lack of knowledge on how to properly tune the trigger lead you erroneously to reducing your input pressure to cure the problem, which lead to lvl 10 bolt stick problems, which lead to poor in game performance.


Moving on to #2....

The chrono judge issue....

This chrono method was designed with the classic RT valve in mind, and it had some merit 5 years ago, as the classic RT valve would add an additional 5-10 FPS when you held and quickly released the trigger as is described in the chrono method on AGDE's web site. Mine would hit 7-8 higher reliably, as long my old school was chronoed at 290 for a field limit of 300 fps, I was fine.

The original lvl 7 mag valve was rock solid over the chronos, usually with a variance of only +/- 2 fps on a well tuned mag. The classic RT valve has a smaller air chamber then the lvl 7 valve or today's ReTro and X-valves, which resulted in variances in velocity at high rates of fire.

The problem with the old classic RT valve was once it went reactive and you started bouncing, there was no way to limit how fast it cycled until centerflag and booya came out with electronic frames that fit the classic RT. It was this lack of cycling speed limitation and the smaller air chamber that caused the RT vavle to actually shoot hotter at high cycling rates. Today's valves have a larger air chamber and the spiking on long strings isn't so much of a factor, especially with electronic frames introducing physical limitations on how fast the valve can cycle.

Therefore, it is no longer required to chrono an Emag/Xmag in mechanical mode, any ref who requires you to do this is uninformed and needs a little education on the modern AutoMag.

Granted, you may have been singled out, judges/refs, like everyone else, are prone to prefering one marker over another, some people deal with it better then others, some don't.


Moving on to #3....

You're finger pointing at AGD...

You're upset and venting your spleen, that's healthy to some extent, get it out of your system.

Unfortunately, your anger is misdirected, take a quick look in the mirror and you will see who is 90% at fault. You simply did not know the markers well enough to figure out the problem when faced with it. The remaining 10% of the blame falls upon the chrono ref for enforcing a rule that didn't actually exist in the rule books and requiring you to use an outdated chrono method on your Emag. AGD is not at fault here one bit, as they announced before hand that they would not be attending PSP, you should have known you would be on your own and prepared for it accordingly by bringing backup equipment. There are many here who have had zero problems playing in the rain. I have played through british tournies in high humidity and a steady hard downpour caked in mud up to my armpits without a single hickup. Others have played tournies under similar conditions without problems. The likely source of the fried board is that you did not properly prepare the marker for wet weather operating after replacing the trigger rod at the tourny in the wet conditions.

Sorry man, you can point fingers all you want, but the blame boils down directly to the course of actions you undertook at the tourny and your lack of knowledge of how the marker functions. Had you known how to properly setup the triggers and eliminated trigger bounce, the chrono judge would not have been an issue. If you had used 10 cents worth of silicon, you would not have fried your board.

-Evil Bob

[lamby]

evil bob:

I understand the marker I shoot (at least the concept of how everthing is inter-related ie.. bounce, manual, hybrid) Granted I do not know everything about the valve but the rest I understand fully.

After installing the trigger pins I did the mentioned adjustments to drop the bounce as much as possible. I made the trigger push the pin hard enough to push on the on/off but not so hard it will fire. I could not adjust the trigger pin in any further and still allow the ref to chrono like he wanted to. The only other option I had was to adjust the tank pressure down. Granted as I said after I played on the shoctech field the second time I adjusted my input pressue back to 625-650 ish and I did not have any other problems until the rain.
I am slightly insulted with your comment that I do not know how to setup my marker. I did not mention this because it sorta is irrelevant, but I have a TL63 trigger on my marker that screws with manual mode even more than the stock hump trigger. I am tough skinned though so oh well.:cool:

I think that the whole RT function of the valve is the problem. If it was not a problem do you think AGD would be designing the new on/off assy? I think not. I may have been the one that was screwed, but I still think I had NOTHING to do with it other than that. I was stuck in an impossible position because of the reative trigger cut and dry. I dont like... Make that HATE.. the RT effect of the valve. I wanted this eliminated, I did that by removing the pin.Then I got screwed because it was not in there. It was a loose loose situation.

I could have put the pin in adjusted it "normal" then boosted my input pressure to 800 and hoped he did not chrono it to look for bounce, but when I was playing with it at 650psi (in the players area not the field) it ws EASY to "sweetspot" so I think the ref could feel it too. I wanted to be safe and not sorry. That is why I made the decision I did for our emags. As far as our team goes I feel that there is alot of knowledge there, and we are not stupid. If there was a fix action it would have been fixed. The silicone thing yea that was my fault, but it would have took to long to setup at the field. That is why this was done as soon as there was info about rain (done in the hotel the night before)

Thank you for the post though, it makes alot of sense but in our case it is not accurate

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by FalconGuy016
I dont know why some of you are so fiercly opposing lamby, almost blindly. You seem as if you are doing it just for the loyalty of AGD, with a few facts. I dont totaly agree ewith lamby, sure, but Im not about to go do what you guys did. He is right on many levels I whole heartedly agree!

[lamby]

ok all let me get something staright.

I am not here to *****.
I am not here to whine.

I am here to address a problem that I had.
My goal is not to step on peoples toes, argue, or try to defend myself to the "if AGD made it, it must be perfect" crowd.

My goal is to have AGD admit, then correct this problem period!

I thank most of you for posting, even if I dont agree with all of you ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
We looked into water proofing the boards but the stuff was carcinogenic and needed special handling proceedures. Easiest fix is to cut out a piece of heavy plastic bag and tuck in in there around the board. If the paint splashes in there it will not get to the components. Its not like you are putting the thing under water, you just need spray protection.

AGD

[Dayspring]

Good luck with that.

It's not a problem to everybody. It hasn't been until the NPPL and PSP came out ruling regarding the "bouncing" of triggers. And they are making a modification for people that are worried about it.

But having them admit that the reactive kick that their marker is based on is a flaw and are going to bend over backwards for you to fix it? Riiiight.


Originally posted by lamby
My goal is to have AGD admit, then correct this problem period!

[Frank (the spank)]

I think you were giving this "ref" too much credit. Some dork that wasn't good enough to play but still wants to be part of the show became a ref, he read somewhere that mags go full auto when you touch them and had no facts about anything,. so to act like a pro in front of his boyfriend or life partner he decided to act all offical and "pull" your E-Mag.

I'm wondering... did he stand up and do all kinds of baseball umpire moves when he declared your E-mag un-fit for play? Ya know.. like "you're outta there!!"

Couldn't you have gotten a 2nd opnion, maybe another ref that.. I dont know.. had a clue?

[Hexis]

Originally posted by lamby

I think that the whole RT function of the valve is the problem. If it was not a problem do you think AGD would be designing the new on/off assy? I think not.

I'm not quite sure how you call a design goal a flaw. Even the gun was named after the reactive trigger.

It has since become problematic, even though it's not what the anti-bounce rules are really designed to catch.

Like most things when something becomes a problem, AGD is doing something about it. They will address the issue and provide a fix that will work for most (if not all users). How can you complain about that?

[Troy]

First off I didn't read every post so don't blast me for repeating what someone else may have already said.

At world cup last year we had a judge that was very picky about trigger bounce on one of the fields. We had to turn down the output pressure almost to the point that the gun wouldn't fire. These Emags were all shot in manual mode over the chrono.

The next day we had the same field 2 times so we decided to remove the trigger rods from our guns. Problem solved. If the ref knows how to chrono a RT/Emag valve(which very few do) all you have to do is shoot a fast 3 round burst over the chrono to get the correct reading.

The Kids played this very same tournament and I haven't heard a word from them about this. I will say this though with two major series and big events almost every weekend don't expect AGD to be at every one. If one of the factory teams are there come and ask us for help. I'm not promising anything but this problem we could have solved.

