Level 10 bolt and pump kit

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03-12-2013, 05:49 PM
GoatBoy

Level 10 bolt and pump kit

Sorry, my google-fu on this one is weak.

Is the Level 10 bolt compatible with the pump kit? Or are they not compatible?

Before you ask: I played a pump/pistol event a few weeks ago, and the paint was the most brittle I have ever seen. The high pressure blast from my Trracer was enough to break at least half the paint I tried to shoot out of it. I put it in my T9.1 and it blew up in there as well.

My thinking is the LX bolt, which already fires at a lower pressure, might have soft enough early-cycle acceleration to keep such brittle paint from breaking.

Can't tell if it would work with a pump kit; intuitively, they appear incompatible.
03-12-2013, 07:57 PM
Justus

From what I've read, yes. And no.

You can get it to work (there are people who have claimed to do it), but it takes more fiddling to keep it from leaking, since the point of a pump kit is to keep the bolt from fully resetting.
03-12-2013, 11:19 PM
GoatBoy

Schrodinger's Pump

Yeah, I'm trying to work the mechanics out in my head.

The key is for the on/off to stay off.

That means the bolt needs to reliably, consistently stick in a way that holds the sear down, thus the on/off is kept off. And stays that way until the pump forcibly actuates it.

Maybe a longer trigger pin will help with this...

Or a tweaked ULT...

Unsure if the increased LX bolt spring interacts any differently with the wave spring either...
03-12-2013, 11:34 PM
captian pinky

i run a xvalve in mine
03-13-2013, 08:30 AM
bbotts77

There was something about this recently. I seem to remember someone saying that you need to ground down the back of the powertube tip a little, so your carrier sits a tiny bit farther forward. This way, the exhaust hole on the bolt is still closed off when the bolt is locked onto the sear, but being pushed forward by the wave spring. I'm pretty sure it was AThomas who was talking about it.
03-13-2013, 08:45 AM
need4reebs

can flipping the carrier over fix that? it would change the location of of the o-ring with out having to grind down a the power tube tip, or possibly put a couple shims in before the carrier if that moved the o-ring up to much?

its just a question that hopefully someone will answer...its not something ive tried or heard about being done tho?
03-13-2013, 09:25 AM
BigEvil

The variables would be the spring tension and adjusting the location of where the bolt vents by experimenting with the shims.
03-13-2013, 11:35 AM
GoatBoy

I actually thought of adjusting the vent point on the LX bolt, but decided that it would interfere with the LX bolt's inherent operation, which I didn't want. For these purposes, I want the bolt to be 100% functioning as intended (aside from bolt stick).

So if the bolt is ahead of the vent point at rest, I'm OK with that as long as the on/off is ... off. Hence... longer on/off pin or deliberately maladjusted ULT. If my recharge sucks slightly more with a longer on/off pin... that's OK... because it's a pump...
03-13-2013, 01:11 PM
Justus

Here's a thought: Ditch the wave spring completely, use a gold bolt spring, and use a carrier that is slightly too tight. The natural bolt stick would keep the valve from resetting, and then your pump stroke would only have the resistance of a tight-fitting o-ring rather than the wave spring. Talk about smooth!

I mean, the entire purpose of the wave spring is to induce bolt stick anyway, right?
03-13-2013, 01:12 PM
need4reebs

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoatBoy

I actually thought of adjusting the vent point on the LX bolt, but decided that it would interfere with the LX bolt's inherent operation, which I didn't want. For these purposes, I want the bolt to be 100% functioning as intended (aside from bolt stick).

So if the bolt is ahead of the vent point at rest, I'm OK with that as long as the on/off is ... off. Hence... longer on/off pin or deliberately maladjusted ULT. If my recharge sucks slightly more with a longer on/off pin... that's OK... because it's a pump...

oh it will work fine with the lvl 10 bolt, there were problems with small leaks from the time the shot was fired until the marker was pumped and the bolt reset
03-13-2013, 01:16 PM
need4reebs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justus

Here's a thought: Ditch the wave spring completely, use a gold bolt spring, and use a carrier that is slightly too tight. The natural bolt stick would keep the valve from resetting, and then your pump stroke would only have the resistance of a tight-fitting o-ring rather than the wave spring. Talk about smooth!

I mean, the entire purpose of the wave spring is to induce bolt stick anyway, right?

haha very true, but the Gold spring would be to strong for the carrier o-ring...but if it did work, yeah that would be Smooth
03-13-2013, 01:45 PM
Justus

Are you thinking about the silver spring? The gold spring is the shortest of the three.

Silver = long, and needs cut most of the time. A cut one is the ultimate in fine-tuning the L10 bolt for maximum softness.
Red = medium, pretty much perfect for a soft, hassle-free L10 setup
Gold = short, called the "God spring" because it just works - but doesn't give a ton of resistance for a soft bolt

Worn gold springs (or black springs, the gold spring's predecessor of the same length) are what are used in most pump kits in combo with the wave spring.
03-13-2013, 01:52 PM
need4reebs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justus

Are you thinking about the silver spring? The gold spring is the shortest of the three.

