*OT* Car Audio. *OT*

[randomboy]

Wow, my first OT post http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

Anywho, just wondering who else in here has something going on in their car besides a factory setup, or an aftermarket cd player and a changer, I'm talking multiple amp setups, subs, mid bass, mid range, tweets, active xovers, eq'ing, digital time delays, all the goodies http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

Me, I just bought a new car this week and already have planned out mostly everything thats going in it, save for, well most of it http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

Amps - Arc Audio 2100cxl, for front stage
2 - Arc Audio 1500dr, 1 per sub, pushing roughly 1200-1400 watts rms

Subs - 2 Image Dynamics ID MAX 12's

Wiring - all stinger and scosche, 0/1awg from under hood back to the trunk, all upgraded grounds and alternator connections, 200ampere drop in replacement for stock alternator

HU - Undeciced
Front stage - Undecided, most likely Image Dynamics though
Xover/eq- Probably all Audio Control stuff

At this point, I'm starting with just the wiring, a single sub, single sub amp and HU, estimated grand total ~~~ 1600 dollars http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif By the time I'm done it should all total nearly 3500-4000 http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

So, just had to share, now what do you have? I just love me my ID stuff, I've had great experience with both them and Zapco in the past http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

[blitz134]

well i might not be decked out as what you say but i will mention what i have in my truck

mainly i run everything off of my kenwood head with the dmask+ technology on it...very nice sounding...and infinity component set and infinity speakers in the dash...i would have more but im getting a truck next summer so im saving what little money i have...i do a lot of car audio stuff for friends and just love it...i have big plans for my new vehicle, hehe


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blitz134
>>>>>>>>>>>>
p/f mag w/ blue eclipse splash kit
retro valve
68ci maxflow hpa setup
lapco autospirit
>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Army]

Having a standard cab Ranger, I was limited in the size and power I could mount in. Settled for Rockford Fosgate 8" tuned boxes behind the seats, R/F 400amp kicker, and Kenwood 6x9 three ways in the doors, all fed by the Kenwood head.

Sarah hates it when I crank my music when we go through downtown http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that insures victory." BG Patton 1936

[Miscue]

I hope to have my car competition ready eventually.

As of now, I have 2 175x2 ESX Quantum Amps, from the makers of Xtant (Zed Audio). 12" Crystal Mobile Sound CMP Sub. My car is somewhat sound sealed underneath with rubberized undercoat.

I will spend MUCH time on setting up a proper sound stage. Everything will be sound sealed, fiberglass kick pods, etc.

As for front stage, plan on either CDTs or Magnats. Deck - Higher End Clarion. High output alternator, great wiring... etc. etc. etc....

[randomboy]

Miscue, how do you like your CMP?
I own the CDT 642 HD set right now minus the 6.5" midbass, and they sound great. I think some others to look into might be Focal, Rainbow, BA's, the likes http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif


And that reminds me I gave sound deadening no thought.......

Thats ok, its a piece build project right now http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Fritzy]

Well, I just got a new truck (Blazer) and scaled back my system a bit. It is still nice though. Boston 6.4's in front and one 10" Infinity Perfect in the rear. Kenwood Excellon head unit. I still use my old Hifonics Atlas(series VII, back when Hifonics was awesome, not their current crap) monoblock to push the sub and a PPI A300 running the front stage. The head unit powers the stock 6x9's in the back for rear fill. Phoenix Gold EQ215 boosts my voltage and tweaks the sound ever so slightly.

The one Perfect 10 has incredible output. I don't boom anymore, mainly a sound quality set-up. However, when I dial it up and put in a bass track, watch out! The Atlas is conservatively rated at 400 @ 4 ohms, and the Perfect soaks it right up. But it is just as impressive with acoustic material. Very detailed and doesn't overshadow the music. Highly recommended.

[pyro45]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by randomboy:
Wow, my first OT post http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

Anywho, just wondering who else in here has something going on in their car besides a factory setup, or an aftermarket cd player and a changer, I'm talking multiple amp setups, subs, mid bass, mid range, tweets, active xovers, eq'ing, digital time delays, all the goodies http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

Me, I just bought a new car this week and already have planned out mostly everything thats going in it, save for, well most of it http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

Amps - Arc Audio 2100cxl, for front stage
2 - Arc Audio 1500dr, 1 per sub, pushing roughly 1200-1400 watts rms

Subs - 2 Image Dynamics ID MAX 12's

Wiring - all stinger and scosche, 0/1awg from under hood back to the trunk, all upgraded grounds and alternator connections, 200ampere drop in replacement for stock alternator

HU - Undeciced
Front stage - Undecided, most likely Image Dynamics though
Xover/eq- Probably all Audio Control stuff

At this point, I'm starting with just the wiring, a single sub, single sub amp and HU, estimated grand total ~~~ 1600 dollars http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif By the time I'm done it should all total nearly 3500-4000 http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

So, just had to share, now what do you have? I just love me my ID stuff, I've had great experience with both them and Zapco in the past http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif</font>

Damn, thats some cash... All I am going for is 2 phenix gold 12", a power acustic ice amp at 850 and some pioneer or infinity 6X9"s and 5"s Powered by 2 pyle amps with gauges one mounted on each side of the PA amp. Then a Brand new deked out Kamelion Cd. Total my price is, bout $800...... But I got connections. As long as you have good amps and a head unit you dont need crossovers and EQs. Unless you are going all out competition but I need to use that extra money for engine upgrades and neons.

