A Pneumatic Trigger from G-Force? Here's what we want!

Okay... so in this thread, G-Force announced that they will be producing a pneumatic trigger for mags. Many people (myself included) somewhat doubt that this is legit or feasible.


HOWEVER, I'm starting this new thread with the idea that this pneumatic trigger is real, and I am starting this thread with the intention of communicating to G-Force what our expectations and desires are for a pneumatic frame.

So, please don't bash the idea here. (You can do that in the other thread.) Instead, I want you to post your ideas for the perfect pneumatic frame. Who knows? G-Force just might get it right.

if its a complete frame, i want it to take agd spec triggers

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Originally Posted by jaywmustang

if its a complete frame, i want it to take agd spec triggers

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QFT!

It's the only way to go.

My expectations for a pneumatic frame:


1. All penumatics should be completely internal (like this one). You should be able to bolt the frame onto your gun, screw your tank into the ASA, and go.
2. There should also be an option to buy just the pneumatics. Many of us have good frames already, and if the G-Force frame is offered with a Intelliframe, we don't want to downgrade from our UMF or Chimera.
3. The frame needs to be cost-effective. We can build our own for $100 (on top of the frame)... so we're not going to pay $300 for a fancy production version. However, if I could buy a frame for under $200 or the pneumatics for under $100, then I'd be all over that.
4. The frame needs to come SOON. If I have to wait two years for this... then screw it. I'm building my own. But if it can come out in the next six months or so, then I'll be very tempted.
5. When the frame is ready, someone here on AO should get a loaner frame to test. I for one don't really trust what companies say about their own products. But if you give one of these frames to pneumagger or papa)smurf or one of the others who have built their own penumags, and then that person tells me the thing is awesome, then I'll be convinced.

So, those are my thoughts. Anyone else have some?

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Originally Posted by jaywmustang

if its a complete frame, i want it to take agd spec triggers

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Amen to that too!

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Originally Posted by rawbutter

5. When the frame is ready, someone here on AO should get a loaner frame to test. I for one don't really trust what companies say about their own products. But if you give one of these frames to pneumagger or papa)smurf or one of the others who have built their own penumags, and then that person tells me the thing is awesome, then I'll be convinced.

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I will volunteer my services for #5. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rawbutter

My expectations for a pneumatic frame:


1. All penumatics should be completely internal (like this one). You should be able to bolt the frame onto your gun, screw your tank into the ASA, and go.
2. There should also be an option to buy just the pneumatics. Many of us have good frames already, and if the G-Force frame is offered with a Intelliframe, we don't want to downgrade from our UMF or Chimera.
3. The frame needs to be cost-effective. We can build our own for $100 (on top of the frame)... so we're not going to pay $300 for a fancy production version. However, if I could buy a frame for under $200 or the pneumatics for under $100, then I'd be all over that.
4. The frame needs to come SOON. If I have to wait two years for this... then screw it. I'm building my own. But if it can come out in the next six months or so, then I'll be very tempted.
5. When the frame is ready, someone here on AO should get a loaner frame to test. I for one don't really trust what companies say about their own products. But if you give one of these frames to pneumagger or papa)smurf or one of the others who have built their own penumags, and then that person tells me the thing is awesome, then I'll be convinced.

So, those are my thoughts. Anyone else have some?

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Your expectations may be a bit unreasonable:

#1) is reasonable and i would expect the same... but it requires the use of specific asa's and on/offs. The customer base may not like the limitation on choices as they want to run remote, use a large drop, use an adjustable flatline system, etc. Logically they should offer three types including front LPR mount on the VA, foregrip LPR, or Internal LPR. The pneumatics should have a Q/D hose fitting the frame - that way a user with a front LPR can change ove to a vert reg or internal LPR - mine is like that and it's great for dissassembly.

#2) A kit would pretty much require modifying the frame in some way. Companies can't expect the end consumer to be tech savvy to install a system on their own and warrent it - let alone just use it correctly.

