I just wandered what people thought about boltless markers ie the Epic. I see advantages and disadvantages. What do all of you think about them??
Thanks
Hitmanng
------------------
"I would rather hit once than miss 140 times."
Printable View
I just wandered what people thought about boltless markers ie the Epic. I see advantages and disadvantages. What do all of you think about them??
Thanks
Hitmanng
------------------
"I would rather hit once than miss 140 times."
Lots to think about here... I think the current designs available are a fad. I don't see any advantages that really outweigh the disadvantages.
Ok starting with the epic. The trapdoor has to have a thickness which is above the breech diameter (i.e. the top of the ball where it sits) as compared to a bolt being the same diameter as the ball... This means any ball falling in starts from higher up (by the diameter of the trap door) this won't help feeding. but what may be worse is the effect as talked about in FC where the bolt comes forwards and bobbles balls up the tube. With the Epic the second ball will be stacked on the first, the trap door has to go between the two and so is forcing the second ball and the whole stack above it up the feed tube... possibly not a good thing.
With things like the nova... well I don't see any advantage to having a large reciprocating mass instead of a small one... moving a larger mass will take more energy and it has more momentum to impart on a ball were it to only part feed... *chop*
What do you as a customer see as the advantages to these systems?
manike
I must agree the 2 boltless markers on the market have issues but what about the idea. I like no bolt. No large moving part as it were. Just a puff (big puff) of air. It seem easier on the balls and almost chop resistant. I am not even sure why I like since I have neither of these issues very often with a bolt it just appeals.
Hitmanng
------------------
"I would rather hit once than miss 140 times."
i like the idea of no bolt too, but it is only a fad. take the epic. it is a great idea but the problem with the trap door is that it can't cycle very fast. i read somewhere that 6bps was its maximum cycling rate. the nova was a great gun too. it was easy to chop but that was fixed by the nova ET (electronic trigger)
Where can one learn more about this Epic marker you all talk about?
------------------
Intricate are you among the masses.... PAX217
anybody have a link to a picture or article about one of these?
------------------
retro mini
And shepherds we shall be
For thee My Lord for thee
Power hath descended forth from thy hand
That our feet may swiftly carry out thy command
So we shall flow a river forth to thee
And teeming with souls shall it ever be
In nomine patre, at file, spiritus sancte.
- MacManus Family Prayer
beam: check out the review in this months APG, it's the usual love-fest, but there's some good info in it. Personally I think boltless markers, as currently seen, are a fad. just look at the performance difference between the matrix and the epic, which both use the same valve design, the matrix using a bolt, and the epic using a trap-door. The bolt design is higher performing right now. The other problem being that the makers of the boltless designs have designed non-upgradeable markers, look at the epic, with the integrated bottom-line, no drop-forwards, aftermarket regs and all the other fun things that people expect to be able to add to a marker in that price-range.
------------------
Mykroft Holmes IV
------------------
My Mags:
CF11023, Classic Feed, 16" CP .689, 14" JnJ Stainless, Ring trigger, WGP Reg, Diamond Labs Ti Reg Adjuster.
VV00614(Valve)/VV00423(reg), Black Teflon HR Powerfeed, 16" SP AA, Benchy 1x Chrome, Benchy Crossfire cradle/on-off, black foregrip, Macroline.
PMI 48/3K Preset HPA
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" R.A.Heinlein - 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'
The web page is here for the Epic:
http://www.icepaintball.com/
Hitmanng
------------------
"I would rather hit once than miss 140 times."
actually its a good idea, you could prob get more rof with out a bolt having to recock and fire, less ball breakage too. its a good idea, but it probably needs to be perfected, prbably a gas hog too lol
------------------
"AND THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT." Forest Gump
"to have the edge is not to have the technology, but the experience"
automag classic s\f with polished boddy & 12 in j&j brass barrel, kapp forgrip & dz2 drop forward. www.geocities.com/automagkid1
[This message has been edited by automagkid (edited 07-21-2001).]
automagkid: You need to replace the bolt with something that closes the breech, in order for the air to push the ball in the correct direction with consistent energy. The two solutions for this that have come up, ie: the Epic's trap door and the Nova's articulated barrel, are inherently slower than a bolt, as they both must move more mass than it takes to simply move a light bolt.