[PsychoMag]

In my Honda prelude, I have a SONY Mobile ES head unit model XRC-900, the only digital surround sound head unit to date. This unit even has a copper casing for noise. Powering the unit are twin Mobile ES Component amps, since the head unit itself has no amp in it.
I am also using an A/D/S 100x6 amp to power the rest of the system. I don't need an external EQ since the SONY head, has an outstanding unit built in. I have a PPI Crossover network and all Monster brand wire with gold plated terminals. I have a single Mobile ES Changer of 10 disc for now. I have not installed a TV yet, even though the Head unit has TV/VCR/DVD controls.

I am actually selling alot of it. I want a new condo down the shore http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif


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PsychoMag..."Dogger"
RTP00440, Benchmark Offset Adj. HPA Cradle, Pro-Connect, 12"AA, 12"DYE SS, 12"Boomie, 14"JJ Ceramic, 68/4500 NitroDuck Tuffy, 12Revvie, Warp.
Team ArchAngels
www.angelfire.com/extreme2/archangels"
No Skill, No Talent, All Heart" ~ Oh Pawlak

[Hasty8]

Hey Randomboy. Unless you are going to go comp with your sound system I can honestly say that you are putting way to much into your system. Most headunit these days have suffiecient amp power to give a good loud but crisp signal. And as for the speciality wires, they're crap. I drive a 93 Dodge caravan. I run the Sony MD Recorder/CD controler headunit with tweeters in the door frame at just about head level, 3 inch circulars in the front dash and 6.9s in custom cabinets on the ceiling. I did that last bit to get them out of the rear door because they were behind the bench and were pretty much useless there. I also have a 10 bazooka tube with a built in crossover and amp. I've had that tube since high school (91) and it still kicks arse.

The two biggest things I can recommend is to get a really good headunit. You don't need something with all the bells and whistles, just something with a good amperage setup.

The second is called sound stage and I just can't stress this enough. You can have the most powerful speakers, amp and yada, yada, yada in the world but the wrong placement and you've ruined them. With sound stage you have to go smaller to get better sound. Reason is this. The larger the speakers are the more room the need apart from each other to create a bigger sound spot. I realized this when I set up mt "sweet spot" perfectly for me as a driver but when I was once in the passenger seat I realized that the sound was very much coming from the front right side speaker.

With the set up that I have right now my brother says he knows when I am coming to his house cause he can hear me from a few blocks away.

Don't spend all the money at once. Invest in a good headunit and research speaker location. Keep them away from the ankles cause your ankles don't have ears. (one thing I wish car manufacturers would learn)
Start with decent speakers and once you have found their location then decide if you want to upgrade them.

[Miscue]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by randomboy:
Miscue, how do you like your CMP?
I own the CDT 642 HD set right now minus the 6.5" midbass, and they sound great. I think some others to look into might be Focal, Rainbow, BA's, the likes http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif


And that reminds me I gave sound deadening no thought.......

Thats ok, its a piece build project right now http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif</font>

The CMP has won many many competitions. It can do extremely high SPLs (about the highest of any sub) but the reason why I got it is because it has superb sound quality to bat (I'm going for SQ competitions). Well actually, I won it in a contest, but was going to buy it anyway... $400 at the time. They have a new model that replaces this at

http://www.ampmanaudio.com

(GREAT SITE!!! Kirk is a great guy... kinda like TK of car audio sales. Dude, all the best schtuff is here... check out their forum too, it's like the car stereo version of AO - and I'm talking content-wise)

If you're looking for a sub, I highly recommend the Crystal CMP (or the new model), it's not pricy, and you can still get the original CMP like I have for cheap... the new one just does higher SPLs. EVERYBODY LOVES/CHERISHES/BRAGS about their CMP subs.

Get a GOOD enclosure for your sub made to handle the particular sub that you'll be using. VERY important... they are not all the same... every sub has different needs. You can have a great sub, but will not run at full potential... will not give you the sound you're looking for... actually sound like crap... or can damage your equipment if you don't get it right. Personally, I'll be dumping $250 into a single sub enclosure for mine.

Sound Deadening is EXTREMELY important. I cannot stress this enough. You CANNOT have a GREAT system w/o using it... decent is all you can hope to achieve. Speaker placement is extremely important, but perhaps the most important component of setting up your soundstage is sound deadening. Setting up the soundstage is incredibly complex, do yourself a favor and research everything you can... in a week you may understand the basics.

It will raise the height of your soundstage, adds to your system efficiency... your system is much louder at same volume level... which means it will distort much later because you don't have to pump up your volume knob as much. It cancels out bad sound waves... waves that continue bouncing around and screw with the good sound waves... etc etc etc... many good benefits.

You can use Dynamat or similar if you want, but they have this asphault roofing material that does same thing for cheaper. I'm going to use the high grade (not regular) dynamat because although it is freakin expensive, it is much lighter than the roofing stuff.. and I will be using A LOT of it... don't need to add hundreds of pounds to my car's weight.