Silver = long, and needs cut most of the time. A cut one is the ultimate in fine-tuning the L10 bolt for maximum softness.
Red = medium, pretty much perfect for a soft, hassle-free L10 setup
Gold = short, called the "God spring" because it just works - but doesn't give a ton of resistance for a soft bolt

Worn gold springs (or black springs, the gold spring's predecessor of the same length) are what are used in most pump kits in combo with the wave spring.

yeah the Gold spring is the spring i was talking about, a normal gold spring would be too strong for just a tight carrier ring, but a worn gold spring might work?

im sorry i think i misunderstood you when you said to take out the wave spring and just use the gold spring, i think you meant the worn gold spring? correct??
03-13-2013, 01:56 PM
Spider-TW

The only problem is the venting, so I would go with the shaving of the power tube tip until the leak stops. You can always put more shims in if you take out the wave spring.
03-13-2013, 04:31 PM
athomas

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoatBoy

I actually thought of adjusting the vent point on the LX bolt, but decided that it would interfere with the LX bolt's inherent operation, which I didn't want. For these purposes, I want the bolt to be 100% functioning as intended (aside from bolt stick).

So if the bolt is ahead of the vent point at rest, I'm OK with that as long as the on/off is ... off. Hence... longer on/off pin or deliberately maladjusted ULT. If my recharge sucks slightly more with a longer on/off pin... that's OK... because it's a pump...

The on-off pin remains inside of the small on-off top oring sealing the air passage until the sear can actually rotate forward. The sear can only rotate forward if the bolt is fully back in the reset position. Its not the pin that is causing leaking out the front in a pump mag anyway. Its the exposed vent hole. Normally there is residual pressure in the front chamber when the bolt resets. If the vent hole is exposed, that air is allowed to escape, so its wasted.

The vent distance doesn't affect the operation of the level 10 for anti-chop. The vent distance only affects how far forward the bolt needs to be before it can vent the excess air out of the chamber so that the bolt spring can push it back to the reset position. In a pump mag, the wave spring would hold the bolt forward causing the vent hole to be permanently exposed which would allow it to vent all residual air out of the chamber.

The level 10 will work for a pump mag as it normally does for any mag. The secret to get it to work without leaking air is too allow the carrier oring to sit far enough forward so that it is always in front of the vent hole. We don't need the vent hole for a pump mag since you are manually resetting the bolt anyway, so you don't need the spring force to be larger than the residual chamber pressure force. If you have a spare powertube tip, file it down to allow the carrier to sit farther forward. Flipping the carrier won't work, because the oring can be pushed forward out of the carrier.
03-13-2013, 05:55 PM
need4reebs

Quote:

Originally Posted by athomas

The on-off pin remains inside of the small on-off top oring sealing the air passage until the sear can actually rotate forward. The sear can only rotate forward if the bolt is fully back in the reset position. Its not the pin that is causing leaking out the front in a pump mag anyway. Its the exposed vent hole. Normally there is residual pressure in the front chamber when the bolt resets. If the vent hole is exposed, that air is allowed to escape, so its wasted.

The vent distance doesn't affect the operation of the level 10 for anti-chop. The vent distance only affects how far forward the bolt needs to be before it can vent the excess air out of the chamber so that the bolt spring can push it back to the reset position. In a pump mag, the wave spring would hold the bolt forward causing the vent hole to be permanently exposed which would allow it to vent all residual air out of the chamber.

The level 10 will work for a pump mag as it normally does for any mag. The secret to get it to work without leaking air is too allow the carrier oring to sit far enough forward so that it is always in front of the vent hole. We don't need the vent hole for a pump mag since you are manually resetting the bolt anyway, so you don't need the spring force to be larger than the residual chamber pressure force. If you have a spare powertube tip, file it down to allow the carrier to sit farther forward. Flipping the carrier won't work, because the oring can be pushed forward out of the carrier.

wow that makes alot of sense...especially about the flipping the carrier over...was thinking the powertube tip would keep the carrier oring in place

if the power tube tip is filed down that wont cause any issues when switching back to a mech mag will it???
03-13-2013, 07:10 PM
GoatBoy

Looking over athomas's post, yeah, I guess as long as the bolt is anywhere but home, all the extra meat on the front of the sear (always wondered what that was for) should prevent the on/off from opening up, so I guess that's fine.

Hrm... I'm really just going to have to experiment with this.

What are the specs for the wave spring and washer? I don't need the full pump kit to experiment with this. I assume Smalley made the wave spring; just need to know which one.
03-13-2013, 11:18 PM
need4reebs

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoatBoy

Looking over athomas's post, yeah, I guess as long as the bolt is anywhere but home, all the extra meat on the front of the sear (always wondered what that was for) should prevent the on/off from opening up, so I guess that's fine.

Hrm... I'm really just going to have to experiment with this.

What are the specs for the wave spring and washer? I don't need the full pump kit to experiment with this. I assume Smalley made the wave spring; just need to know which one.

here are the specs...hope that helps:
http://haveblue.org/tech/automag/index.html
03-14-2013, 06:14 AM
athomas

Quote:

Originally Posted by need4reebs

if the power tube tip is filed down that wont cause any issues when switching back to a mech mag will it???

Yes it will, which is why I mentioned that you should do it to a spare tip. You should maintain an unmodified tip for normal valve use. If you shave a 1/16" off the powertube tip, you can use a 1/16" shim to add it back, so you can use the same tip for both if you want.