ok, Flatline problems, Emag problems, AND Retromag problems. (just one of those days)

Ok, here we go. First off, I have 2 3K flatline systems, 2 Retromags, and an Emag. All products were purchased used.
Here's the setups for each gun.

Emag:
Older emag (sn in the 300's). Lvl 10 installed. everything else is stock, i believe. 3k flatline attached to it at about 800 psi output.

Retromag #1

Longnose non-foamie bolt. Eclipse body kit (body rail, foregrip, ect. ) Trigger frame is a P3 frame (old school, not made anymore. it's non-45. . . very similar to the stock frame, but w/ a double trigger.)
3k flatline at about 850 output.

Retromag #2

Regular hardnose bolt. ANS body rail. Z-grip. Uses same flatline as the other retromag ( i just switch them back and forth.)


Problems:

Flatline #1: WHen i tried to put this tank on the emag, all was well till i started shooting. IMMEDIATE SEVERE drop-off. This was noted in all 3 firing modes. Aparrently if i shot anything over 11 or so shots per second, the flatline just starved the mess out of the Emag valve. Tank currently seems to be working fine on a friend of mine's classic valve mag.

Flatline #2: Seems to work ok on emag. can get a little bit of burps and farts but thats Most likely due to the fact that i had the wrong spring in the lvl 10 kit today.
seems to be causing some dropoff on the retrovalve guns. i think the reason no drop off was noticed on the emag w/ this one today was because i just couldnt get it going that fast (more on that below)

Emag: other than me having the wrong level 10 spring in, there a re a couple things giving me fits w/ this gun. First off, the trigger pin. While trying to learn how to adjust the trigger last week, i took the trigger out from the frame, (because i couldnt get the set screw for the magnets in the trigger to budge. It still wont move.) When i tried to but it back in, the trigger pin would not go in all the way. I did follow the instructions- - - pushed the pin out from the right hand side of the gun, and tried to put it back in from the left. The pin would go in until there was about 2 or 3 mm left sticking out from the left side, then it would go no further. i tried tapping it with a little punch, and of course the infamous small rubber mallet. inadvertantly, during this process i missed once with the hammer and shattered the fire selector switch. oops.
I ordered a new trigger pin from AGD and a new selector switch. tried the new pin today. same thing.
I wound up shaving off the end of the pin, just so i could operate the switch. Still not happy with this one. I want a fresh pin in there all the way.

Second, the stuck set screw in the trigger. (mentioned above)

Third, while i was charging my battery the other day, it became VERY hot. Very hot as in "i picked it up, cussed really loud and dropped it on the floorboard of the car"
It finally cooled off about 20 minutes later. Is this normal?

Fourth, about a week ago, while messing with the gun with the electronics on, i noticed the grip frame becoming very warm. seemed kinda odd to me. . . is this one normal?

fifth, the aparrent shoot down problems while in Any mode, and with either of my two tanks. may be a tank prob, may be a gun prob.


Retromag 1.

Was working O.K. However, even with turning up the input pressure to about 950 or so, i was not getting much at all in the reactivity department. I could shoot the gun no faster than i could when it had a classic valve in it.

SO, i started messing with it. Big oops.

first thing i did was put the shortest Power tube spacer in there i could find, .215. Then, i took out the on/ off pin and measured it with some calipers. - - it was about 0.749 . ( i figured the deviation from the alleged stock legnth of 0.750 could be due to miscalibrated calipers.)

I had an extra Retrovalve on/ off pin lying around, so i measured that one, too. Same legnth.

Then, i took one of the pins and quickly wacked off about 0.004. ('quickly' most likely being the problem here. . . )
I slapped her back together, and it was great. . . very light trigger pull, easy to sweetspot at about 850 input pressure. little bit of drop off was noticed. I figured it was the tank.

Well, i took it back apart and noticed that my job shortening the on off pin was pretty messy, and that the new surface where the pin contacted the back of the sear was kinda uneven. so i very slowly evened it out.

I put the gun back together, and now it feels like im squeezing a sponge for a trigger.
A slow pull on the trigger gets a leak from the barrel, and a nasty farting noise for a fire.

I put the 'stock legnth' on off pin back in and there's no difference.

No bolt stick, it just dosent want to fire hardly at all. Attempted rapid fire resulted in what sounded like 200 magic elves all burping in unison. it wasnt pretty.

I thought i had seen every conceivable problem with a mag. . today i think i invented a new one.


Retromag #2

Havent really messed this one up yet, cause ive been sepnding too much time with the others.

However, even with the retrovalve in the gun, there is no reactivity to the trigger hardly at all, and it is very easy to short stroke the gun w/ the z-grip.




Here's what im thinking about doing about all of this.

I work in a paintball shop. I fix guns all the time. Heck, i fix mags all the time. However, im betting that, since all these products were gotten used, and for the cost of me having to order parts kits and toatally rebuild all of them, and THEN the cost of parts for me to resolve the tolorence problems with the retromags not being reactive, it would be a heck of alot cheaper to just box up all my poo and ship it up to AGD and have them take a look at it.

Any suggestions?


