Retro Valve not rapid firing?

Hello,

I recently upgraded my old Minimag to a Retro Valve, and was hoping to get a little more action from it than I'm getting. It definitely fires faster but I was hopping to get it to rapid fire. I bought a Ninja SHP regulator that is putting out 1100-1200psi and adjusted the sear so thats it sits just behind the trigger. The On/Off is the standard RT not the ULT, is that what's needed? What else do I need to do? Here's my Mag...

Thanks in advance,

Kevin

<a href="http://s942.photobucket.com/albums/ad262/kafletcher81/?action=view&amp;current=0823121609.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad262/kafletcher81/0823121609.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Pull your trigger slowly until you find the sweet spot where the mag will go nuts RTing.

I've done that and it just wont bounce. I have also noticed it half stroking from times, and I thought the upgraded pressure would make that impossible.

Apply pressure at the top of the triigger not at the bottom.

I've felt up the trigger more than a drunken prom date, and she ain't firing. Would an old O ring in the on/off cause it not to rapid fire.

Have you checked your velocity? A lower front chamber pressure (lower velocity) will help with reactivity. Are you using a level 10 bolt. If you are, then a shorter, lighter bolt spring will help make it more reactive. Also, try putting a shim or two in between the on-off halves. It will push the top oring up a bit higher which will reduce the distance the sear needs to travel to close off the air supply and release the bolt.

Haven't checked the velocity yet I don't have a chronograph. No level 10 yet, but planning on it soon. I just have a foamy level 7. I'll get to the hardware store soon and try the shims out. Any other suggestions are welcome.

When my x-valve has trouble rapid firing i will go into the power tube and put oil on the oring in there. Then drop oil in the elbow like normal and that salves prob every time. Make sure its a good quality oil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kfletch

Haven't checked the velocity yet I don't have a chronograph. No level 10 yet, but planning on it soon. I just have a foamy level 7. I'll get to the hardware store soon and try the shims out. Any other suggestions are welcome.

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The shims AThomas is talking about are only for ULT on/offs which you said you do not have. If you are still getting bolt stick, this will effect your RT. You need to change the Level 7 spacers. You also need to get to a chrono to determine your FPS. You can get the spacers either from the AGD online store or from Tunamart. This needs to be fixed before you can really proceed.

I was referring to adding shims to the standard retro on-off. You can put ULT shims in between the two on-off halves. It will push the top part farther into the valve which is the same as using a shorter pin. You can only use a couple of shims here or it will squeeze the top oring and make it too tight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by athomas

I was referring to adding shims to the standard retro on-off. You can put ULT shims in between the two on-off halves. It will push the top part farther into the valve which is the same as using a shorter pin. You can only use a couple of shims here or it will squeeze the top oring and make it too tight.

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I apologize and stand corrected. I had never heard of doing this before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kfletch

Haven't checked the velocity yet I don't have a chronograph. No level 10 yet, but planning on it soon. I just have a foamy level 7. I'll get to the hardware store soon and try the shims out. Any other suggestions are welcome.

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one of the first steps in installing a new xvalve is cranking the velocity. I set my in put pressure around 900 psi.

I also have the same issue whit the same setting RT retro valve on a minimag same color too!! (like color would change something... loll )

unable to sweet spot making the trigger bounce, when I tried to do it it shoot half power 2 paint balls I'm guessing half stroke , double feed then fires 2 simultaneously

///so the bolt doesn't go all the way? not enough air and/or spring too strong ?///

If something works please post it so I can have an idea of what to do to make it bizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ! I saw one on youtube ripin saying he just sanded on/off pin... I don't know before doing something irreversible ....

jh

Basicly what you need to do. Don't shave it down more then .710 or you can buy yourself a HP reg that pushes 1k +. If you have a lvl 10, install the gold spring. It'll be harder on paint but RT a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Ando

Basicly what you need to do. Don't shave it down more then .710 or you can buy yourself a HP reg that pushes 1k +. If you have a lvl 10, install the gold spring. It'll be harder on paint but RT a lot better.