Troy
AGD Lions

[Muzikman]

Actually, I think if I am reading this right, the ref didn't give him a hard time about the reactivness of his trigger, but that he wanted the trigger rod in so that the gun can be chonoed correctly. I don't see that as making the ref a bad person.

Yes there are problems with the design of the Emag, but in 1999 (or was it 2000) when this gun came out these were not flaws, but features. It's all in how the industry and governing bodies look at things. In 98, the shocker turbo was still allowed and this "turbo" was a feature. It's wasn't until 99 that NPPL took a close look at this "feature" and said that it could not be used. They are doing the same thing with trigger "bounce" now.

Again, these problems are not design flaws of the mag, but now that they rules have changed, the gun must be changed to fit within the rules, plain and simple. Will these problems be address, I would assume so, would having AGD there at PSP to fix this problem, no. Would having them there to fix the fried boards, sure as hell would.

As for waterproofing the emag, you could always do what we did in R/C cars when we wanted to run them in the rain, put the electronics in a balloon.:) As I said before, I have never had a problem with water and my emag, but I can see how it can be a problem.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Muzikman
Actually, I think if I am reading this right, the ref didn't give him a hard time about the reactivness of his trigger, but that he wanted the trigger rod in so that the gun can be chonoed correctly. I don't see that as making the ref a bad person.

Well yea it does! there is no such "RULE". Proper procedure recommended by the manufacturer that can be changed and still result in three shots firing over the chrono meets the "rules". Making something recomended for a specific marker MANDATORY for that marker IS NOT in the rules. I should be able to shoot any darn way I want to and if I pass the criteria then so be it.

The problem was this Ref knew just enough to know what was "recommended" he didn't know it was not a rule and that there are indeed other ways to crono a mag. A little knowledge is more dangerous than a LOT of knowledge...

[lamby]

Good news for me!!

Well, I powered up the emag (first time since chicago) and it is working fine. The board is not fried!! (the water that was in it did not do any perminant damage, just enough to temperarly disable it) This is very very good news for me. :D

[jaylock33]

Glad to hear your board's not fried. I haven't done any paintball tournies but I would imagine that like in the other sports I have done it's very important to know the rules for yourself if only to keep yourself from getting screwed over.

[Evil Bob]

No prob, lamby, the information you just provided gives us alot more info on your tech level and what you attempted that was not provided in the first half of this thread. It adds more credibility to your claims about what happened.

I know the TL63 trigger comes a bit closer to the body then the stock trigger does, its possible this may be where the trigger bounce problem lies. See if you can replicate the problem with the stock trigger if you still have it.

AGD is doing the new on/off to reduce trigger pull weight by 66%, reduced reaction is a byproduct and not the goal of the new addition. Tom said if they reduced the reactivity too much, it will adversely affect the cycling speed.

-Evil Bob

[IcantBelieveit]

soo uhh, can someone explaing the exact rule and what exactly the problem was, and why peopld had to remove thier trigger rod?

[Halliday]

Originally posted by Evil Bob
........Therefore, it is no longer required to chrono an Emag/Xmag in mechanical mode, any ref who requires you to do this is uninformed and needs a little education on the modern AutoMag........

-Evil Bob

Whoa! That's the first time I've ever seen that! I have always thought RT's, RTP's and E/X-Mag were to be chronied the same way.

[cphilip]

It was never "required". thats not what Evil means by using that word. It was just "best" to do it that way. You can crono them in emode you just have to adjust some and give up some so as not to get a hot shot or you might risk a blooper cold shot too. The procedure was to get the best balance of the RT valve. It was never required as a tourney requirement. It was never a "Rule".

[AutomagRT1483]

Originally posted by Miscue
/me has a proposed solution for refs.

A little metal sleeve that says "Classic" valve on it... that slips over the RT.

:)

I loving that idea:D Where can I get one of those?;)

[nerobro]

Just as an FYI, the emag will not ship with the ULE trigger. Beucase of the weight of the solinoid plunger and other parts the ULE trigger signifigantly slows down the speed the sear will return. So, no AGD wouldn't have the new on/off's for you. And they aren't even reccomended for emag use. The ULE on/offs won't be released for another month as well!

You're complaining about a part you wouldn't have been given. The only thing you MIGHT have gotten was a longer on/off pin. And you're running an aftermarket trigger anyway.

*thinks about it* If you're so concerned about reactivity. put in a stock mag on/off. that should have next to no reactivity.

[DjGruv]

The Emag needs to be cronod like an RT. So YEs the trigger rod needs to be in.

[MarkM]

Ok I have kept out of this for a while as it all had "seemed" to have calmed down than I look around and then the thread jumps back up :eek:

I was the Judge at the Cup last year, who as noted by Cphilip stopped AGD and NON AGD markers. The AGD Lions (didn't know that it was them as to me one team is just that another team) changed their input pressues and dwells to allow them to go on the field and the following day they had disabled the manual mode. The list of markers refused to be allowed on the field as set was a long one and they were made by all companies and they weren't all stopped for bouncing :). The AGD ones are just a little easier to bounce if badly setup. The problems that AGD Lions had at the chrono station were complained about at the time and the Head judge was called to the field along with Moose and the ruling upheld, a couple of other teams complained aswell and again the Head judge and or Moose was called and the ruling upheld....every time. One particular player from another team who had been stopped swapped out his marker 3 times and 3 times the "new" marker bounced...he ended up not playing that game. This judge who is being mentioned as the cause of this thread (amongst other reasons) was being over zealous. I personally want to fire an E-Mag in manual if I can't, then nor can the player so if I can't bounce it then nor can the player though some will bounce in electro only, rare but possible, in an ideal world as obviously I only get to play with the marker for a couple of minutes tops and the player knows where his trigger is set way better than me. Just thought I would throw this in the mix. As I was being mentioned, not that any of you knew I was reading it until now ;) I am equally fair or harsh (depends on your view) to every team that arrives to chrono on a field no one gets any favours...I don't travel god knows how many thousands of miles to screw over a team I "may" have read about or don't even know.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by DjGruv
The Emag needs to be cronod like an RT. So YEs the trigger rod needs to be in.

That Sir is incorrect. It should be...but it does not HAVE to be. As evident by several who have competed doing it in emode and I myself have tried it. Its not preferable but its possible and does function however a bit impared. It will get you in the game in better shape than this fellow ended up.

[magman007]

Lamby, i want to know, how do you feel comming in here and *****ing about how this marker is not "top level" when Brimstone smoke walked away with the 10 man and the Kids took the 5 man in their respective divisions? brimstone smoke has atleast 2 if not more mags on it, and we know the kids are all magged. So, i think you shouls stick your foot in your mouth regarding the part where you say it isnt top level.

[Farnja]

I dont know a lot about emags and how they work but could you not have chronoed the gun w/ the trigger rod to get the "highest rapid fire velocity" and then taken it back out for the game, the velocity wont go higher and the gun will work fine in e-mode... I am probably wrong but that sounds logical....

[cphilip]

Originally posted by MarkM
I was the Judge at the Cup last year, who as noted by Cphilip stopped AGD and NON AGD markers. The AGD Lions (didn't know that it was them as to me one team is just that another team) changed their input pressues and dwells to allow them to go on the field and the following day they had disabled the manual mode. The list of markers refused to be allowed on the field as set was a long one and they were made by all companies and they weren't all stopped for bouncing :). The AGD ones are just a little easier to bounce if badly setup. The problems that AGD Lions had at the chrono station were complained about at the time and the Head judge was called to the field along with Moose and the ruling upheld, a couple of other teams complained aswell and again the Head judge and or Moose was called and the ruling upheld....every time.


And that is all because your interpretation was correct and indeed upheld because it was correct. I have had no problems with how you handled it and even said so last year when this came up. It was evenly applied and it has always been the rule.