Thanks in advance,
Carl

You need to take the AGD tech exam. There you will learn NEVER to mess with the on/off pin.:D

The emag battery will get warm to the touch while charging, but not hot. It shouldn't get hot while on the gun either. This usually indicates a shorted wire somewhere in the battery pack.


Have you checked the sear assembly of your retro mags?

Sounds like the flatlines need a revamping. They may be part of the drop-off and short stroking problem.

Hope you get it fixed.

Tunaman, THats why i only messed with the on/ off as an experiment. I had an extra stock pin lying around, so i could put it back to normal if things didnt work out. Precise on/off pin legnth is one of the issues cited with tolorence issues in drop-in retro mags not working exactly like they should. I have even read posts where some people have sent the gun in to AGD to have a specific legnth on/off pin installed to help ensure the retrovalve works more like an RT should.

My problem is simply that, after putting the stock legnth pin back in, the gun is now doing some really funny stuff.

athomas,

Yeah, i was figuring there may be a short somewhere in the electrical system. Maybe somewhere in the charger (causeing the reallly hot battery while charging) and maybe somwhere in the gun wiring also (causing the warm gripframe that day)

yes, i examined the sears of the retromags. both of them show a little wear- - - the 'gold ' color is wearing off.

like i said, this stuff was gotten used, and i picked up the valves and sears only from people. Not sure if they had any mods in they're gun that would have caused unnatural sear wear. However, im willing to bet that replacing the sears in both guns would be a good thing.

As far as the flatlines go, from what ive read the drop off may be a result of some dirty o-rings associated with the on/off switch. In that case, im not going to even go there. Im definitly leaning toward boxing everything up and sending it up to AGD to have everything looked over, checked and parts replaced as needed. I just hope they can 'fix' the tolorence issues with the retormags so they shoot more like a rt should.

Thanks for you comments so far, keep em comming!

Carl

Quote:

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Originally posted by Smokee_2_7
Yeah, i was figuring there may be a short somewhere in the electrical system. Maybe somewhere in the charger (causeing the reallly hot battery while charging) and maybe somwhere in the gun wiring also (causing the warm gripframe that day)

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I figure if there is a short causing both problems, then it is probably in the battery pack itself. Take the front battery grip apart and examine for a pinched wire.

ok, will do later this afternoon. THanks

Quote:

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Originally posted by athomas


I figure if there is a short causing both problems, then it is probably in the battery pack itself. Take the front battery grip apart and examine for a pinched wire.

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Nop it's not a shortcut. It's impossible to load a battery with a shortcut, you'll burn the fuse in the 12V plug (likely).

I bet the charger is faulty and doesn't stop charging the battery when the charge is at 100%.
If the battery is too much charged, the temperature starts to climb quickly.
It can go very high, and destroy the battery (or in some case make it explode).

Was the led green at the end of the charge, or still red?

@++

when i took the battery off the charger, the led was still red.

thats supposed to mean it's still charging, right?

- - if so, that could be the problem.

Yes that's right.

Normally it loads the battery quickly (red), then switch to a slow charge (green). In general the slow charge is there to keep the battery fully loaded over the night for exemple.

In your case it seems the charger is not working correctly, and keeps charging the battery at the highest current.

Was your battery discharged before you start charging it?

@++

A new or dead battery is essentially a short circuit. The charger limits the amount of charge current delivered to the battery. That is why the charger will not blow a fuse if the battery contains a short. The short will prevent the battery from charging properly, however. The battery charger will remain red because it never gets the battery up to a minimum value that indicates even a partial charge.

The fact that the battery also shows signs of heating while in use on the gun is also a symptom of a short in the battery case causing rapid discharge.

I would guess the shorted wire is probably under one of the contacts. That may be why it only exibits these tendencies while the battery is connected to something, thus pushing the contact down onto the wire.

It's easy to check if there's a shortcut.

Check the output voltage of the battery. The nominal tension is 18V, but will likely be a bit higher when the battery is fully loaded.

If something is shortened, the tension will be lower.

@++

Just throw everything in a big box, send it to AGD and it will all come back working like it should.

BlackVCG, thats the best idea yet. I talked to jon today- - - and thats what im gonna do. Hopefully will send everything out monday.


Thanks for the help guys,

Carl

I had very similar problems with my flatline a few months ago. they sent me o-rings to replace around the pin, in the on/off and gave me instructions where to clean. But i still expireinced severe drop off after 2-3 shots and eratic output and eratic velocity. Luckly i just sent it o AGD and they fixed it. They really do have the absolute best customer service in the business. I hope all of your equipment is fixed and workin in top condition when you get it back

ok for ur retro mags, I had the same problems. Now this may seem stupid but take every single o ring out of the valves oil/replace them then put er back together i did this and magicly my gun worked. ANy input over like 800 and youll get good reactivness. are you using the brocken flatlines on the retro mags. Cuz if they are broken its prob not helping. Try using a frinds tank. REplace th reg seat will help too.

Ive already re-built both retrovalves, and replaced the reg seats in the flatlines. Im just gonna send everything in on monday.
thanks for the help, though.