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yeah already have 1100 psi pressure from a flatline that might need something (see my tread in tech forum ) and no lvl10 yet so I'l sand this down a bit and see what happens

thanks

jh

You ain't going to scratch that pin with sand paper. Demel it, go down .010 at a time till you get the results your looking for. IF you go too far with that pin you're going to end up buying a new one. Get your tank fixed before you screw that pin up. I put mine all around .725 to .735. Thats my prefer length

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ando

You ain't going to scratch that pin with sand paper. Demel it, go down .010 at a time till you get the results your looking for. IF you go too far with that pin you're going to end up buying a new one. Get your tank fixed before you screw that pin up. I put mine all around .725 to .735. Thats my prefer length

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Alright so I shave it a litle bit the on/off pin and when I shoot air is coming from the bolt witch doesn't cycle, should I readjust sear so it pushes the pin further now that she is shorter to make the rest of the bolt cycle ?

thanks

jh

loosen or tight your thumb and frame screws...sometimes one or both is either too loose or too tight...have you gone thru your entire valve, cleaned and checked all the o-rings?

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Originally Posted by need4reebs

loosen or tight your thumb and frame screws...sometimes one or both is either too loose or too tight...have you gone thru your entire valve, cleaned and checked all the o-rings?

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yes it worked! I lube and tighten everything and it's now sharper shooting. to those who want to shave their pin I suggest using a spark plug spacer measure tool, mine had a size 0.045 thickness witch was perfect to measure what had to be shave.

I am now trying to reduce trigger travel to a minimum and finally when my air runs out maintenance my flatline 3000 hopping it will recharge faster and stop is mini leak at 1100psi so I can crank it up to 1200.

hopping this tread will become usefull to some one

BTW are the on/off pins made whit the same material (stainless steel) or is there some aluminum or other ?

jh

Put a quad oring in the top of the on off and shorten the pin to .710-.720 This was the best RT combination I learned from the king of speed when it comes to regular play at 17-20 bps.

And the on off pin is a much harder material.

:cheers:

Pins are made out of SS.

As for your flatline, like the mag, they do vent out when the pressure is set too high. It verywell could be your gaug being inaccurate and is putting out more then what it's showing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ando

Pins are made out of SS.

As for your flatline, like the mag, they do vent out when the pressure is set too high. It verywell could be your gaug being inaccurate and is putting out more then what it's showing.

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I totally agree whit you, I maintenance it and found everything in order, it's either the gauge showing less than the actual pressure or the seat o ring that might be a little bit deformed ? anyway I found out AGD flatline security air hole just beneath this seat o ring and this hole is microscopic I mean it's obvious it's not there to make something work whit airflow.

So in point form: you want RT effect whit your RT retro valve

you need : dremel, spark plug measuring tool, metal ruler (more precise) and patience (space to take out is less or equal to 1 millimeter space between the lines of a ruler ( black line not included or maybe one of them)

1-mesure your on/off pin to 3/4 of an inche ( 0.750 ) to make sure it's not already shaved.
2-dremel it LITTLE AT THE TIME and verified whit spark plug measuring tool.

I notice at high pressure 1100 psi the trigger is crisp and can RT too
I notice as the pressure goes under 1000 psi the trigger becomes much more RT ing but bolt cycle a little bit slower, so if you don't have HP 1000 + psi reg you might want to shave it less than 0.040

I'm gonna tried to figure out the quad o ring in the bottom of the on/off chamber and tell you what it did.

jh

you can also buy different size on/off pins from tunamart or AGD

shaving the pin down can create a rough edge on the on/off pin that can nick or damage the little o-ring inside the on/off which can cause leaks or performance issues?

You can add a shim or two between the on-off halves to create the same effect as shaving the pin. Its a quick and easy way to test a shorter pin configuration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by athomas

You can add a shim or two between the on-off halves to create the same effect as shaving the pin. Its a quick and easy way to test a shorter pin configuration.

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very true! :headbang:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by need4reebs

you can also buy different size on/off pins from tunamart or AGD

shaving the pin down can create a rough edge on the on/off pin that can nick or damage the little o-ring inside the on/off which can cause leaks or performance issues?