[TheJester]

i have worked on a micro e several times that has been threw several tournies with out a problem. the only reason he never liked it was cause pro-team would always send it back in rough condition. but to quote mike "ever since nate worked on it, it's wonderful" all i did for him was tune his lvl 10 so it wouldn't screw anything up. but this is also after 3 tournies that have been played with it by either him or other people. an emag is by all means a tournament level gun. it sounds like you kind of brought it upon yourself. i don't see why you mokeyed with everything, the emag trigger is easy enough to walk, why not just spend that time to tune your trigger pull a little more so you don't rely on hybrid and use the e only mode, or hell, don't be a wuss and just use the mechanical. i still fail to see where this is AGD's fault

[MarkM]

Originally posted by cphilip



And that is all because your interpretation was correct and indeed upheld because it was correct. I have had no problems with how you handled it and even said so last year when this came up. It was evenly applied and it has always been the rule.

Thanks for the kind words...and to be honest I didn't recall you saying so at the time but then it was hellishly hot ;) I only replied to the thread to give my side of things as the subject had been brought up, you yourself had already said it was done even handed but then how often does one post get ignored in a heated thread? I will be over again for the Cup, so drop by and say hi.

[cphilip]

Oh not at the field Mark. But next year I will introduce myself.

It was when I got back from Florida and it came up here on the forums. At WC I would have not associated with you for fear of reprisal! :D Just kidding ya mate.

[MarkM]

Originally posted by cphilip
Oh not at the field Mark. But next year I will introduce myself.

It was when I got back from Florida and it came up here on the forums. At WC I would have not associated with you for fear of reprisal! :D Just kidding ya mate.

Thats ok, I heard what was being said about me on the Tech stand ;) Handy being trade connected isn't it ;) more so when I am wearing "civvies". See ya in October.

[lamby]

Jester:

You have no idea what this complant is about do you? I use e-mode I pulled the trigger pins out so there was no possibility of bounce. I was screwed with this "bounce issue" in a small tourney before I got the flatline and could adjust my input pressure. That mostly fixed it bet better to be safe than sorry. I do not know about the x mags that the kids shoot but I do know that a lot of the teams that use e/x mags pulled the pins out so they are not screwed with. If I could disable the annoying RT effect I would but I can't so here is my problem. The ref MADE me put the god forsaken pin back in our 3 mags. Now the RT effect is back.

I think there is a good chance that I could have walked on the field the second time and had my pressure to 800 with the pin in without a problem but I did not want to take the chance. Because I know that bounce could {and rightfully so} disqualify our markers. I am not risking loosing 3 markers when we only had a 2 good spares (a cocker and a timmy) and an RTpro that would have had the same problem.

The failure is the interpritation of the rules: "trigger bounce" or "one shot per pull" (the one that will bag reactive triggers). Because without releasing pressure on the trigger it can "run away".

I think all markers based on reactive triggers should be banned straight out unless it is disabled (like removing the pin on an emag)It would make the rule much more enforcable and prevent teams like ours from getting screwed.

I will prob keep my emag, but as I said before, there will be a new marker in my arsonal that is not wearing AGD insignal. I am thinking a nice angel IR3/Speed should work just fine.. And I will never have to worry about "trigger bounce" or "one shot per pull" rules again. I can plan for a game instead of wasting an hour trying to make some ref happy just so we can use our markers.

Just a quick comment for magman,
There was always the chance that the ref could have been on the kids nuts too if the timing would have been right. He picked us to screw with; and he was right to do so. Maybe the kids lucked out. Next time I see Andy and Jason I will ask them what happened.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by lamby
He picked us to screw with; and he was right to do so.

Ok one last time....

No he was not. He should have allowed you to take the rods out and crono that way. Period. It's within the rules.

Reactive triggers realy have nothing to do with it. Bounce can be induced with them and can be cured from them.

[DjGruv]

Originally posted by cphilip


That Sir is incorrect. It should be...but it does not HAVE to be. As evident by several who have competed doing it in emode and I myself have tried it. Its not preferable but its possible and does function however a bit impared. It will get you in the game in better shape than this fellow ended up.


Then maybe you can explain that to every ref at every tourny I play in.

[lamby]

philip,

I hear you. It does not address the problem that it is happening and needs to end; be it a rule change that allows fully auto markers {will never happen}, or a total ban on reactive triggers. Either way I feel that I was screwed I still think mostly by AGD and partially by the ref. I think if I wad to enforce the rules I would have done the same thing he did. There is good chance, seeing and using other peoples emags, that I would prob dq most of them.

There is a guarenteed way to boot a emag if you wanted to...

1.) Put the gun in hybrid with the electronics on
2.) Pull the trigger real slow. It will fire electronicly, keep pulling the trigger slowly. it will fire again if the trigger pin is in and set out far enought that the marker works in manual mode!!

your marker just shot two balls in one trigger pull, and should be disqualified. It is sorta retarded because you have to pull the trigger so slowly but it is there {I talked to Tom about this too in person and on these forums}.. YET ANOTHER REASON to have the pin out. And another reason the marker needs to be reworked for pure tourney players like me.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by DjGruv



Then maybe you can explain that to every ref at every tourny I play in.

Now come on... EVERY REF IN EVERY TOURNEY? Never happened. I am certain its never come up in EVERY Tourney. But even if it did they flat out wrong. Ask em to show you it in the rules were it specifically address's a RT Mag and how it must be crono'd, Or even mentions an RT Mag trigger rod. Or for that matter mentions a Mag at all. Rules are Manufacturer blind. And they address what is a legal marker. I have never seen a specific marker mentioned in ANY rules I have ever read. It ain't there and any good ref outfit will pull the book out on you if he has a rule. Or he is not doing his job. There is no such reference nor requirement. Some fields make up rules as they go along. Without rhime or reason. But not proffesional events. They use NPPL or derived from NPPL definitons. I read em all and it's not there.

Even the proposed bounce rules are not there yet. And everyone is just interpreting the single shot single pull rules so far. Any possible way that you can make a marker pass that and which can not be reversed on the field without tools (which is illegal to carry on) is legal. And if it passes chrono then and shoots within the limits on and off its legal. Simple as that. Thats the rules. And those should be the rules. There is no need to redefine them or complicate them. Its fair for all. People doing these tournamets need to study the rules if they are overthinking these things.

[cphilip]

PSP Chrono rules copied and pasted...

PRE GAME CHRONOGRAPHING
3.21. All games will be preceded by a pregame chronographing session, pursuant to which each player on each team will be chronographed.
3.22. Multiple chronographs may be designated for each playing field so that in the event that a chronograph is not working, one which was available to the teams can be substituted.
3.23. The chrono judge will take a marker from a player and inspect it for the following:
(1) the presence of foreign matter in the barrel, feed port or loader;
(2) tightness of screws, barrel, tank and other working parts which can increase or decrease velocity;
(3) presence of valves or expansion chambers which can be turned on or off; all valves will be placed in the fully
open position;
(4) presence of external velocity adjusters which are not covered or fixed in place; and
(5) any other device, part or item which would enable a player to increase the muzzle velocity of the marker on the
game field without resorting to the use of tools.
3.24. Players whose markers do not pass such inspection will be informed and will be given an opportunity to remedy the situation, time permitting.
3.25. Players whose markers pass such inspection will step to the chronograph, and the chronograph judge shall chronograph the marker as it would or could be fired effectively on the game field at its maximum velocity. The chrono judge will fire three shots over the chronograph.
3.26. Markers will pass inspection if the average of the three shots is less than 295 feet per second and no one shot is greater than 300 feet per second.
3.27. Players whose markers do not pass such inspection will be so informed and will be given an opportunity to remedy the situation, time permitting.
3.28. All players whose markers have not passed the chronograph may elect to enter the field without a marker or be counted as eliminated.

It aint there!

Definitions of Markers... and guess what no mention of a Trigger rod being required! Again copied and pasted...