If you want to stay with the basics, get your floor and doors done. You'll get very good results just by doing this. More layers on the floor if you can. I will be using the sound deadening carpet foam as well...

If you do it right, a crap system can sound good, a good system can sound GREAT. A great system... perfection. It DOES NOT matter what equipment you have if you don't set up your soundstage correctly, it will still sound like crap. (You'll need a trained ear to tell the difference... but if you could only hear an expert setup audiophile system ... ohhhh... so sweet. (I'm not talking car audio shop setups... 99.9% of car audio people don't know jack... they are 'installers' and can plug things in to make noise... they do not understand the complex science behind good car audio) Most people (including those who buy high end car audio stuff) have NO idea what a system can sound like. A great audiophile setup is SOOO good. You can put in your CDs you've listened to 1000s times... and you will be listening to them for the first time on that system. Sounds you did not know were there... you did not know the guitarist was sitting next to you... etc.. Every instrument, every voice has a distinct location. You can reach out and touch things. Total emmersion... sounds so good.



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"Don't mill your tank." - Miscue

Miscue's Profile (http://www.liquidmagma.com/automags/miscue.php)

[randomboy]

Oh, and by the way, YES, I plan on competing, DB Drag Super Street 1-2 class next summer, and who knows, depending on how nuts I go this winter, I may jump into the IASCA lanes too http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

[LizzaRTgirl14]

I just thouht I'd come in here and say- I didn't even know they had competition and have NO idea what any of the things you guys are talking about are.

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~**~tEaM bLaCk IcE
MiD tO FrOnT cEnTeR~**~
ReTro Mag.....well..kinda

[randomboy]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Hasty8:
Hey Randomboy. Unless you are going to go comp with your sound system I can honestly say that you are putting way to much into your system. Most headunit these days have suffiecient amp power to give a good loud but crisp signal. And as for the speciality wires, they're crap. I drive a 93 Dodge caravan. I run the Sony MD Recorder/CD controler headunit with tweeters in the door frame at just about head level, 3 inch circulars in the front dash and 6.9s in custom cabinets on the ceiling. I did that last bit to get them out of the rear door because they were behind the bench and were pretty much useless there. I also have a 10 bazooka tube with a built in crossover and amp. I've had that tube since high school (91) and it still kicks arse.

The two biggest things I can recommend is to get a really good headunit. You don't need something with all the bells and whistles, just something with a good amperage setup.

The second is called sound stage and I just can't stress this enough. You can have the most powerful speakers, amp and yada, yada, yada in the world but the wrong placement and you've ruined them. With sound stage you have to go smaller to get better sound. Reason is this. The larger the speakers are the more room the need apart from each other to create a bigger sound spot. I realized this when I set up mt "sweet spot" perfectly for me as a driver but when I was once in the passenger seat I realized that the sound was very much coming from the front right side speaker.

With the set up that I have right now my brother says he knows when I am coming to his house cause he can hear me from a few blocks away.

Don't spend all the money at once. Invest in a good headunit and research speaker location. Keep them away from the ankles cause your ankles don't have ears. (one thing I wish car manufacturers would learn)
Start with decent speakers and once you have found their location then decide if you want to upgrade them.</font>

Actually, I could and may completely forgo a HU with any internal amplification, lowers THD and increases the S/N ratio to boot. Several of the Eclipse decks like Psycho's Sony deck have the copper chassis to reduce on radiated and engine noise, you'll probably never ever hear the difference, but you never know.
And yes, I know about staging, I already set up my stage once in one of my old cars with a set of 6.5 BA Rally series components, the stage was a bit low, just about dash height, but it was the best I could do with the given path lenghts of my kick placement.
And actually, the larger the speaker, the less localized the sound is. Tweeters and the high frequencies they put out have very short wavelengths and the sound is very directional and localized, where as mid and sub bass frequencies have much longer wavelengths and are very omni-direction making pin pointing the origin of the sound very hard to do. This is why with a sub in the trunk and a good set of mid basses, BUF*bass up front* is achieved (and VERY nice too http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif )

And another reason to build kick panels and to keep the drivers at your ankles and aim them up towards the ceiling is so that you can get the most equal path lengths possible. Thats why in stock systems where the speakers are in the dash or high in the doors, it sounds like all the sound is coming from that side because of the very unequal path lenghts, if you even it out and get the aiming right, you can achieve a center point in your staging and you'd never know where the sound was originating from http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif No need to preach to the choir there Hasty http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Miscue]

Quick tips: (Keep in mind that this is from an enthusiast's point of view, and I assume that you are interested a 'good' system)

Car Audio is not easy. It is extremely difficult. If you're happy with plugging things in and getting noise, that's one thing. Doing it right is another.

Wattage don't mean jack. CLEAN wattage is what you're looking for. An awesome 80W amp can destroy a crappy 500W amp... as in SPLs and SQ. Heck, a Butler Tube Driver Blue (I want one so bad) is a 150Wx2 amp that costs $800, but it is an AMAZING amp that is highly sought after.