------------------
Mykroft Holmes IV
------------------
My Mags:
CF11023, Classic Feed, 16" CP .689, 14" JnJ Stainless, Ring trigger, WGP Reg, Diamond Labs Ti Reg Adjuster.
VV00614(Valve)/VV00423(reg), Black Teflon HR Powerfeed, 16" SP AA, Benchy 1x Chrome, Benchy Crossfire cradle/on-off, black foregrip, Macroline.
PMI 48/3K Preset HPA
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" R.A.Heinlein - 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'
in a way, the EPIC is like a cocker... The cocker never hits the ball (closed bolt) and neither does the epic, andthe epic has somewhat of a bolt (7 hole airflow)
i see a big disadvantage in the epic. the style of drop forward you have to have. at least that is a disadvantage for me, i dont like them.
ok but think of this barely any moving parts plut it takes cocker barrels. with no moving parts its gonna have better accuracy. it has alittle lower bps but so do regular mags. if you remember fron the tape tom said that the fastest trigger finger he ever saw (yes i know the tape if from 1991) was sandmans. he said that sandman could squeese out 9 bps. in the tae he olny did 7. so the gun baisivcally is a much more stable sniper gun. it is easy to fet a good shot with. my teemate has one and i love it. it is so light and it dosnt move what so ever!. its a great gun. i just think you guys need to try one before you all say that it is just a fad.
------------------
automag:(verb)1to eliminate from a paintball game, 2to be better than a spray and prey player with a cocker or angel, 3to kick some major arse
the gun may be great but we are commenting on bolt vs no-bolt. Isn't the whole "fewer moving parts give you better accuracy" a myth? Wasn't that just the advertising capmaign they used to sell pump guns?
------------------
Taking mags apart is fun, its even more fun when you don't know what you're doing
Ohh yeah and Tunaman sorry for all the stress and all the things I've broken.
*If corn oil is made of corn, what is baby oil made of?*
I have a crazy idea. put the gas source, like in the warp and have gas blow the ball through the warp and out the barrel or something.
I told you it was crazy https://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif
x-plosive it is true though. your gun is not moving hwen you shoot. when you pull the triger there isnt a bolt that flies forewards to make you move. the epic justs lets the ball float out without any problem. i know i am more accurate with my friends epic than i am with my mag or my otner friends bushy. they do make a difference. plus theres no worry of bolt stick or chopped balls or bolt/ sear chipping
------------------
automag:(verb)1to eliminate from a paintball game, 2to be better than a spray and prey player with a cocker or angel, 3to kick some major arse
wow! I don't think many people can be any more accurate then i am with my mag when i have a semi good paint/barrel match. Next time I go to the field I'll measure the chot groupings at 30 yds for you.
------------------
Taking mags apart is fun, its even more fun when you don't know what you're doing
Ohh yeah and Tunaman sorry for all the stress and all the things I've broken.
*If corn oil is made of corn, what is baby oil made of?*
guy the max ROF of the epic is 9bps not 6.
still a little low but not to bad.
i want to get one in the futer
------------------
in the biggining god created two gun and he said thuo automag shall be for the just and fair and the autococker for the evil and cheaters.
I know this is an old thread but some of the posts are making me mad. Heres the truth about what all u guys r sayin:
"less moving parts means more accuracy" - not really more accuracy, it just doesnt kick so u can keep the gun more stabalized.
"max rof is 6bps" - 9bs, and they are making an electro version
"less ball chops" - NO ball chops at all
"no drop forwards" - You can stick a drop forward on them, but you have to have a bottomline kit that can screw into an asa.