MARKERS
5.21. The definition of a trigger is the moveable lever or button that comes in contact with the finger. The contacts of a switch are not a trigger. A trigger pull requires an exertion of force by the finger on the trigger and a release of force by the finger on the trigger during every firing cycle. Markers may fire at any rate of fire, and may shoot any number of paintballs, provided that it fires in semi auto or pump mode only, which means that no more than one paintball is discharged during each firing cycle.
5.22. Players may use a single, 68 caliber, pump or semi automatic paintball marker, which consists of a single barrel, a single trigger. Double action triggers and paintball markers capable of firing in other than semi auto or pump mode are prohibited.
5.23. All markers with any form of external velocity adjusters must be modified in such a way that the velocity adjuster is not readily accessible during the course of the game. Depending upon make or model of the markers, some may require beaver tails and/or tournament caps or may require multiple tournament caps. All regulators require tournament caps such that they cannot be adjusted without a tool with the gun gassed or degassed.
5.24. All markers are subject to inspection at any time during and within three days after an PSP Tournament, provided that the markers are taken for inspection prior to such tournament’s completion, and the team of any player found to be using a marker in violation of this Section 5.2 shall have all points amassed up to the point of such discovery removed, and such team will no longer be allowed to continue to participate in the tournament.
5.25. Gun barrels may be equipped with porting, slots and/or rifling, but may not have a sound suppressor attached or integral to the construction of the barrel. Only one barrel will be allowed on the field.
5.26. Players may wear a remote tank hook-up. The remote line may not be worn underneath clothing.
5.27. Players may not use cloth, neoprene, or other material to cover the paint loaders on the marker. Cloth and neoprene tanks covers will be allowed.
5.28. Guns must have a barrel sock over their barrel at all times the gun is in a goggle safe area.

So show them that and see what they gotta say. Far as I am concerned the argument is over on that one.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
3.25. Players whose markers pass such inspection will step to the chronograph, and the chronograph judge shall chronograph the marker as it would or could be fired effectively on the game field at its maximum velocity. The chrono judge will fire three shots over the chronograph.


I think that says it all. The ref targeted the emags WITHOUT following the rules. I think that would also cover the very slow two shot "problem". The key word is effectively.

[cphilip]

Excellent point Hi! He could not require a rod cause its not a defined thing that is needed to define a marker system. A triger is but not a trigger ROD. It should have been allowed to take it out and then proceed to the field and played that way. It's the rules! :eek:

[pito189]

First off, lamby quit saying "trigger pin" it makes it sound like you took the trigger out. "trigger rod" is the correct term.

I have run, and will continue to run my E-Mag at 650 psi, using my Max Flow. If you were skipping shoots at 625, maybe you should get your Flatline looked out. Perhaps it is not working correctly, starving the valve.

Other than that. It's just tough luck, mark it up to Murphy's law, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and move on. :)

[845]

You should have played NPPL. PSP is all about the $$$. You should definately have argue with the ref. When refs act stupid make a big deal about it and bring in superiors, owners etc they will usually back down (if you are right of course).

[Troy]

lamby

How exactly did AGD screw you? If you read my previous post it answers your problem with this ref.

[billmi]

Originally posted by cphilip
Meph, this issue is not his fault. It's entirely on that Ref. He required something that cannot be required.

No, he required something that is required.

The proceedure for chronographing an RT valve paintgun with chronographs in common use today requires holding the sear back with the trigger then releasing fast and firing. This proceedure was defined by Airgun Designs and is accepted by major tournament series (NPPL, PSP, IAO, Pan Am, etc.)

This method is required to get a reading of the maximum velocity at which the gun will fire.

Since Frankie "Bag-o-donuts" was the chrono judge on the Shocktech field, and he knows the proceedure, he was requiring it.

If you do not use this method, the gun will chronograph at a velocity that is lower than the velocity it achieves while rapid firing. The alternative is using a chronograph that can measure the velocity of individual shots in a string. Due to cost and complexity, these are not in common use at most paintball tournaments (NXL is now using one) which is the reason AGD developed the hold and pull proceedure for the RT equipped 'mags.

To remove the trigger rod makes this method of chronographing impossible, and leaves a situation where a gun that chronos under 300 fps will shoot at over 300 fps during actual game play.

The problem arose because the gun was modified by the user from its original factory design (a part was removed.)

I have discussed the trigger legalities of the E-Mag with Bill Cookston, the Ultimate Judge for the PSP, IAO (and previously NPPL) and he's had no problem with the E-Mag trigger, as long as it was not adjusted down to the point where it became a runaway trigger in E, manual, or hybrid mode. As it ships stock, unless fed abnormally high pressure, the E-Mag is a legal gun. The problems arise when players tweak the trigger trying to get it close to the edge of what is legal. Sometimes they go past that edge. It seems silly to me that when someone takes a working, tourney legal gun, and then tweaks it to where it either no longer works (in the case with a lot of 'cocker tweaking that gives the gun a reputation of needing lots of work) or is no longer tourney legal, that they then turn around and blame the manufacturer and or tournament referees for the situation.

As for Meph's statement that a comparison of AGD to other companies who did have factory techs at the event by someone who didn't pony up the cash to pay for AGD to make an appearance... Why would paying for AGD to make an appearance come into play? The other paintgun manufacturers who did have techs on site didn't require players to pay a couple thousand dollars extra for their techs to be there.

As to where AGD does send techs, that's their business, IMHO. It doesn't make sense to send factory techs to an event where very few of their customers are. I don't expect them to show up at my local field where there are only a handfull of 'mags. Why should they go through the expense of sending a crew to service a similar number of guns anywhere else? IMHO, the dynamics of their market are changing, and there are probably more effective ways (both in terms of increased sales for AGD, and better support for their customers) than sending techs to every paintball tournament in the US.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

PSP Rules: http://www.pspevents.com/images/header/PSP_Rules_2003.pdf


3.25. Players whose markers pass such inspection will step to the chronograph, and the chronograph judge shall chronograph the marker as it would or could be fired effectively on the game field at its maximum velocity. The chrono judge will fire three shots over the chronograph.


In order to fire an Automag which has a ReTro valve as it could or would be fired effectively on the game field the referee must minimize the time between the opening of the on/off valve and the firing of the shot. This is necessary in order for the air in the accumulator to still be hot from atabiatic compression (the pressure will be higher when it is hotter) and deliver the maximum velocity under the gun's current settings.

Airgun Designs has defined the proceedure for chronographing 'mags with the RT and published it both online and in print:

http://www.airgun.com/rtchrono.shtml

The proper proceedure according to Airgun Designs for chronographing an Automag with an RT (ReTro, E-Mag, X-Mag, etc.) valve:



To record your highest rapid fire velocity:-
Fire a paintball and hold the trigger back.
Then release the trigger completely, and fire the next paintball as quickly as possible, once again holding the trigger back.
Repeat as necessary.
This procedure will simulate rapid fire, thus recording your highest possible rapid fire velocity.


To remove the factory installed trigger rod makes it impossible to perform this proceedure properly. If the paintgun can not be chronographed properly, it won't be allowed on the field.

Similarly if another paintgun of any other brand were modified in a way that the judge knew that they could not get a chronograph reading to accurately reflect the velocity "as it would or could be fired effectively on the game field," it would not be allowed either, whether that modification involved removal of a trigger rod, a velocity lock, changing of dwell times, etc. The rule does not need to specify trigger rods, because it specifies the way the gun can be fired on the field, and AirGun Designs has clearly defined the proceedure needed to measure the velocity to accurately reflect the velocities their product can achieve on the field.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by 845
You should have played NPPL. PSP is all about the $$$.

Can you please explain how that comes into play?
How does being "all about the $$$" affect the decision of a referee to require that the proceedure for chronographing a paintgun which is defined by the own paintgun's manufacturer?
Why is the one of the two leagues which costs less, per player to compete in make it "all about the $$$?"