Those wattage ratings on decks... don't mean jack, you are getting much less than it says. 40Wx4? How about less than 15x4? (I forgot how it boiled down exactly, but something like that). Don't get me wrong, if you don't want to spend much you can make a half decent better than stock system just using your deck for power.

Don't use your deck for much more than a sound source... built in EQs always suck, those digital processing gizmos they got usually suck too (with exceptions) Worry about its accoustic properties - about all that matters, most gizmoish feature things are unimportant and/or will interfere with the quality of your sound. Some of the best decks out there are freakin ugly, and basically all they have are play/stop/etc buttons, and outputs on the back.

There are many cheap/free things you can do to make your system better.

You don't have to buy expensive stuff to get good results. You can get poor results using expensive equipment.

There are many brands out there you've never heard of that are cheaper/better than the big name stuff.

Distortion kills equipment/ears way before volume levels will. (Higher volumes amplify distortion)

Do not ever underpower your equipment. If you have a 300W RMS sub, give it at least that. You will damage your speakers by underpowering them. Strangely enough, overpowering them will not break them if you don't jack up the volume too high.

Getting more than one sub is stupid. You can get disturbing, extremely high SPLs with one. Get a good high SPL sub, give it maybe 500W or so of CLEAN power (will send 500-600W to my Crystal CMP), put it in an appropriate enclusure... done. Only reason to get two or more is if you are competing in high SPL competitions. Really dual subs doesn't make a very big difference. Put two jet fighters side by side, and you'll find that you really didn't increase your sound by a whole lot.

Speaker placement: Each car is different. There is no set rules (only basic guidelines) that tell you where to place your speakers. (As for basics, there's things like the further you have your front speakers out, they become more equidistant from you... sound better... etc) You have to experiment yourself with your particular equipment/car. People have been known to spend weeks on this. If that's what it takes, that's what I'll do as well... before I start pouring fiberglass and stuff. You can take the exact same car and end up with different speaker locations with different equipment.

(Competition point of view) - Equalizers are used to fix mistakes/flaws. Ideally, your system does not need one... although it is rare and lucky for the owner to run across this situation. If one is used, the idea is to make changes as small as possible. Large changes mean you need to fix something.
(Personalization of sound) - If you like tweaking your sound to your tastes... cool. Keep what I said earlier in mind. Using EQ off the deck sucks, don't get a deck with built in EQ ... get a standalone EQ... maybe 5-band parametric type deal... whatever suits your tastes... do your research. Avoid it all together if you can...

If you're new at car audio, I can help you out some. Please remember: Subjectivity is a huge part of car audio... and nobody can give you clear answers all the time. If you want to know characteristics of particular components... do your homework... hit up rec.car.audio or something. Best thing to do is go audition the equipment for yourself.

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"Don't mill your tank." - Miscue

Miscue's Profile (http://www.liquidmagma.com/automags/miscue.php)

[randomboy]

Just to clear something up, underpowering does not hurt your subs at all, they just wont be as loud or clean, thats it, clipping your amp will destroy subs however.

A simple rule of thumb, by which Miscue is right that 2 subs will not be much louder for conventional listening is that....
If you double the cone area (say from 1 12 to 2 12's) the theoretical gain with the same amount of wattage as with just one sub, will be 3 decibals. But if you were to double wattage and double cone area, then you have a theoretical gain of 6 decibals. 6 decibals gets to be significant, because to us, increasing the volume of something 10 db's, it is percieved as "twice as loud". Meaning that 120 decibals will be percieved as twice as loud as 110 decibals, and 130 will be louder than 120, etc etc.

Little fact, the threshold of pain is 130 decibals, at 140 decibals you will go deaf in roughly an hour, at 150 decibals, give it 10-15 minutes to cause complete deafness, and at this point can cause heart problems, and at 160 decibals, the eardrum is perforated and completely destroyed, at 170 decibals, this can rupture internal organs and can and will cause death through internal bleeding. The highest recorded SPL in car audio as of now is roughly 175 db's just to give you an idea......

My goal right now is for at least mid 150's, perhaps higher. Anyone care to hear us ramble on more? http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

And like miscue said, install is very important, you can take the most high end drivers and amps, and make them sound no better than a factory stereo, whereas you can take some of the cheapest components out there and make it rival a good install with those high end components. I've never been much of a flashy deck guy myself, I'll probably eventually run 3 AC eqt's as alot of guys have done, 1 for RTA (real time analysis, tested using pink noise I believe) and measures the frequency response across the audio spectrum, the flatter your response, the more points you get. A 2nd is generally used for SQ/listening time w/ judges, and the 3rd is usually used just for your own tweaking satifaction for daily driving and to crank up for that oh so fun spl section http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

Miscue, have you ever posted over on sounddomain.com??

[This message has been edited by randomboy (edited 08-06-2001).]

[shartley]

Miscue:
GREAT post!

Short post here.... that is why in competitions they like to have a LOUD comp and a QUALITY comp. Anyone who has seen the two systems will notice a HUGE difference.

Personally, loud is overrated. It annoys more than it impresses (sorry but that is true). When I get into a car, and I can hear fantastic sound quality (as with my home system) and hear all the sounds as they were meant to be heard... THAT is impressive.