"no regulators" - see my above thought. Also, the whole thing is pretty much a big reg!
You guys say you don't like it... What's the one thing that makes a paintball innacurate? Paint in the barrel, chopped ball, velocity spikes; NO chops, and this is a very consistant gun.
I know that this is an old post and I apoligize, but my biggest pet peeve is when somebody says something about this gun thats bad.
I wanted one before I got my mag, but I couldn't find any prices. So I got my mag then found out it was 700 or something, lil much.
Current boltless guns suck buddies.
Lets take 2 guns Epic and Intimidator
Boltless = no chopping
Anti Chop eye = no chopping
both cocker threading
Epics run at.........what pressure now?
Intimidators run at 220psi, 180 or less with a LP mod
Intimidators come w/ free fade ano and a great 2 piece barrel, Epics come with a $50 CP barrel
Epics - no LCD screen
Ok, that shows that the intimidator is thus far , superior.
Guess what the back breaker is? The timmy can do 50% faster ROF, and can do even more with a new chip. Epics cant do that, they are limited severely.
Hmmm, boltless , or bolt? Get the best you can for the cash....Thats what I did, I own a Mag :)
Hey we've been workin' with bolt markers for how long? and we've been able to make due, right?
well, as I like to say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
We'd still have 10 ball tubes with that thinking.
I spoke to one of team Grizwald last year about the Epic. This was after they used them in tourney in CA. I believe they did pretty well.
They only complaint at that time was about the trigger. Otherwise... a pretty good marker.
Non-bolt markers could be the future... I could envision a rotating (vertical turnstile) breech loader with resistance monitoring as an anti-chop feature. Or maybe utilizing the advanced pneumatics of this imaginary marker, it would load by sucking or pushing the ball into firing position. This has gotten me thinking...
Who knows... It could be fun to build one.
Scorch
Not the wave of the future, the wave of the past.
Presently, there are no boltless paintguns I would describe as "sucessfull" (not in terms of functionality, but in terms of appreciable market share).
Compare this to the late 1980s and the success of the Tippmann SMG-60 and SMG-68, and it would be better to say that boltless was a trend of the past, not the future.
As for the Nova and Epic designs, both shoot well, despite being unconventional, but being that "different" can hamper success in the marketplace.
See you on the field,
-Bill Mills
Crap, now I'm even argueing with Bill Mills, lol
The rof can be changed, theyre making an electro version. You can also get a trigger job.
Anti-chop eyes, more money, more trouble, something else that can break.
Well, what I MEANT by that was that Plenty of people are just happy with bolt markers, and are perfectly capable of High rates of fire. Just look @ all the electronic guns out on the market today.Quote:
Originally posted by Scorch
We'd still have 10 ball tubes with that thinking.
People weren't happy with 10 ball tubes. So they changed it. It was "broken" so to speak :)
If a epic breaks , who's gonna fix it ?
I know the manufacturer probabally says its not gonna break due to low ammount of parts........but then then airstar said the same thing and alot of people have broken novas.
Why don't you fix it yourself? Not like its hard to take apart, I had it memorized once and I don't have one. If a part in it breaks you can probably call up ICE and ask em for another one just like you can almost any gun.
Also, if you are wandering how good it will hold up if you bang it up on the ground, a talked to a guy who had his bead blasted and he took a hammer to his and it didn't scratch it.
There are many possibilities for bolt-less systems. There could be a rear-fed jet system, where a warp feed - style system pushes a ball past a series of circular air jets (like in a whirlpool) and out the barrel. cool, yet gas-hoggish (i guess). this would allow for very, very compact guns, much like the size of a minimag, without a PF or feed on top the gun.
Also, i oculd see double tubed blowforwards bases on mags, putting the regulator/on-off valve system on the bottm, bolt on top. this would, if approached correctly, could cut the size of a mag nearly in half.
I never figured out why people don't do like the epics did and put the reg inside the grip frame, it saves a lot of space.