[billmi]

Originally posted by Frank (the spank)
I think you were giving this "ref" too much credit. Some dork that wasn't good enough to play but still wants to be part of the show became a ref, he read somewhere that mags go full auto when you touch them and had no facts about anything,. so to act like a pro in front of his boyfriend or life partner he decided to act all offical and "pull" your E-Mag.


Seeing as how Frankie (chrono ref on the Shocktech field in Chicago) plays for Shocktech in both the NPPL and PSP, your statement that he isn't good enough to play is incorrect.

Since he was requiring that the guns be chronographed by the proceedure recommended by Airgun Designs, he clearly showed an understanding of the equipment and had facts about it.

You comment that he has a boyfriend or "life parnter." What, if anything about his decision to require that a paintgun be chronographed by AGD's recommended proceedure implys that he is homosexual? If he was homosexual would that affect his ability to be a referee? Does a referee need to engage in heterosexual relationships in order to chronograph a paintgun? Can a heterosexualy oriented male who has never engaged in sex (i.e. a straight virgin) still be hired as a referee? Whatabout Christians, Jews, asians or blacks? Are they acceptable, or does race and religion have as much an effect on the ability of a ref to do their job as you portray sexual orientation to have?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[rpm07]

here here you tell him Bill

[Spaceman613]

Bravo Mr. Mills!

and Thanks for spending all the time in that lil tent with the computer also. Every time I went to say hello, you were way to busy to disturb.

[Dayspring]

Bill Mills.

OWNAGE!

[billmi]

Originally posted by Spaceman613
Bravo Mr. Mills!

and Thanks for spending all the time in that lil tent with the computer also. Every time I went to say hello, you were way to busy to disturb.

Thank you very much. I've always got time to say hi. Maybe not much more than hi, but at least hi. Same for Dawn who works twice as hard as I do when we're at tournaments. I think most folks don't know the behind the scenes work we do at some of the events - from managing to fully running the scoreboard, scheduling the games, etc. to help make sure it goes smoothly for the players, so what thanks we get is greatly appreciated. It's the thanks and knowing that what we are doing makes a difference for people that make it worthwhile, and sometimes it's only the people who want to gripe about something that bother to speak up (a guy at the PSP Vegas tournament who lived in Vegas grouched at me for 5 minute about how we never update WARPIG because it still showed only the LA Open - turns out he wasn't going to our site, but following a link from someone else's site that linked to our coverage of the LA Open :-P .)

If you live in or around Chicago, come on out to the Bad Boyz Toyz WARPIG roast and sale in early September. It's a party in the Lansing BBT shop that goes all weekend long with a free roast pork and turkey dinner on Saturday night while they have a sale in the store. BBT brings in lots of follks from all over just to hang out and meet with people (me and Dawn, Keely Watson, players from Aftershock and Shocktech, etc.) Last couple of years Tom Kaye has come out and we had a mini AO-meet during the dinner. Last year even Manike made it (he had a convention in town that week for work.) Much fun to be had and plenty of time to socialize.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Spaceman613]

Ive bought stuff from ya at BBT for the past 2 years at the roast. The moldy Bananna cocker is mine. :)

Where else can I find someone who knows of Doc Nickel, Al Mollick, and all of the other fun topics that arnt as common on here.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Spaceman613
Where else can I find someone who knows of Doc Nickel, Al Mollick, and all of the other fun topics that arnt as common on here.

I was about a week short of entering into buisness with al mollick 3 years ago. Something about al's porno and paintball made me uneasy.

And bill.. where were you hiding. I was going to try and snag you and dawn to hit one of very good and cheap local eaterys... Ask around if anyone has heard of Johnnies beef, or Russells! (You've been more than courteous to me in the past ;-) I figured I'd return the favor by showing youteh good places to eat within a mile of the PSP... *snifffles* )

[hitech]

Bill, I must respectively disagree with your interpretation of the rules (and I do have a lot of respect for you). An emag without a trigger rod is legal unless there is a rule against modifying a marker from it's factory configuration then removing the trigger rod in and of itself it legal. Now, the procedure put forth by AGD is an attempt to simulate what can happen during rapid fire with the RT valve. I see nothing in the rules that require this procedure. As long as a modified marker is allowed, it has all the parts that are required by the rules then it is legal. It's up to the chrono judge to chrono it as it could or would be fired effectively on the game field. Want to chrono it as it would be used? Rapid fire and then fire over the chrono. As I understand it other markers increase the dwell during rapid fire (even if not a factory "feature", it could easily be changed by the user). Since the manufacturer(s) have not published procedures for simulating that situation, how do you chrono those markers? How do the tournament directors insure that other markers do not increase in velocity during rapid fire? Because the manufacturer has not stated they will? If one marker is going to be checked for increased velocity during rapid fire, they all must be checked.

As long as modifying a marker from its factory configuration is allowed, the removal of the trigger rod is legal. The suggested chrono procedure from AGD to simulate rapid fire cannot be required. Other methods of achieving the desired results must be used. If you are going to check makers for increased velocity during rapid fire, then all markers must be checked.

[Troy]

I didn't know it was Frankie, and here I thought he didn't even know how to oil his mag when he play with us:p

[Dayspring]

Simple solution in my eyes.

Take trigger rod out and chrono a bit lower than you normally would. (Not anywhere NEAR bleeding edge- 299fps)

When you do get into rapid fire, it will jump a bit in FPS. You'll be right on track there.

[Muzikman]

Hitech: As far as the piece of paper I got in my emag that said how to chrono it, (I knew befor then, but this is the first time I ever actually seen it in writing) it really didn't say it was the "Suggested" way of chronoing the gun, but that it is the correct way. The ref is obligated to chrono the gun correctly. If AGD would have never said "This is the correct way to chrono an RT" then no one would have been the wiser and this would be a non issue. But since they did, this should be the process falled by all fields and refs on how to safely chrono the gun.

[DjGruv]

Originally posted by billmi


No, he required something that is required.

The proceedure for chronographing an RT valve paintgun with chronographs in common use today requires holding the sear back with the trigger then releasing fast and firing. This proceedure was defined by Airgun Designs and is accepted by major tournament series (NPPL, PSP, IAO, Pan Am, etc.)

This method is required to get a reading of the maximum velocity at which the gun will fire.

Since Frankie "Bag-o-donuts" was the chrono judge on the Shocktech field, and he knows the proceedure, he was requiring it.

If you do not use this method, the gun will chronograph at a velocity that is lower than the velocity it achieves while rapid firing. The alternative is using a chronograph that can measure the velocity of individual shots in a string. Due to cost and complexity, these are not in common use at most paintball tournaments (NXL is now using one) which is the reason AGD developed the hold and pull proceedure for the RT equipped 'mags.

To remove the trigger rod makes this method of chronographing impossible, and leaves a situation where a gun that chronos under 300 fps will shoot at over 300 fps during actual game play.

The problem arose because the gun was modified by the user from its original factory design (a part was removed.)

I have discussed the trigger legalities of the E-Mag with Bill Cookston, the Ultimate Judge for the PSP, IAO (and previously NPPL) and he's had no problem with the E-Mag trigger, as long as it was not adjusted down to the point where it became a runaway trigger in E, manual, or hybrid mode. As it ships stock, unless fed abnormally high pressure, the E-Mag is a legal gun. The problems arise when players tweak the trigger trying to get it close to the edge of what is legal. Sometimes they go past that edge. It seems silly to me that when someone takes a working, tourney legal gun, and then tweaks it to where it either no longer works (in the case with a lot of 'cocker tweaking that gives the gun a reputation of needing lots of work) or is no longer tourney legal, that they then turn around and blame the manufacturer and or tournament referees for the situation.

As for Meph's statement that a comparison of AGD to other companies who did have factory techs at the event by someone who didn't pony up the cash to pay for AGD to make an appearance... Why would paying for AGD to make an appearance come into play? The other paintgun manufacturers who did have techs on site didn't require players to pay a couple thousand dollars extra for their techs to be there.