I have never gotten into a car with a BOOMING system and marveled (and was impressed) at how LOUD it was.... I can put my head next to a fog horn for THAT effect. But I HAVE gotten into some vehicles with QUALITY systems that blew my mind even at low volumes.

Maybe I am just getting old? But those are my thoughts on the matter. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

[Lord Vader]

Bazooka woofers are the only way to go... http://www.automags.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Miscue]

Precisely Shartley! I don't know why people give a darn about how loud you can make it... except for the technical feat (it is very difficult to accomplish), it's pointless. You can't listen to music like that. Personally, I usually keep my stuff at a very moderate level... all I care is how good it sounds. A system that sounds good at whisper levels is very impressive.

I will never do a SPL (Sound Pressure Level) comp, only SQ (Sound Quality)... zero interest. What's kinda funny is that a high SQ system can spit out big dbs too... because the equipment necessary for high SQ does high SPL too... depending.

Randomboy... you need to reresearch the thing on underpowering your equipment. The cones do not move correctly when underpowered. This breaks them. I know it sounds totally counter-intuitive, but that's the way it is. Also why overpowering doesn't hurt, you can overpower and because the cones are still moving correctly until you start to raise the volume higher than it can handle... doesn't hurt it. However, very bad idea to do because you can blow it up really easy if your levels are too high... that's when having too much power is a problem.

[randomboy]

Shartley, I'm with you on this, cept for the fact I enjoy the SPL comps a bit more than the slow and boring SQ comps http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif I more than enjoy a very clean and sonically sound system, but for some reason I have something against using the AC in my car, so not only does it have to sound good, its gotta sound good when loud enough to be heard over the roar of the wind http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

[randomboy]

Miscue, I had another few people read this, we are both right, you however are wrong about "breaking the cones" http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Goblyn]

I am going be installing my system into my truck soon but already have the parts. They include a Sony 600DSP head unit, Precision Power amp (4)5x7's(stock),(4)8" subs(Infinity Kappa), and an electronic x-over(Yamaha). I am looking at some Infinity Reference 5x7's to replace the stock speakers soon. It may not thump real hard but it should put out some very clear/clean sound reproduction....

[shartley]

randomboy:
I would have to agree on the SPL comps being more interesting than the SQ comps. But we both know that most of the people who put in these ear splitting systems do NOT do it for Comp reasons.

But you confused me..... you said:
<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
I more than enjoy a very clean and sonically sound system, but for some reason I have something against using the AC in my car, so not only does it have to sound good, its gotta sound good when loud enough to be heard over the roar of the wind. http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif</font>

hmmmm... What kind of WINDS do you have where you live? I know that the stock system in my Wife's Mini-Van is more than loud enough to hear music in all driving conditions.. Windows open at 80mph (or higher.. shhhh)... Windows open in heavy traffic... etc. http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

Food for thought.

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

[Hasty8]

Let me ask you all something. What kind of jobs do you all have that let you lpay paintball and put $2000+ sound systems in your car?

Are they hiring?

[shartley]

Hasty8:
I think most of it is a Priority Issue over an Income issue. LOL

I have seen MANY people with outstanding cars, or stereos, or markers, etc... but live like rats in a cardboard box... eat Mac-n-cheese every night... etc.

I am not saying that this is the case with most HERE, but I know it is true for many places. You would be surprised what you could get if you neglect everything else. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

I live well, have great toys, etc.. but I also acquired them over time. A little here, a little there, and soon you are set. Needless to say, having a family puts a drain on "toy" budgets too, so not only Income levels need to be looked at, but lifestyle and expenses.

$17,000 a year goes a lot further for a single person with limited need, than a family of 6. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif (no, I am not saying I make only $17,000 a year... LOL)

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

[randomboy]

Well, not necessarily as "loud" seeming over the wind, but just as clear as at low levels parked http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

And me, I do/am doing it for the simple fact I like designing and building all this stuff and seeing the results I can get out of it. And the job I do that allows me to play paintball and put several thousand dollar systems in my car?? I work for 8.75/hr mowing for a landscaping company during the summer, and in 3 weeks I will be unemployed. lol. But I'll be in community college going to school about 1/2 as many hours as I did in high school, leaving alot more time for a little money makin on the side http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

Oh yeah, I gotta remember I have a monthly insurance payment too! http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Miscue]

In my case, I make very little cuz I'm a student. About $15,000 a year. But, I don't have a whole lot of bills and I live at home. I paid off my truck, so I just do gas/insurance/maintenance. Then I pay for my tuition/books, about $3500 a year. Then there's food. That leaves a decent amount of spending money, not a whole lot, but I can get a few toys sometimes.

Have a few toys at home too.. hehe. This is my favorite (No, of course 'I' did not buy that!):

http://www.liquidmagma.com/automags/miscuepiano.jpg

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"Don't mill your tank." - Miscue

Miscue's Profile (http://www.liquidmagma.com/automags/miscue.php)

[This message has been edited by Miscue (edited 08-07-2001).]

[pyro45]

1998 eclipse GSX (Dont have it at the moment, but its what I am getting.)