#3) A factory frame would have to have part interchangablity/replacability, should work more reliably, have quality control, and be a clean professional frame. Why would you expect a professional product to cost the same as a home product if it will be better? Plus you have to consider there are a number of people who don't have the equipment/skill to do thier own modifications. As long as the factory product is better they will charge whatever they reasonably want. When PTP/DW markets a frame I will be willing to pay alot because I expect it to br WAY better than anyone's home frame. All in all, a $250-$300 pricetag would be fairly reasonable - after all, we all got Xvalves and they were that much. ;)

#4) I'm going to quote many AO distributers here...
If you want a product you can choose to have it any two of these ways: a)cheap b)well built c)fast

#5) Community testing seems like a good idea. I imagine an AGD tech, TK, or some other AGD qualified buisiness unit would have to evaluate the product and determine if AGD will condone it's use on the product. Videos and reviews would be released from there and Tom always seems to keep his flock safe. :)

If the patent litigation can be avoided by a 3rd party - which I doubt between PTP and DW standing on the hill... I would definately buy one if they're good.
However I am not holding my breath for this one.

I agree with the all internal pneumatics. However, a effective access to the reg to adjust trigger pressure would be there.

I understand that if the pneumatics are internal, then we might have to sacrafice a rail and trigger frame, that's ok in my eyes. (To go pneumatic, you gotta sacrafice something unless you build it yourself.) But at least have options if they become available. Everyone likes variety, and automag owners are about as diverse in their marker setups as anyone else.

What rawbutter said, cost effective. I know you can build one with the right tools and the conversion is cheap, but most people don't have the tools, so I would expect the price to be over $100 easy, but keep it reasonable. Theres enough money grubbing companies in paintball, we don't need another.

I'll try to think of more, but rawbutter hit all the main points. :)

Hey:

To make me or any of my customers buy I would require the following:

Made to AGD Spec. This includes: trigger, quality of items used, spacing, etc. etc.

All internal operation. I do not want to attach an LPR to the Foregrip for a variety of reasons: Slotted Foregrips-Some of the rails offered to the Mag community are able to adjust the distance their foregrip sits from their frame. Yes, you could offer a variety of hose lengths that would travel through the rail-BUT I do not want to deal w/ excess, hinder my abilities to change the position throughout the day, or not have enough. Not to mention we have AM/MM Rails and RT Style based.

Bolt on and ready to go. I do not want to have to modify a sear-it should be included if it requires modification. But I do plan on having to attach an airline or two to run this set-up.

WORKING SAFETY. Many fields require a safety and will not allow markers who do not have one to play. Also, refer to AGD Spec.-yes, that puts it out of spec.

Dependability-One of the primary reasons Tom stated that AGD did not ever get a working PRODUCTION prototype h.A.I.R. trigger is because of the complexity of it. It should be easy to adjust and not need consistent work to function properly.

If this all can be pulled off-it meets all of my needs and I believe that it will sell 'relatively well.'

My thoughts,

-ClassicMagger

a NON integrated asa option. My biggest complaint with the one ptp posted....I don't want to have to use your asa if I don't want to(I like my CCM thank you....)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rawbutter

My expectations for a pneumatic frame:


1. All penumatics should be completely internal (like this one). You should be able to bolt the frame onto your gun, screw your tank into the ASA, and go.

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This is the only thing I really care about unless they offer several options including this one.

I dont want ANY microline p-hose exposed. I know autococker got away with it for a few years... but no.

Mags are rough and tumble and they need to stay that way.

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Originally Posted by MoeMag

I dont want ANY microline p-hose exposed. I know autococker got away with it for a few years... but no.

Mags are rough and tumble and they need to stay that way.

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A-freaking-men

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Originally Posted by Zone Drifter

What rawbutter said, cost effective. I know you can build one with the right tools and the conversion is cheap, but most people don't have the tools, so I would expect the price to be over $100 easy, but keep it reasonable. Theres enough money grubbing companies in paintball, we don't need another.

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Did you forget your :dodgy:? Regular mech frames are over $100. The pneumatic frame will have a ton more associated costs than just the frame. If the frame comes in under $200 I'll crap myself. Also, keep in mind this wont be a HUGE production item - so costs will be higher due to the small market for mag owners.

