OT Car Audio. OT

**blitz134** · 08-05-2001, 08:41 PM

well i might not be decked out as what you say but i will mention what i have in my truck

mainly i run everything off of my kenwood head with the dmask+ technology on it...very nice sounding...and infinity component set and infinity speakers in the dash...i would have more but im getting a truck next summer so im saving what little money i have...i do a lot of car audio stuff for friends and just love it...i have big plans for my new vehicle, hehe

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**Army** · 08-05-2001, 09:54 PM

Having a standard cab Ranger, I was limited in the size and power I could mount in. Settled for Rockford Fosgate 8" tuned boxes behind the seats, R/F 400amp kicker, and Kenwood 6x9 three ways in the doors, all fed by the Kenwood head.

Sarah hates it when I crank my music when we go through downtown

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"It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that insures victory." BG Patton 1936

**Miscue** · 08-05-2001, 10:06 PM

I hope to have my car competition ready eventually.

As of now, I have 2 175x2 ESX Quantum Amps, from the makers of Xtant (Zed Audio). 12" Crystal Mobile Sound CMP Sub. My car is somewhat sound sealed underneath with rubberized undercoat.

I will spend MUCH time on setting up a proper sound stage. Everything will be sound sealed, fiberglass kick pods, etc.

As for front stage, plan on either CDTs or Magnats. Deck - Higher End Clarion. High output alternator, great wiring... etc. etc. etc....

**randomboy** · 08-05-2001, 10:18 PM

Miscue, how do you like your CMP?
I own the CDT 642 HD set right now minus the 6.5" midbass, and they sound great. I think some others to look into might be Focal, Rainbow, BA's, the likes

And that reminds me I gave sound deadening no thought.......

Thats ok, its a piece build project right now

**Fritzy** · 08-06-2001, 08:27 AM

Well, I just got a new truck (Blazer) and scaled back my system a bit. It is still nice though. Boston 6.4's in front and one 10" Infinity Perfect in the rear. Kenwood Excellon head unit. I still use my old Hifonics Atlas(series VII, back when Hifonics was awesome, not their current crap) monoblock to push the sub and a PPI A300 running the front stage. The head unit powers the stock 6x9's in the back for rear fill. Phoenix Gold EQ215 boosts my voltage and tweaks the sound ever so slightly.

The one Perfect 10 has incredible output. I don't boom anymore, mainly a sound quality set-up. However, when I dial it up and put in a bass track, watch out! The Atlas is conservatively rated at 400 @ 4 ohms, and the Perfect soaks it right up. But it is just as impressive with acoustic material. Very detailed and doesn't overshadow the music. Highly recommended.

**pyro45** · 08-06-2001, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by randomboy:
Wow, my first OT post

Anywho, just wondering who else in here has something going on in their car besides a factory setup, or an aftermarket cd player and a changer, I'm talking multiple amp setups, subs, mid bass, mid range, tweets, active xovers, eq'ing, digital time delays, all the goodies

Me, I just bought a new car this week and already have planned out mostly everything thats going in it, save for, well most of it

Amps - Arc Audio 2100cxl, for front stage
2 - Arc Audio 1500dr, 1 per sub, pushing roughly 1200-1400 watts rms

Subs - 2 Image Dynamics ID MAX 12's

Wiring - all stinger and scosche, 0/1awg from under hood back to the trunk, all upgraded grounds and alternator connections, 200ampere drop in replacement for stock alternator

HU - Undeciced
Front stage - Undecided, most likely Image Dynamics though
Xover/eq- Probably all Audio Control stuff

At this point, I'm starting with just the wiring, a single sub, single sub amp and HU, estimated grand total ~~~ 1600 dollars By the time I'm done it should all total nearly 3500-4000

So, just had to share, now what do you have? I just love me my ID stuff, I've had great experience with both them and Zapco in the past

Damn, thats some cash... All I am going for is 2 phenix gold 12", a power acustic ice amp at 850 and some pioneer or infinity 6X9"s and 5"s Powered by 2 pyle amps with gauges one mounted on each side of the PA amp. Then a Brand new deked out Kamelion Cd. Total my price is, bout $800...... But I got connections. As long as you have good amps and a head unit you dont need crossovers and EQs. Unless you are going all out competition but I need to use that extra money for engine upgrades and neons.

**PsychoMag** · 08-06-2001, 09:16 AM

In my Honda prelude, I have a SONY Mobile ES head unit model XRC-900, the only digital surround sound head unit to date. This unit even has a copper casing for noise. Powering the unit are twin Mobile ES Component amps, since the head unit itself has no amp in it.
I am also using an A/D/S 100x6 amp to power the rest of the system. I don't need an external EQ since the SONY head, has an outstanding unit built in. I have a PPI Crossover network and all Monster brand wire with gold plated terminals. I have a single Mobile ES Changer of 10 disc for now. I have not installed a TV yet, even though the Head unit has TV/VCR/DVD controls.