What work cant I do???....

[Goblyn]

As to the money issue, You may say that I am a little frugal as my equipment ( except the amp which is new, and 5x7's that I haven't bought yet) has been in 2 of my previous cars in the last 3 years. But it is still in excellent condition and I can't bring myself to put out the money to replace it( I don't see a need until something breaks). Besides it is a 2001 truck like I would have any money left to buy a lot of new stereo equipment. And my old stuff still sounds crystal clear.
As to recommending good new stuff I have always liked Infinity Kappas, Boston Pro's, and MB Quart for speakers. Zapco is tops as far as amps go, Precision Power is also good(in my own humble opinion).But your best bet is to go to the audio store and listen to it for youself and find what you like and can afford(hence the reason I have a PPI amp instead of Zapco). Well talk to you all later...

[Miscue]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by pyro45:
WOW... I was not aware We had so many Experts here at AO... This is amazing. Now, if I may get some input, What companies/models of speakers , subs and head units do you guys recomend...

(Just getting a little input....)

I am looking at getting Phenix Gold subs for my car, They run like around the $150 range or something.
Thanks.</font>


Have you looked into AlumaPro subs? I believe they are in that price range... they are very musical subs... don't need much of an amp, and they look really good if you're into showing off your stuff.


------------------
"Don't mill your tank." - Miscue

Miscue's Profile (http://www.liquidmagma.com/automags/miscue.php)

[Fritzy]

I would suggest working the following path for a personal vehicle:

1. Sub/amp
2. Head unit
3. Front soundstage
4. several options, EQ, additional amp (depending on what happened in step 1), rear speakers, sound dampening, improved wiring

For a personal, daily driver vehicle the less complicated the better. you will notice the largest gain from the addition of a sub. In your price range i would really recommend the Infinity Kappa 10" sub. They have excellent sound quality, efficiency and prodigious output. You can spend a lot more and not gain anything. They also go in a small, sealed enclosure (0.6 ft3) which is the simplest to build. Sealed enclosures also exhibit the best power handling, tighter bass and low end extension. For an even less expensive option you could pick up a Rockford or MTX entry level sub and get pretty good performance as long as you have enough juice and a good enclosure (MDF, at least 3/4", glued, screwed and caulked).

The next choice is an amp. A modestly priced 2 channel amp can be bridged to a single sub with very good results. I recently installed an MTX road thunder amp (RT2400) in my sister's car. It cost $200 and puts out @400 watts bridged. Great for a sub and inexpensive. Rockford has slipped a bit lately, as they have started mass producing their stuff again. However, this has brought the price down and they still perform. Other good choices are Kicker Impulse amps. Relatively inexpensive and a nice, high current design. PPI, Phoenix Gold, Xtant, etc...are probably overkill in your situation.

Another option here is to buy a 4 channel amp if you are planning to amplify your front stage. With a car like the Eclipse one 4x50 or 4x75 amp will run your whole system and will have a basic, effective crossover to boot. This will put out between 200 and 300 watts to your sub (bridged).

The next decision is the head unit. I usually replace these for simplicity's sake, but I have seen systems run off a hi/low converter that were very listenable. However, if you are going to go that route, avoid using an amp's internal hi level inputs. They generally don't alow you to adjust the line level, which will greatly reduce your amp's effective output. Spend the $30 on a simple AudioLink.

If you do replace the head many CD players can be had for $150. However, these usually do not have a non-fading output. I would recommend a slightly better unit with a non-fading output as this is the best way to adjust your bass level on the fly. Adjusting your bass tone control or loudness usually sounds dreadful. Other than that it is strictly preference, they are all very similar in the below $400 price range.

Most people will tell you to concentrate your resources on your speakers as the electronics are all so similar (can you tell the differenct between .05%THD and .0005%THD, I don't think so). This is more true in home audio, but still applies to car audio, especially for the non-competition user.

However, there are some very nice, inexpensive options available today. I have heard a number of coaxials that sound excellent, but some are as much as a high end component set (Quart, Morel). I installed a pair of Kappa 6.5 coaxs in my sisters car. Cost @ $150 and sound quite good. I won't lie, my Boston's are a world apart, but the Infinity's are fine for most people. I would actually recommend them, or something like the Polk or Boston coax, over a cheap component set.

Rear speakers are the least of your worries. They are more likely to hamper your soundstage than help it. Run the stock rear speakers off your head unit and be done with it. You don't sit in the back anyway, right?

The rest is all gravy/show. So, in summary (now that I have gone on too long already) buy a single 10" sub ($150), 4 channel amp ($300), front speakers ($150) and a head unit ($200). Run the sub off the rear channels of the amp bridged, the front speakers off the front amp channels stereo, and the rear, stock speakers off the head unit. Use a non-fading output to feed the sub channels. I think you will find this works excellent for $800! Allow a few more bucks for box/wiring.