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not 100% sure but from the look of it the only time that shave edge is passing true is o ring friend is when you disassemble and from the quality of the SS i'm pretty confident it cuts flush without creating ''still attached saw teeth shrapnel''

I preferred starting up whit the shave pin because it give it a little more lightness and I'm pretty sure the extra o ring down the on/off chamber will not only reduce traveling but will also make it bounce thus reloading faster than stock bouncing against SS .......... and improve RT :)

jh

I've never liked shaving the on/off pin, or shimming it to achieve the RT effect. Ideally the valve should do it without modifying the gun from factory specs through air input pressure alone. Thats what is was designed to do in the first place. I know Zac Vetter's not a big fan of shaving/shimming either and he knows his RT stuff. Unfortunately these things are all man made and all seem to have a personality of their own. Some are are just plain stubborn!

I gess you gotta do what yah gotta do. :shooting:

I have a Retro Valve in my Minimag that will RT in burst fire off just 850psi from a preset tank and a single trigger frame, then goes ape at over 950+. One of my Classic RT's is very sedate at 850psi from the same tank and a double trigger frame, and I'm betting it will take over 1100psi to really get it going, if at all. Of course, both are internally almost exactly the same, so go figure.

Trying to figure this crap out, thats the fun of mags I guess! :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr.Jhon

I preferred starting up whit the shave pin because it give it a little more lightness and I'm pretty sure the extra o ring down the on/off chamber will not only reduce traveling but will also make it bounce thus reloading faster than stock bouncing against SS .......... and improve RT :)

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Shaving the pin won't make it any lighter, but will shorten the distance between when the on-off closes and the sear releases the bolt. This enhances the RT effect because it takes less overall movement going from fully on and able to recharge to fully off and releasing the bolt and back again.

There is no extra oring down the on-off chamber. The quad oring you use replaces the normal urethane oring. It is softer and has reduced friction which enhances the RT effect.

If you do shave the pin, make sure it remains long enough to allow the sear to catch the bolt lip with enough metal before the the on-off opens to start the recharge. If the on-off opens too soon, the outside edge of the bolt lip catches the sear tip at its point and can damage the bolt lip as well as the sear.

Sorry it has taken so long for me to post my results, had to get the parts needed and playing time with them to draw a complete conclusion. I started with a:

Retro Valve
RT On/Off
.750 Stock Pin w/ standard O ring
ANS Venturi Bolt
Stock Gold Spring
1100psi Ninja SHP Regulator
280-290fps
Halo B v35 board

No RT effect with this setup, though the trigger was much lighter than the Classic Mag. Would chop a lot when firing fast. 1. So the first thing I changed was the bolt, got a Level 10. I tuned it with one of the middle carriers, 2 shims. Bolt came far enough to hurt my finger somewhat when tested, 1 ball break out of 200 rounds. And it now had the RT effect! Ball breakage still unacceptable. 2. Tuned the level 10 with a tighter carrier, 4 shims. Lost the RT effect but no ball breaks. 3. Changed out the stock .750 on/off pin for the .712 E Mag pin I purchased from Tuna along with a Quad O ring. RT effect is back, 1 ball break out of 500 rounds. Added a fifth shim and so far no ball breakage. New setup:

Retro Valve
RT On/Off
.712 Pin w/ Quad O ring
Level 10 Bolt w/ Smallest Carrier w/ 5 Shims
Stock Gold Spring
1100psi Ninja SHP Regulator
280-290fps
Halo B v35 board

I can shoot 1 round bust with the bottom of the trigger, 3 round bust with the center, and full auto by using the top of the trigger. This Mag shoots like a dream! I've been playing for 20 years (31 years old) and I'm so happy I never had to give up on my Mag, just a few upgrades here and there have kept me in the game. Thank you forum friends and thank you AGD!

Look into trigger stops. Lukes does the milling and it's very reasonable.

You don't need that many shims bro (none usually) and you want the largest carrier in there that doesn't leak so go back up to the last one you had in there. Keep going till you get a barrel leak then go back down one. Only reason you'd need to put shims in is if the lvl 10 isn't resetting after it's been tripped. Too many shims will cause a leak. If you want the bolt to be easier on paint, go with one of the longer bolt springs. You'll have to adj the pressure up some more when you change out the spring to get it to fire again FYI.