I am actually selling alot of it. I want a new condo down the shore

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**Hasty8** · 08-06-2001, 11:49 AM

Hey Randomboy. Unless you are going to go comp with your sound system I can honestly say that you are putting way to much into your system. Most headunit these days have suffiecient amp power to give a good loud but crisp signal. And as for the speciality wires, they're crap. I drive a 93 Dodge caravan. I run the Sony MD Recorder/CD controler headunit with tweeters in the door frame at just about head level, 3 inch circulars in the front dash and 6.9s in custom cabinets on the ceiling. I did that last bit to get them out of the rear door because they were behind the bench and were pretty much useless there. I also have a 10 bazooka tube with a built in crossover and amp. I've had that tube since high school (91) and it still kicks arse.

The two biggest things I can recommend is to get a really good headunit. You don't need something with all the bells and whistles, just something with a good amperage setup.

The second is called sound stage and I just can't stress this enough. You can have the most powerful speakers, amp and yada, yada, yada in the world but the wrong placement and you've ruined them. With sound stage you have to go smaller to get better sound. Reason is this. The larger the speakers are the more room the need apart from each other to create a bigger sound spot. I realized this when I set up mt "sweet spot" perfectly for me as a driver but when I was once in the passenger seat I realized that the sound was very much coming from the front right side speaker.

With the set up that I have right now my brother says he knows when I am coming to his house cause he can hear me from a few blocks away.

Don't spend all the money at once. Invest in a good headunit and research speaker location. Keep them away from the ankles cause your ankles don't have ears. (one thing I wish car manufacturers would learn)
Start with decent speakers and once you have found their location then decide if you want to upgrade them.

**Miscue** · 08-06-2001, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by randomboy:
Miscue, how do you like your CMP?
I own the CDT 642 HD set right now minus the 6.5" midbass, and they sound great. I think some others to look into might be Focal, Rainbow, BA's, the likes

And that reminds me I gave sound deadening no thought.......

Thats ok, its a piece build project right now

The CMP has won many many competitions. It can do extremely high SPLs (about the highest of any sub) but the reason why I got it is because it has superb sound quality to bat (I'm going for SQ competitions). Well actually, I won it in a contest, but was going to buy it anyway... $400 at the time. They have a new model that replaces this at

http://www.ampmanaudio.com

(GREAT SITE!!! Kirk is a great guy... kinda like TK of car audio sales. Dude, all the best schtuff is here... check out their forum too, it's like the car stereo version of AO - and I'm talking content-wise)

If you're looking for a sub, I highly recommend the Crystal CMP (or the new model), it's not pricy, and you can still get the original CMP like I have for cheap... the new one just does higher SPLs. EVERYBODY LOVES/CHERISHES/BRAGS about their CMP subs.

Get a GOOD enclosure for your sub made to handle the particular sub that you'll be using. VERY important... they are not all the same... every sub has different needs. You can have a great sub, but will not run at full potential... will not give you the sound you're looking for... actually sound like crap... or can damage your equipment if you don't get it right. Personally, I'll be dumping $250 into a single sub enclosure for mine.

Sound Deadening is EXTREMELY important. I cannot stress this enough. You CANNOT have a GREAT system w/o using it... decent is all you can hope to achieve. Speaker placement is extremely important, but perhaps the most important component of setting up your soundstage is sound deadening. Setting up the soundstage is incredibly complex, do yourself a favor and research everything you can... in a week you may understand the basics.

It will raise the height of your soundstage, adds to your system efficiency... your system is much louder at same volume level... which means it will distort much later because you don't have to pump up your volume knob as much. It cancels out bad sound waves... waves that continue bouncing around and screw with the good sound waves... etc etc etc... many good benefits.

You can use Dynamat or similar if you want, but they have this asphault roofing material that does same thing for cheaper. I'm going to use the high grade (not regular) dynamat because although it is freakin expensive, it is much lighter than the roofing stuff.. and I will be using A LOT of it... don't need to add hundreds of pounds to my car's weight.

If you want to stay with the basics, get your floor and doors done. You'll get very good results just by doing this. More layers on the floor if you can. I will be using the sound deadening carpet foam as well...