[Miscue]

If you want to go very cheap - w/o an ext. amp and stuff, this is what I recommend: (Don't read into anything, this is pretty much subjective stuff, and you should always audition your stuff first when possible):

In preparation for anyone who feels compelled to have to add your two cents and contradict me, I kindly ask you to not do it... please. Make recommendations of your own - if they are completely opposite of mine... that's peachy keen... I like seeing different opinions and ideas, especially since I'm not right always, I can easily miss things, and I realize this... but please don't address me directly, piss me off, and tell me 'I'm dead wrong.' I'm grumpy as it is with these pain meds... and I'm just trying to be nice/helpful and don't need any grief. My opinions do not come out of thin air, they are the result of hundreds of hours of research and study time... and odds are I know more than you do - and I don't feel like being told flat out that I'm wrong when you're just guessing and then I have the unsettling urge to defend myself and go about correcting your misconceptions. I won't bother and simply won't try helping anymore otherwise. Thank you.

Before you buy anything... be PATIENT PATIENT PATIENT. Do NOT rush your purchases, I can't stress this enough. When I first started, I made this mistake and wasted money... got jacked by local car audio shop. Build your system very slowly if you need, take months of deciding time. (especially when we don't all have unlimited streams of money) Do RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH. Read, and read, and read. Ask experienced people about it... alt.car.audio is a great place, also the forum at ampmanaudio.com is wonderful.

What to get -

Car Alarm: If they can see a stereo, they WILL try to break into your car to take it. These people are on drugs and will try anything. My truck was broken into twice... Lost a LOT of money. I didn't think it could happen to me. The one time I didn't park in my garage, they broke my window, stole $1000 worth of bowling equipment, and my subwoofer. The second time in school parking lot, in lot right next to Tropicana Avenue with plenty of light and thousands of passing cars.... I did not even have the faceplate on, it was in my pocket. The moron broke my window and tried stealing a useless deck w/o a faceplate. Ended up stealing nothing, but broke my window, destroyed my dash and deck with screwdriver (You CANNOT steal a deck with a screwdriver), and my A/C stopped working. I will have EVERYTHING concealed in my new system, plus window tint... etc. A good stereo is not worth getting broken into... it totally sucks if/when that happens.

Deck: Alpine, Kenwood, or Clarion in your price range. Ignore wattage ratings, makes no difference in choosing. Stay simple... don't get the deck with all the gadgets on it, the more you learn, the more you find them to be undesirable. Thing to worry about is number of pre-amp outputs in case you want to add amplifiers later. If you can get 3 for future (one for sub) that's good.

Decks to avoid: Sony, Eclipse. (I'm not saying they are bad, you can get better for same/less money.)

Speakers:
Polk Audio, Kenwood, Alpine are good choices... avoid Sony. Your front speakers are most important, not the back. If you can get 6.5 components, that's good. If no room, no biggie, you can get smaller. If you have a REALLY small car, you can get mid-horns like the IDQs, but they cost some money. I'd stick with components or coaxials... I'm not a triaxial fan... more not always better. Of course, models vary, sometimes someone will come out with a nice one...

As for the back... these are 'rear fill' speakers. You don't want to be able to tell that they are even there. You DON'T need anything fancy at all, entry level lines of speakers are fine.

Wires:
You can just get the cheap stuff if you must, but good idea to get something decent.

Sub (in case you wanted one): Well, since you're skipping the amp to save money.. you can try a cheap powered sub or something. Bazooka tube ain't a bad deal... I dunno if Kicker has powered bass stations, but if they did that wouldn't be bad.

Ok... well this is if you go cheap w/o going ultra cheap... will still be way better than stock usually. Mid-range, High-end, and competition level is a completely different story.

------------------
"Don't mill your tank." - Miscue

Miscue's Profile (http://www.liquidmagma.com/automags/miscue.php)

[This message has been edited by Miscue (edited 08-07-2001).]

[Automag ReTro]

FACTORY SYSTEMS ARE THE BEST!!!! Well, not really. I have an extremely small British car whose alternator does not put out enough power to run amps, subs or what not. I simply have a Panasonic DFX700U head unit(day night glow one)with two Kenwood 4-way 6x9. Not much, but pretty much all i can fit and afford. If i did run an amp, my car probably wouldn't start.

[pyro45]

Here was my current plan... It may receive adjustments.

Front:
*Knows Jack about front speakers*

Rear:
2 pioneer 6x9 4 ways

Head unit:
New JVC Kamelion, the one right under the Voice interface model

Subs:
2 12" Phenix Golds [Not sure of the brand that makes the specific box my freind has it and it sounds very good]

Amps:
1 Power acustic Ice amp at 400 x 2 in watts
or 2 300 watt new calaforia amps (not sure if they are even officialy on the market, but my buddy has one and its nice)

2 100x2 pyle amps with gauges to power the inside speakers.


Thanks for the help guys....

[Richter]

If you want the best get speakers made by Treo Engineering.

Treos are what created the loudest active vehicle on the DB Drag Racing competition circuit.

You can get them at high end stereo stores around the country or through Metro Audio Dynamics

http://www.metroaudiodynamics.com/

buddy has 'em in his mustang and they are awesome.

Oh yeah, Treo also sponsored my paintball team this year http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

[pyro45]

WOW... I was not aware We had so many Experts here at AO... This is amazing. Now, if I may get some input, What companies/models of speakers , subs and head units do you guys recomend...