I echo what Ando said. For optimum performance always use the largest carrier that doesn't produce a leak without any shims installed. Are you using level 10 shims or ULT shims? I'm actually surprised that your setup doesn't leak with 5 shims installed so I am assuming they are thinner ULT shims and not the thicker level 10 shims.

When testing the effectiveness of the level 10 with your finger, make sure you hold it against the bolt face. If you hold it more than 1/4" from the bolt face, the bolt will hit with full, level 7 force and it could hurt.

Changing to a longer stiffer bolt spring makes the level 10 softer on paint. You should be using the bolt spring that allows you to shoot at a velocity that is about 20fps above the lowest velocity that the gun will shoot using the same bolt spring.

Are you getting chops or barrel breaks. Check the inside diameter (id) of your barrel and also the balls at their seams. You should be using a barrel id that just touches the balls on two sides opposite each other at the seams. If the balls are brittle and the barrel id is too tight, then you can have random breaks when shooting. A level 10 bolt won't help with that.

Fine tuning
For most people the setup outlined above will make every paintball day a great experience. For those looking to get maximum anti chop with fragile tourney paint we offer the following suggestions. The O-ring friction can be used to additionally slow the bolt down. By going to the next smaller carrier you add an additional layer of protection at the expense of risking bolt stick. You must keep your marker oiled daily to keep it working reliably. The long mainspring can be trimmed to further fine tune the performance. The best performance comes when the marker just starts firing at 270 fps and works reliably at 290 fps.

The penalty for over tuning is the fact that the marker may occasionally refuse to fire. This is because the main spring combined with the power tub O-ring has too much sticktion to let the bolt go forward. Try at your own risk.

That’s it! Your new Level 10 marker is ready to go!!

....That's right out of the directions. They suggest more friction from the carrier and less from the spring. All in all I think we're talking the same thing, weather its (less friction from the carrier more resistance from the spring) or (more friction from the carrier less from the spring). Not sure about the shimes, they are the ones Tuna provided me in the level 10 kit. But in the directions it states they control when the pressure vents from the bolt, and if you keep adding them it will eventually leak all the time. I've got 5 and still no air leak. But I'll try all suggestions in the morning and post my results. Thanks!

Those directions were proven to be partially incorrect a long time ago.

The friction of the oring is greater before it starts moving than when it is moving. It is also greater after it sits for a while than if it moves more frequently. The inconsistency of the changing friction makes it difficult to accurately adjust the level 10 so that it shoots reliably. By using the largest carrier that does not leak, you remove the inconsistency so that you are relying solely on force differential between the chamber pressure and the bolt spring.

The shims do change the distance that bolt needs to move before it can vent air. The fact is, that if the bolt moves at all, it always moves far enough to vent air. There are some rare exceptions if aftermarket parts are used. But then the shims will allow it to be corrected. If the bolt fires, chuffs, or vents air in any way during a shot, then shims will not correct the problem. It may be a temporary bandaid, but the real problem would still exist and eventually happen again, usually at the most inappropriate time. Sometimes too many shims cause leaking that is masked by using a carrier that is too tight. This occurs when you squeeze the carrier tight against the edge of the vent hole and it seals the air passage when it normally would leak if the carrier was the correct size.

The bottom line at all times, is to use the largest carrier that does not produce a leak when using no shims. Adjust the force on the bolt by changing springs. If you want to fine tune this, use a stiffer spring than you really need and start clipping coils off of one end until you reach the force you need. Only clip one end and use the cut end against the bolt. If you want to install shims after that, then go ahead, but you really don't need them if everything is properly tuned.

You are absolutely correct. I think this setup is gonna give me more consistency over the long haul. Took me a while to dial in the velocity with the new longer spring. No breaks as of yet.

Retro Valve
RT On/Off
.712 Pin w/ Quad O ring
Level 10 Bolt w/ #3 carrier (1 tightest 6 loosest)
Red Bolt Spring
1100psi Ninja SHP Regulator
280-290fps
Halo B v35 board