As to where AGD does send techs, that's their business, IMHO. It doesn't make sense to send factory techs to an event where very few of their customers are. I don't expect them to show up at my local field where there are only a handfull of 'mags. Why should they go through the expense of sending a crew to service a similar number of guns anywhere else? IMHO, the dynamics of their market are changing, and there are probably more effective ways (both in terms of increased sales for AGD, and better support for their customers) than sending techs to every paintball tournament in the US.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills




:D Well put!!

[billmi]

Hitech,

It's absolutely fine to disagree with me. That's the basis of debate and discussion.

You've hit on two very good points.

The first centers around "as it could or would be fired effectively on the game field."

The proceedure AGD has specified is designed to get the valve to function over the type of chronographs used, the same as it functions when rapid fired in the field. As used in the field, when rapid firing, the valve has a short recharge time. That is how the RT valve is to be chronographed, with a short recharge time, because that is how it is used in the field. That can either be done by taking the velocity of a single ball during a rapid fired string, or by the method outlined by AGD.

The problem, as I understand it, with the radar chronographs presently used, is that working on the doppler shift of the radar reflection, they don't work properly on measuring velocity during a string of shots. As I understand it, that is the whole reason for AGD's method, rather than simply suggesting that a rapid string of shots be fired at the chrono.

Knowing that the E-Mags *will* increase velocity on the field compared to a single shot in E mode, I believe it not only a rules issue, but a safety responsibility issue to not allow them on the field without chronoing them properly. The manufacturer has explained how the standard proceedure does not accurately reflect the velocity reached on the field, and that same manufacturer provides the simple method for accurately measuring that max velocity with the existing chrono equipment. To do otherwise is knowingly putting a hot gun on the field, and that is in my opinion irresponsible and unsafe.

Your other main point - is it fair to test the 'mag as accurately as possible when other paintguns *might* have a velocity ramp-up problem? If/when other paintguns can be proven to have a velocity ramp up problem a method for testing them at the tournament needs to be developed just as it was for the 'mags. The NXL has been testing guns used in NXL matches and not been finding others to have velicity ramp up problems. Similarly if any other method, be it pressing on a cocking rod that isn't protected by a beaver tail, twisting an unlocked reg, or holding down the trigger before firing will increase the velocity, it should be done by the chrono judge. In some cases there will be methods the judge won't know about that might have an effect. It's in his/her best interest to learn as many of these methods as possible, and he/she would be irresponsible not to employ them when testing.

The best answer for the long term is, in my opinion updating the testing equipment used on the fields. At present there are optical chronos that can do the job. They are unfortunately dependant on the environment and operator skill to the point that they aren't practical for a series like the PSP. They are also much more expensive, and much less durable than the Paintball Radar Chron chronographs. The NXL is currently using a high end (just under $1,000) chrono for testing guns that are challenged on shoot-up issues, and has also been simply spot checking guns between matches for velocity behavior over multi-shot strings.

While I don't know of any paintguns in which the legitimate factory installed software ramps up dwell time (which isn't to say they don't exist,) the possibility of custom software doing that as a cheat, something not detected in the current system, and not detectable by a visible inspection of the boards, means that the current system is going to have to change and adapt to keep up with technology.

In 1999 I suggested what I believe will ultimately be the solution (and something that at least one league is working towards right now) and that is on-gun chronograph technology, so that a compact, lightweight device clips onto the player's barrel and measures the velocity of every shot fired during the game. Hot shots set off an alarm - it won't matter what shoot up or down charactaristics are or what hidden modes there might be to cheat a pre or post game chrono. Shoot hot during the game, and bam you're penalized. That is, in my opinion, the only practical way to catch a hidden cheater mode in electronics that would do something like increase dwell time after a secret sequence is tapped out on the trigger.

In the short term, the tournament operators (and field operators for that matter) have to work with the tools available to them. Any way they can use those tools to measure the maximum velocity a paintgun will be fired on the field can and must be used. In the case of the e-mag, which has a known ramp-up issue, and a known way to measure it given the equipment available, allowing sometome to disassemble it to a way that makes that test impossible is not acceptable. In a similar vein, I've seen a ref refuse an Angel LCD with a blank display screen - the reasoning being that with out the display working there was no way to tell if the gun were unlocked to where the dwell time could be adjusted on the field. The rules don't require that a gun have a functional LCD screen - but that component to that particular paintgun was necessary to ensure that another part of the rules was being followed, just as the trigger rod is neccesary in an E-Mag to properly chronograph it with the equipment in common use today.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by Dayspring
Simple solution in my eyes.

Take trigger rod out and chrono a bit lower than you normally would. (Not anywhere NEAR bleeding edge- 299fps)

When you do get into rapid fire, it will jump a bit in FPS. You'll be right on track there.

That's the crux of the problem.

The velocity will rise with rapid firing, but the chronos most common in use today won't properly measure it. To properly measure it with the chronos used, the trigger rod must be there to use the AGD approved method. A responsible chrono judge will know about the AGD approved method and in order to use that method he/she will need to test the gun with the trigger rod in place.

Since the rod is not quickly removable, it's not practical to test with the rod and then pop it out for use on the field.

IMHO, the simpler method, and the one I have followed is to not adjust the trigger to the point that it is a runaway trigger in hybrid mode. Then there aren't any trigger issues, and there's no problem chronoing it by the approved method. As shipped stock the E-Mag has no problems with the chrono or trigger bounce issues - it's after over-tuning the trigger that there are bounce problems. If someone then takes out the rod to avoid the bounce problem they then have the chrono problem.

The long term answer, is improved chrono technology.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[hitech]

Bill,

I enjoy a good debate. However, not everyone does and I've got my butt in a sling over it more than once. Just ask my wife. ;)

Thanks for the update. I don't participate in tournaments anymore, but enjoy hearing about the recent developments. Tournament rules and their application is my favorite subject (my first carrier choice was law, but computer programming was so much easier ;) ). I very much enjoy the chance to discuss this. I like your chrono idea. It obviously has details to work out, but in theory it's a great idea. And since it’s a safety issue as well, it's one that should be seriously looked at. Personally, I'd like to see it change into a barrel blocking device if the velocity exceeded a certain amount, or the number of "hot" shoots exceeded a certain amount.

Okay, enough brown nosing... ;)

I agree that an RT valved marker should be checked for increased velocity during rapid fire. However, just because we know that they have this tendency and other markers have not shown it doesn't mean all other markers should not be checked. It's the same as checking for "trigger bounce". We shouldn't only check those that have shown the ability to bounce. Every marker should be checked.

In the case of the Angel without a working LCD. They we checking for lockout of features that are not allowed in a tournament. All other markers must also be checked for lockout of these features. Since every marker is checked for the same things, it's not the same thing to me.

RT valved markers are checked for "shoot up" because they are known to have it and as configured from the factory they can be checked. Other manufactures don’t provide the necessary parts to check this. Shouldn't they be required to? What if AGD manufactured an electronic only emag? Would that be illegal because you couldn't check for "shoot up"?

I understand that there are equipment issues. We have to work with the equipment at hand. However, we still need to check every marker. Since the other markers can't be checked in the same manner as an RT valved marker, another procedure needs to be available. For the emag without a trigger rod couldn't you rapid fire the marker to increase the temperature of the dump champer (not within the "field of view" of the chrono) and then quickly fire a shot over the chrono?

In conclusion, I strongly believe that the rules have to be applied evenly to all players/equipment. Procedures and equipment needs to be up to doing this. Anything else is giving an unfair advantage to someone.

[BlackVCG]

I haven't really seen it mentioned already, but I apologize if somebody already has done so.

In the RT chronograph procedure manual, it is mentioned, "At lower input pressures, all benefits of the fast recharge regulator diminish and the regulator acts like the regulator on a 68AUTOMAG."

Now, we all know that the AIR valve does not require any special chronographing procedure because its recharge rate is slow enough that it can't get shoot-up.