If you do it right, a crap system can sound good, a good system can sound GREAT. A great system... perfection. It DOES NOT matter what equipment you have if you don't set up your soundstage correctly, it will still sound like crap. (You'll need a trained ear to tell the difference... but if you could only hear an expert setup audiophile system ... ohhhh... so sweet. (I'm not talking car audio shop setups... 99.9% of car audio people don't know jack... they are 'installers' and can plug things in to make noise... they do not understand the complex science behind good car audio) Most people (including those who buy high end car audio stuff) have NO idea what a system can sound like. A great audiophile setup is SOOO good. You can put in your CDs you've listened to 1000s times... and you will be listening to them for the first time on that system. Sounds you did not know were there... you did not know the guitarist was sitting next to you... etc.. Every instrument, every voice has a distinct location. You can reach out and touch things. Total emmersion... sounds so good.

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**randomboy** · 08-06-2001, 01:37 PM

Oh, and by the way, YES, I plan on competing, DB Drag Super Street 1-2 class next summer, and who knows, depending on how nuts I go this winter, I may jump into the IASCA lanes too

**LizzaRTgirl14** · 08-06-2001, 01:42 PM

I just thouht I'd come in here and say- I didn't even know they had competition and have NO idea what any of the things you guys are talking about are.

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MiD tO FrOnT cEnTeR~**~
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**randomboy** · 08-06-2001, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Hasty8:
Hey Randomboy. Unless you are going to go comp with your sound system I can honestly say that you are putting way to much into your system. Most headunit these days have suffiecient amp power to give a good loud but crisp signal. And as for the speciality wires, they're crap. I drive a 93 Dodge caravan. I run the Sony MD Recorder/CD controler headunit with tweeters in the door frame at just about head level, 3 inch circulars in the front dash and 6.9s in custom cabinets on the ceiling. I did that last bit to get them out of the rear door because they were behind the bench and were pretty much useless there. I also have a 10 bazooka tube with a built in crossover and amp. I've had that tube since high school (91) and it still kicks arse.

The two biggest things I can recommend is to get a really good headunit. You don't need something with all the bells and whistles, just something with a good amperage setup.

The second is called sound stage and I just can't stress this enough. You can have the most powerful speakers, amp and yada, yada, yada in the world but the wrong placement and you've ruined them. With sound stage you have to go smaller to get better sound. Reason is this. The larger the speakers are the more room the need apart from each other to create a bigger sound spot. I realized this when I set up mt "sweet spot" perfectly for me as a driver but when I was once in the passenger seat I realized that the sound was very much coming from the front right side speaker.

With the set up that I have right now my brother says he knows when I am coming to his house cause he can hear me from a few blocks away.

Don't spend all the money at once. Invest in a good headunit and research speaker location. Keep them away from the ankles cause your ankles don't have ears. (one thing I wish car manufacturers would learn)
Start with decent speakers and once you have found their location then decide if you want to upgrade them.

Actually, I could and may completely forgo a HU with any internal amplification, lowers THD and increases the S/N ratio to boot. Several of the Eclipse decks like Psycho's Sony deck have the copper chassis to reduce on radiated and engine noise, you'll probably never ever hear the difference, but you never know.
And yes, I know about staging, I already set up my stage once in one of my old cars with a set of 6.5 BA Rally series components, the stage was a bit low, just about dash height, but it was the best I could do with the given path lenghts of my kick placement.
And actually, the larger the speaker, the less localized the sound is. Tweeters and the high frequencies they put out have very short wavelengths and the sound is very directional and localized, where as mid and sub bass frequencies have much longer wavelengths and are very omni-direction making pin pointing the origin of the sound very hard to do. This is why with a sub in the trunk and a good set of mid basses, BUF*bass up front* is achieved (and VERY nice too )

And another reason to build kick panels and to keep the drivers at your ankles and aim them up towards the ceiling is so that you can get the most equal path lengths possible. Thats why in stock systems where the speakers are in the dash or high in the doors, it sounds like all the sound is coming from that side because of the very unequal path lenghts, if you even it out and get the aiming right, you can achieve a center point in your staging and you'd never know where the sound was originating from No need to preach to the choir there Hasty

**Miscue** · 08-06-2001, 01:54 PM

Quick tips: (Keep in mind that this is from an enthusiast's point of view, and I assume that you are interested a 'good' system)

Car Audio is not easy. It is extremely difficult. If you're happy with plugging things in and getting noise, that's one thing. Doing it right is another.

Wattage don't mean jack. CLEAN wattage is what you're looking for. An awesome 80W amp can destroy a crappy 500W amp... as in SPLs and SQ. Heck, a Butler Tube Driver Blue (I want one so bad) is a 150Wx2 amp that costs $800, but it is an AMAZING amp that is highly sought after.