Let's look at the chimera:
I'd guess the production cost of running 50 frames to be around $75 apiece anodized.
An ASA or on/off probably costs bout $10 to make and anodize.
Off the shelf pneumatics are another $25 - so we'll say manufacturing a bunch on your own is $10 per set.
LPRs could be bought in bulk around $25 apiece from a distributer.

That's about $120 just getting parts and now you have to take time to assemble and test all of them. Then market, sell, and ship them and afterwards provide warranty and service. On top of it all, you have to make a profit.
I stick with my original $250+ hope :rolleyes:


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edit: and before any of you call shens...

When I was designing the first Cerberus frame I also designed a complete bolt on pneumatic frame. In fact that was the reason the frame was named the AirWalk... because the original designs I drew up were for a complete bolt on pneuframe. I looked into the costs of components and bringing it to just AO - just a handful of guys doing work in their spare time so-to-speak and the cost was pretty high. People would not have wanted to pay for $250 frames and my time more valuable to me otherwise. Also, I don't think jay or I would of wanted to dance on ptp's or dw's shoes. So the pneumatic version never really came to life and Jay manufactured the mech version of the Airwalk.

But, how many of us will commit to buy a pneumoframe from GT?

Will this company be content with making 100 frames at a manufacturing cost of $100 each, give them to the distributors at $140 to be sold to us at $200 so they would make a grand profit of $4000? And that is if 100 of us buys one each, something I doubt it will happen.

Following my skimpy logic, I don't think this company will ever get it out to the market. The economy of scale is not there.

Just think....how many thousands of IONs get sold every month vs. how many Mags gets sold every month?

All the kids playing speedball use IONs, Invert Minis, Angels, etc.

All the people playing woodsball use mostly Tippmans and old Spyders and once in a while I see an occasional BT-4 or MR1. Only once I have seen an Automag.

That means, that if I, as a manufacturer would make an accesory for a Tipmann, I have good chances of selling them at a reasonable price. If I make accesories for Automags....most likely will not sell them because I will have to price them extremely high to recover costs.

Conclusion: don't expect GT or licensee to get one to the market, ever.

Hybrid angle frame, nuff said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pneumagger

keep in mind this wont be a HUGE production item - so costs will be higher due to the small market for mag owners.

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True, it's hard enough to get parts around here without looking online. All the shops near me don't even know what an automag looks like, let alone carry any parts for them.

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Originally Posted by Pneumagger

On top of it all, you have to make a profit.
I stick with my original $250+ hope :rolleyes:

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Yeah, that's much more realistic. It would be relative to the valve costs, because a pneumatic frame is almost the same in cost for a functioning component as the valve itself.

Just another note on "Demand #3", remember while considering cost, this MIGHT be designed to improve performance of the valve, the hAir trigger was claimed to increase cycle rate of the valve, it pulled the sear back instead of the on/off, and force of the bolt hitting the sear to bring it back into ready position.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClassicMagger

Hey:

To make me or any of my customers buy I would require the following:

Made to AGD Spec. This includes: trigger, quality of items used, spacing, etc. etc.

-ClassicMagger

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A couple things that could be improved upon is the trigger, and a bigger trigger guard.
If it has the same ole worn out "AGD Spec" trigger and trigger frame, I wont be getting one.
I'd prefer to see a trigger similar to a Tunablade, with the hump on the bottom.
Best style walking trigger out. I have one of those on my Emag, basically the same thing,
a Nervous Trigger on my Viking, and again basically the same thing, an FBM delrin Wave trigger on the Borg.
So lets see some innovation here, at least offer some options, and not the same ole wobbly trigger. I for one have never been impressed with the stock triggers, or the small trigger guards, like an Intelliframe has.

:ninja:

simply:

one that isnt vaporware first and foremost.

secondly, blessing and review from TK or a Master Tech saying that it wont "void your warranty"

Whoever was discussing demand and economies of scale, do note that G-Force is posting this announcement on many different guns' owners forums ... they are probably looking at a fairly universal design, so even though the demand might not be huge for mag frames, that in itself is not a reason to assume these products will not make it to market.

That said, I'll believe it when I see it.

G-Force is posting daily replies on the original thread that they created. Therefore, please stop posting here and bring your comments to the original thread.

The same as here.

https://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=219595