So, with that, would it be possible to ammend the chronographing procedure and say that those with inputs of 650psi(example) or less do not need to chronograph in mechanical mode? Granted, you do run into issues of gauges being off, especially micro-gauges and most people run preset tanks to begin with.

Since I really haven't seen it being discussed, I thought I'd bring this up since some people are acting as though the RT valve needs to be modified to eliminate the fast recharge rate so it can be chronographed without the trigger rod.

[Wc Keep]

Originally posted by billmi
Hitech,



While I don't know of any paintguns in which the legitimate factory installed software ramps up dwell time (which isn't to say they don't exist,) the possibility of custom software doing that as a cheat, something not detected in the current system, and not detectable by a visible inspection of the boards, means that the current system is going to have to change and adapt to keep up with technology.

In 1999 I suggested what I believe will ultimately be the solution (and something that at least one league is working towards right now) and that is on-gun chronograph technology, so that a compact, lightweight device clips onto the player's barrel and measures the velocity of every shot fired during the game. Hot shots set off an alarm - it won't matter what shoot up or down charactaristics are or what hidden modes there might be to cheat a pre or post game chrono. Shoot hot during the game, and bam you're penalized. That is, in my opinion, the only practical way to catch a hidden cheater mode in electronics that would do something like increase dwell time after a secret sequence is tapped out on the trigger.



i think thats an interesting way of keeping track of chronoing. but it would cost money that either the tournament promotor or the players/sponsors would have to shell out. and i dont think they would want to shell out that much.

if lamby doesnt used hybrid, and doesnt want to be hassled about it, why didnt he buy a classic valve and use that in his gun. it would still recharge fast enough without spiking up.

[Frank (the spank)]

Originally posted by billmi


Seeing as how Frankie (chrono ref on the Shocktech field in Chicago) plays for Shocktech in both the NPPL and PSP, your statement that he isn't good enough to play is incorrect.

So why wasn't he playing? :)


Originally posted by billmi
Since he was requiring that the guns be chronographed by the proceedure recommended by Airgun Designs, he clearly showed an understanding of the equipment and had facts about it.

I never talked about chronoing the gun, I talked about having to remove the trigger rod because he thought in hybrid mode the trigger would bounce. You quoted my post in your reply, did you even read it? Did you read the part about "touching the gun and it goes full auto"??? What do you do in your off time, sell paper hats? And before you reply, my resume has IBM, Intel and currently Apple Computer on it, Billy.



Originally posted by billmi
You comment that he has a boyfriend or "life parnter." What, if anything about his decision to require that a paintgun be chronographed by AGD's recommended

Again.. trigger rod being removed, not "shoot up" as I was addressing in my post. I agree that you have to hold the trigger back and snap a shot as fast as you can to simulate rapid fire over the chrono, you're not telling me anything new. What I DON'T agree with was how this clown assumed this player was going to CHEAT. Innocent until proven guilty? Did this "ref" shoot the gun and try and bounce the trigger? No... he looked at it, said "thats a mag and it does full auto!" and made this guy yank apart his gun.



Originally posted by billmi
proceedure implys that he is homosexual? If he was homosexual would that affect his ability to be a referee?

I don't know, but since you seem to know more about homosexuals than I then please clue me in on if they would be fit to chronograph a paintgun. Ya know since I wasn't worried about the proper way to chronograph a paintgun.


Originally posted by billmi
See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

Not if I see you first sugar pants. :D

Billy didn't "own" anything in his reply, he only made himself look like a bigger dork than me. Now that's accomplishing something! I really can't respect someone that can't spell "procedure" or "Implies" either, IE not Y, Billy. Sheesh.. cheer him on fan boys!!

[Mook564]

Originally posted by hitech
Bill, I must respectively disagree with your interpretation of the rules (and I do have a lot of respect for you). An emag without a trigger rod is legal unless there is a rule against modifying a marker from it's factory configuration then removing the trigger rod in and of itself it legal. Now, the procedure put forth by AGD is an attempt to simulate what can happen during rapid fire with the RT valve. I see nothing in the rules that require this procedure. As long as a modified marker is allowed, it has all the parts that are required by the rules then it is legal. It's up to the chrono judge to chrono it as it could or would be fired effectively on the game field. Want to chrono it as it would be used? Rapid fire and then fire over the chrono. As I understand it other markers increase the dwell during rapid fire (even if not a factory "feature", it could easily be changed by the user). Since the manufacturer(s) have not published procedures for simulating that situation, how do you chrono those markers? How do the tournament directors insure that other markers do not increase in velocity during rapid fire? Because the manufacturer has not stated they will? If one marker is going to be checked for increased velocity during rapid fire, they all must be checked.

As long as modifying a marker from its factory configuration is allowed, the removal of the trigger rod is legal. The suggested chrono procedure from AGD to simulate rapid fire cannot be required. Other methods of achieving the desired results must be used. If you are going to check makers for increased velocity during rapid fire, then all markers must be checked.


I totaly agree with you on this. Also,I never thought it would be to hard to fire a few quick shots over a chrono.

[BradPalooza]

Ha ha ha. Way to go Frank.

I once heard someone say "I feel like I only open my mouth to change feet"...

Does anyone else want the chance to fill you in on who you're ripping to shreds or should I?

-Brad

[cphilip]

Bill I hate to disagree with you but the Emag can be "Properly" cronographed without the rod under the rules. Interjecting the manufacturers prefered procedeure has not anything to do with it "Properly" being cronographed. If it did it would be in the rules. Prefered maybe but Proper by rules? No...

[Frank (the spank)]

Originally posted by BradPalooza


Does anyone else want the chance to fill you in on who you're ripping to shreds or should I?



Is it the guy that can't read or comprehend a simple post? Or is it the guy that spells "Implies" with a Y? ::snickers::

Oh wait... he writes for the nationally accredited WarPig.com and APG magazine, right? Thanks for noticing that I was "ripping him to shreds", cause I thought so too.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by BradPalooza
Ha ha ha. Way to go Frank.

I once heard someone say "I feel like I only open my mouth to change feet"...

Does anyone else want the chance to fill you in on who you're ripping to shreds or should I?

-Brad

Let's just face it, kids today have no respect for people they should. And I would hope he knew who he was talking to, it's right in Bill's sig.


Orignially posted by Frank (the spank)

What do you do in your off time, sell paper hats? And before you reply, my resume has IBM, Intel and currently Apple Computer on it, Billy.

Umm...cool...IBM, Intel, and Apple...What the hell does that have to do with anything here?

PS. My resume has Adtranz, ABB, Bombardier, Westinghouse, and Siemens on it.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by cphilip
Bill I hate to disagree with you but the Emag can be "Properly" cronographed without the rod under the rules. Interjecting the manufacturers prefered procedeure has not anything to do with it "Properly" being cronographed. If it did it would be in the rules. Prefered maybe but Proper by rules? No...

Phil, again, it's not just the suggested, it's the "Correct" way to chrono. There is a difference.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by Frank (the spank)


Oh wait... he writes for the nationally accredited WarPig.com and APG magazine, right? Thanks for noticing that I was "ripping him to shreds", cause I thought so too.

umm...he does a little more than just write for warpig.com...HE IS WARPIG.COM!;)

[hitech]

What does the ability to spell words correctly have to do with it? My nine year son will soon be able to spell better than me.

In my opinion Bill Mills is the most respected person in paintball that is not associated with a product. That also makes him an excellent source for unbiased opinions. He is someone who knows what he is talking about. His well worded and well thought out posts speak to his abilities.

What does you post say about you?

[hitech]

Originally posted by Muzikman
It's not just the suggested, it's the "Correct" way to chrono. There is a difference.

But should it be the required way to chrono? Should it be the only markers checked for "shoot up"?

[Frank (the spank)]

Originally posted by Muzikman


Let's just face it, kids today have no respect for people they should. And I would hope he knew who he was talking to, it's right in Bill's sig.