Those wattage ratings on decks... don't mean jack, you are getting much less than it says. 40Wx4? How about less than 15x4? (I forgot how it boiled down exactly, but something like that). Don't get me wrong, if you don't want to spend much you can make a half decent better than stock system just using your deck for power.

Don't use your deck for much more than a sound source... built in EQs always suck, those digital processing gizmos they got usually suck too (with exceptions) Worry about its accoustic properties - about all that matters, most gizmoish feature things are unimportant and/or will interfere with the quality of your sound. Some of the best decks out there are freakin ugly, and basically all they have are play/stop/etc buttons, and outputs on the back.

There are many cheap/free things you can do to make your system better.

You don't have to buy expensive stuff to get good results. You can get poor results using expensive equipment.

There are many brands out there you've never heard of that are cheaper/better than the big name stuff.

Distortion kills equipment/ears way before volume levels will. (Higher volumes amplify distortion)

Do not ever underpower your equipment. If you have a 300W RMS sub, give it at least that. You will damage your speakers by underpowering them. Strangely enough, overpowering them will not break them if you don't jack up the volume too high.

Getting more than one sub is stupid. You can get disturbing, extremely high SPLs with one. Get a good high SPL sub, give it maybe 500W or so of CLEAN power (will send 500-600W to my Crystal CMP), put it in an appropriate enclusure... done. Only reason to get two or more is if you are competing in high SPL competitions. Really dual subs doesn't make a very big difference. Put two jet fighters side by side, and you'll find that you really didn't increase your sound by a whole lot.

Speaker placement: Each car is different. There is no set rules (only basic guidelines) that tell you where to place your speakers. (As for basics, there's things like the further you have your front speakers out, they become more equidistant from you... sound better... etc) You have to experiment yourself with your particular equipment/car. People have been known to spend weeks on this. If that's what it takes, that's what I'll do as well... before I start pouring fiberglass and stuff. You can take the exact same car and end up with different speaker locations with different equipment.

(Competition point of view) - Equalizers are used to fix mistakes/flaws. Ideally, your system does not need one... although it is rare and lucky for the owner to run across this situation. If one is used, the idea is to make changes as small as possible. Large changes mean you need to fix something.
(Personalization of sound) - If you like tweaking your sound to your tastes... cool. Keep what I said earlier in mind. Using EQ off the deck sucks, don't get a deck with built in EQ ... get a standalone EQ... maybe 5-band parametric type deal... whatever suits your tastes... do your research. Avoid it all together if you can...

If you're new at car audio, I can help you out some. Please remember: Subjectivity is a huge part of car audio... and nobody can give you clear answers all the time. If you want to know characteristics of particular components... do your homework... hit up rec.car.audio or something. Best thing to do is go audition the equipment for yourself.

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**randomboy** · 08-06-2001, 03:23 PM

Just to clear something up, underpowering does not hurt your subs at all, they just wont be as loud or clean, thats it, clipping your amp will destroy subs however.

A simple rule of thumb, by which Miscue is right that 2 subs will not be much louder for conventional listening is that....
If you double the cone area (say from 1 12 to 2 12's) the theoretical gain with the same amount of wattage as with just one sub, will be 3 decibals. But if you were to double wattage and double cone area, then you have a theoretical gain of 6 decibals. 6 decibals gets to be significant, because to us, increasing the volume of something 10 db's, it is percieved as "twice as loud". Meaning that 120 decibals will be percieved as twice as loud as 110 decibals, and 130 will be louder than 120, etc etc.

Little fact, the threshold of pain is 130 decibals, at 140 decibals you will go deaf in roughly an hour, at 150 decibals, give it 10-15 minutes to cause complete deafness, and at this point can cause heart problems, and at 160 decibals, the eardrum is perforated and completely destroyed, at 170 decibals, this can rupture internal organs and can and will cause death through internal bleeding. The highest recorded SPL in car audio as of now is roughly 175 db's just to give you an idea......

My goal right now is for at least mid 150's, perhaps higher. Anyone care to hear us ramble on more?

And like miscue said, install is very important, you can take the most high end drivers and amps, and make them sound no better than a factory stereo, whereas you can take some of the cheapest components out there and make it rival a good install with those high end components. I've never been much of a flashy deck guy myself, I'll probably eventually run 3 AC eqt's as alot of guys have done, 1 for RTA (real time analysis, tested using pink noise I believe) and measures the frequency response across the audio spectrum, the flatter your response, the more points you get. A 2nd is generally used for SQ/listening time w/ judges, and the 3rd is usually used just for your own tweaking satifaction for daily driving and to crank up for that oh so fun spl section

Miscue, have you ever posted over on sounddomain.com??

[This message has been edited by randomboy (edited 08-06-2001).]

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OT Car Audio. OT

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