(Just getting a little input....)

Next I would also Like to address the $ issue. I have been into care audio for about 5 years now, and there is no way on earth I can afford even $300 for a sub. I am only 16 And thats about 40 hours of work right there. I am looking at getting Phenix Gold subs for my car, They run like around the $150 range or something. I am not sure, but Anyway I can get them list for 80... I am sure that compared to what you use ALL I can afford is low end audio... I plan on spending about $800 on my whole system.(CD, Subs, Amps, 6x9s and dash speakers)... What do you guys think I could get for that, that with good staging would sound respectable. Or rather $800 is what I can get it for, Pretend you have $1200 to work with.

Thanks.

[Hasty8]

The first question to ask is what kid of car do you have.

The second is how much of the work can you do on your own.

I built the custom boxes for my rear 6x9's and mounted them as well as doing all the wiring and stuff.

The only thing that I bought which was current year was my current headunit. Last years Sony the plays/records monidisc and controls a cd player. The Bazooka tube is bout 10 years old but still sounds great and the 3 inchers in my dash have abuilt in bass choke that prevents bass from going to the tweeters on my door frame.

I would say that I probably spent about 1200 on my cars sound system over the past 10 years and it sounds fine to me. Deep bass, super clear and sharp highs and mids and economy to boot.

Start small and work your way up from there. Look for cheaper (price, not quality) that has a few of the functions you look for. Since my speakers had a built in crossover function in the there was no need to buy one.

Research, research, research.

[randomboy]

Pyro, I'm assuming your looking at the qx series of subs? My friend was gonna get 4 of the 10's to put in his Maxima, not a bad choice at all http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

Honestly, up until this point, most everything I bought was used, and you can save a heck of alot of money doing it that way. But even just for a single or a few subs, depending on the enclosure you use, you could use anywhere from 100 to 400 watts. And a 40x2 or 50x2 amp for up front is more than sufficient. Always keep in mind wiring costs too, rca's, power wire, speaker wire, remote wire, wiring terminals, all that fun stuff. To look for some good deals on used stuff, the sites I recommend are www.termpro.com (http://www.termpro.com) www.sounddomain.com (http://www.sounddomain.com) www.elitecaraudio.com (http://www.elitecaraudio.com) http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif Happy hunting.

A good point by hasty, if you can build your own speaker enclosures, you are well off, the first box I had, I had made for me at the low low cost of 150 dollars. Now I can build some funky shape boxes that are quite a bit more elaborate for the cost of materials which is generally about 30 bucks, more if I have to bust out the fiberglass http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by randomboy (edited 08-07-2001).]

[MagMan5446]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Richter:
If you want the best get speakers made by Treo Engineering.

Treos are what created the loudest active vehicle on the DB Drag Racing competition circuit.

You can get them at high end stereo stores around the country or through Metro Audio Dynamics

http://www.metroaudiodynamics.com/

buddy has 'em in his mustang and they are awesome.

Oh yeah, Treo also sponsored my paintball team this year http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

</font>


My cousin, he's 17 and has put about at least (last time I checked) 9,000$. Everything he has is made by Treo. This is about the best sound quality you can hear. He usually doesn't put it more than 1/4 volume, otherwise he blows out the windows. That's if they're closed anyway.

He lives down in Stockton, so you gotta have a loud car with a whole lotta bass. When I'm riding with him, I swear, everytime the bass drum gets hit, my heart skips a beat.

------------------
"And Tomorrow"

Today is filled with anger, fueled with hidden hate
Scared of being outkast, afraid of common fate
Today is built on tragedies which no one want's to face
Nightmares to humanity and morally disgraced
Tonight is filled with Rage, violence in the air
Children bred with ruthlessness cause no one at home cares
Tonight I lay my head down but the pressure never stops,
knowing that my sanity content when I'm dropped
But tomorrow I see change, a chance to build a new,
build on spirit intent of heart and ideas based on truth.
Tomorrow I wake with second wind and strong because of pride
I know I fought with all my heart to keep the dream alive




R.I.P Tupac Amaru Shakur/Makaveli
1971-1996

[randomboy]

Hahaha, Richter, before I even got to the end of your post my mind was already saying "hes either a dealer OR hes sponsored by them, cause that sounds like a salesmans pitch." http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

And Magman.....unless your friend is hitting 160+ db's at 1/4 volume, I seriously doubt hes blowing his windows out.

Heh, and Richter, define the word "best" for us all, I want to know exactly what makes a speaker "the best speaker." http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by randomboy (edited 08-08-2001).]

[pyro45]

I have personally seen a guy blow out his windsheild while he was in his car... Loudness isn;t was does it, its vibration. Although at that time I had no idea what he was talking about when he told us what he was running..

[Person]

Wow im evil. ^UP^ <this was the thread at the very bottom of page 194 :P

[rehme]

Wow im evil. ^UP^

you like posting on 2 year old threads dont you! :p

[MOOFROG]

[QUOTE=Fritzy]Well, I still use my old Hifonics Atlas(series VII, back when Hifonics was awesome, not their current crap)


I have the same amp and do not know what wire is what there is just an orange,green, and purple. can you tell me what is +, -, and remote please