Kids? I'm 25 and have been playing paintball since the National Survival Game Splatmaster. Had a "pump" Nel-Spot later on.


Originally posted by Muzikman

Umm...cool...IBM, Intel, and Apple...What the hell does that have to do with anything here?



Because people are supposed to be impressed that this guy writes for a paintball website? When "WarPig" becomes a fortune 500 company then I'll be impressed, otherwise I'll take his post at face value. Fan boys make me sick... "oooh! 0wned!"

[Spaceman613]

So whats it mean that Im typing this sitting at a desk of a fortune 50 (not 500) company? and Im 26.

Bill is respected... plain and simple

Im sure you would realize that He does more than Warpig, he has a day job, a very good one.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Frank (the spank)
Kids? I'm 25...

Kids. :rolleyes:

[hitech]

Originally posted by Spaceman613
So whats it mean that Im typing this sitting at a desk of a fortune 50 (not 500) company? and Im 26.

That you probably have a nice job? Congratulations (I think). :D

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by Frank (the spank)



Kids? I'm 25 and have been playing paintball since the National Survival Game Splatmaster. Had a "pump" Nel-Spot later on.




Because people are supposed to be impressed that this guy writes for a paintball website? When "WarPig" becomes a fortune 500 company then I'll be impressed, otherwise I'll take his post at face value. Fan boys make me sick... "oooh! 0wned!"

Oh, sorry not kid, immature adult.

[Frank (the spank)]

I'm sure he does.. and that's great. But my post was about the ref yanking a players gun because he said it would bounce. Bill then pulls the proper way to chrono an E-Mag out of his..... harness.

Then while acting intelligent he misspells a bunch of words... and this guy is a writer?

Can you see why he has no credit with "me"? I could really care less he runs a website that has the html format of a cereal box.. as well as colors. (dude, seriously.. site revamp..)

I hate to crap on this thread... but he messed with the bull and got the horns. I didn't want to pick a fight with anyone.. he addressed me and I'm addressing back. As mother always said.. if you don't have anything nice to say...


Originally posted by Muzikman


Oh, sorry not kid, immature adult.

Thank you! :D

[Spaceman613]

A couple of misspelled words out of his lengthy posts isn't that bad. At least he isn't using slang and abbreviated words all the time.

[billmi]

Originally posted by Frank (the spank)
So why wasn't he playing? :-)


Because in large tournament circuits like the NPPL and PSP teams which compete in the series are hired to serve as referees for the events. According to your post the ref in question was someone who was not good enough to play, it's clear that since he plays in that same series, he is good enough to play, so you were incorrect about the reason he was reffing.



I never talked about chronoing the gun, I talked about having to remove the trigger rod because he thought in hybrid mode the trigger would bounce. You quoted my post in your reply, did you even read it? Did you read the part about "touching the gun and it goes full auto"???


I did read it, but I didn't think it necessary to correct you on that point, since you seemed more intent on belittling the referee than focusing on what he actually did.
If you will go back and read lamby's post that started this thread you will see that the ref did not tell him to remove the trigger rod or deal with the gun going "full auto" at all. Rather the ref told him that he would have to have the trigger rod in the gun so that it could be chronographed properly.



What do you do in your off time, sell paper hats?


As noted in my .sig file my "off time" activities include SCUBA diving, and motocross riding. Selling paper hats is not on the list. I'm a bit confused as to how what I to in my spare time has to do with how a referee at a tournament handles field safety though. It appears that you are attempting to distract from the issue at hand with superfluous concepts, much as a magician distracts his audience from his assistant sneaking off stage by throwing a smoke bomb on the other side of the stage.



And before you reply, my resume has IBM, Intel and currently Apple Computer on it, Billy.


I'm not sure how who you have worked for in the past and who you work for now would affect what I do in my off time. This looks like another attempt to distract the readers of this thread with shiny objects.

If by "off time" you meant who I've worked for and what's on my resume, I still don't see how who you have worked for would have any effect on who I've worked for. Since you've brought up the topic, my resume includes Hewlet Packard, Commodore Business Machines, CSU Fresno, Fresno, Kings and Madera county School Districts, WiReD Magazine, and a pile of other companies and government institutions ranging from schools to television studios, none of which have anything to do with SCUBA diving motocross riding, any of my "off time" activities, or the sales and distribution of paper hats. That's if I were to actually record my work experience and client list into a written resume. That hasn't been necessary for many years, since the overwhelming majority of my clients and job opportunities have come by referral.



What I DON'T agree with was how this clown assumed this player was going to CHEAT. Innocent until proven guilty? Did this "ref" shoot the gun and try and bounce the trigger? No... he looked at it, said "thats a mag and it does full auto!" and made this guy yank apart his gun.


Not according to lamby. According to lamby the "clown" told him he would need to have the trigger rod in the gun so that it could be chronoed properly. In most paintball fields and tournaments players are not considered "innocent until proven guilty." Instead they all must have their velocities checked with the chronograph because it as an important part of paintball safety.



I don't know, but since you seem to know more about homosexuals than I then please clue me in on if they would be fit to chronograph a paintgun. Ya know since I wasn't worried about the proper way to chronograph a paintgun.


I never made any statements about homosexuals. It was you who appeared to deduce the referee's sexual orientation based on his actions, which prompted me to ask how you made that asessment, and ask about similar sexual, religious and racial factors and how you thought they would come into play.



I really can't respect someone that can't spell "procedure" or "Implies" either, IE not Y, Billy.


Fortunately there are spell checkers, or working as the contributing editor to 2 US based magazines and editor for an international magazine would never have made their spots on my resume. I find it ironic that you would criticize my spelling when you've errantly appended y to my name each time you've typed it.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Muzikman]

Frank, you might want to quit while your behind. You personally attacked a ref that you do not know. Made comments about that ref that were both uncalled for and immature and all Bill did was call you on it. So what do you do? Come back and bash one of the most respected people in the sport of paintball. If anything I think you just need to sit back and look at your original post and think about what you said. At this point it's not a question of if the ref was right or not, but that all you seem to like to do is personally attack people who you know nothing about. At the same time inflate your ego by doping names of large computer companies that you work for. The fact that you are 25 and have worked for 3 major companies just tells me you can't hold a job.

BTW, If you attack anyone in here that I know and respect I'll step up. I do respect Bill and Dawn. Am I a "Fan boy"? maybe, but who the hell cares.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Frank (the spank)
I didn't want to pick a fight with anyone.. he addressed me and I'm addressing back.

If you didn't want to, then why did you? Bill addressed your posts with facts. He never attacked you personally. Can you say the same?

He also disagreed with me. No problem there (and it's not because of who he is).


Originally posted by Frank (the spank)
As mother always said.. if you don't have anything nice to say...

Are you suggesting we should follow your mothers advice? Should you?

[BradPalooza]

Generally I hate posts that don't contribute, but I just can't resist...

Bill, can I get a couple of your paper hats in Philly. : )

[billmi]

Originally posted by BradPalooza
Generally I hate posts that don't contribute, but I just can't resist...

Bill, can I get a couple of your paper hats in Philly. : )

Sure, but since I don't sell them they'll be freebies. I don't think I've made one since I was 4 or 5. I remember learning how from Mr. Roger's Neighborhood. They're the same as a newspaper boat.

I guess since Macintosh computers are for creative things like that I'd be best to use the Mac OS to look for hat folding instructions. Since I don't have a Mac, I'll have to fire up one of my Amigas. I have a Mac emulator written by none other than Jim Drew (that's some of what he did before making boards for paintguns and loaders.)

See you in Philly, or Butler if you're there,
-Bill

[Army]

Thank you Frank the Spank, you have succeeded in pissing me off, and getting this thread closed.

Your uncalled for attempts at humor, and "digs" at other AO members are absolutely against the rules on being disruptive.

I will decide if a 3 day, or longer, ban is warranted.

Armt