Does lvl 10 make my Emag obsolete??

I know how that sounds but hear me out and let me know what you think.

I switched from a Dark Angel to an Emag for a couple of reasons. First off I have always been impressed with the innovativeness of AGD (6-pack, powefeed, retro valve, warp etc.). I’ve also been impressed by their quality and customer service. Now this being said, in the past I just didn’t seem able to get paint out the barrel of a mag in one piece consistently. I’ve learned a lot since then. For instance I used to use a standard mag with a VL200. It’s no wonder I was a blender during fast bursts! However when the Emag came out (and I learned more about rate of fire, feed rates and the benefits of a agitated hopper) I realized I could set in on electric or hybrid modes and not have to worry about my trigger pull. I bought an emag and have been very happy since. I do break paint every now and then, but not unduly so. Now with the lvl 10 I can shoot any mag without breaking. I happen to have a retro mag with warp as a back up, but now I’m wondering will it be as good as the emag? Sure the emag has e-mode, but I like it in hybrid.

Can a retro mag shoot as fast as an emag in hybrid?

Is my Emag now obsolete?

Douglas

Maybe this is obvious, but why not get a level 10 kit for your emag and have the best of both worlds?

No your emag is not obsolete. Lvl 10 was no to stop short-stroke breaks rather misfeeds and stuff. It also makes the bolt genlter on paint. If you arn;t having any problems with you Emag you don't really need lvl 10. I got it on my mag because i chop acouple bals a day mostly from user error, lvl 10 stops many of them. THe Emag wasn't a solution for shortstroking either, more of a plus. The emag is all about the e trigger. A rt is just as fast as manual mode on a emag, but i havent shot in hybrid so i can;t comment there.

Oblolete? No way.

Level 10 makes your emag better than ever. Not only does it prevent chops from out running your loader it reduces the kick, reduces breaks down the barrel, and it even seems to make the gun more consistant.

It's like having a whole new gun.

Level 10 emag = one mean paint shootin machine :D

i put lvl 10's in both my minimag and my emag both worked like a charm but the lvl 10 gave me 1 major problem on my emag. i can never use it, everytime i take it out someone else wants to use it so i let em.but the emag with lvl 10 is still a hella lot better than the minimag .

Heavens no...there is still "the trigger"! :D

In the essance of

I bought an emag to stop the user related paint breaks...

Or

I bought an emag so I can limit my rate of fire so I dont outshoot my hopper

Yes it has. in the sense of

I bought an emag so I could have the most outstanding paintball gun in rate of fire, consistancy, and durability and technology

No it hasnt :-), it just adds another to that list, easy on paint...

-Booyah

Quote:

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Originally posted by Dragoon

Can a retro mag shoot as fast as an emag in hybrid?

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NO *EDIT* Three day ban for blatantly circumventing the filters. Doom on you. Army way. the hybrid is a BEAST. there is NO way any gun cna keep up in hybrid. dude.....the E-mag is great and I dont think it needs lvl 10 personally(but thats just me) just put on a 12v warp w/ interlink and you dont HAVE to worry bout breakin paint.

Is it just me or is there anyone else out there who can't for fast in hybrid mode to save their life. This doesn't include runaway as I can "runaway" it with the best of them.

RT_Luver, bypassing the filters is a no no. I did it with the S word and I got a 3 day ban. I suggest you remove that from your post.

what is Hybrid mode it has been puzzling my for quite some time now

It has the smooth electronic pull (fires the gun with the electronically) then it kicks the trigger mechanically back like an RT.

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Originally posted by cphilip
Heavens no...there is still "the trigger"! :D

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Good point cphilip. The triggers are definitly different :D

But as I pointed out I got the Emag mainly to stop the breaking problem I had with my first mag. I really wanted to use AGD products and I figured the Emag allowed me to do this. Now that I can make a retro mag not chop regardless of how I pull the trigger that advantage is removed from the emag (just as a note, I'm awaiting 2 lvl 10 kits, one for my emag and one for my retro mag).

So how about rate of fire. Which one is greater? Remember that I don't use e-mode, I prefer hybrid.

Douglas

level 10 just helps take the e-mag to the next 'level' in my opinion.

Hybrid mode on the e-mag in conjunction with level 10 (and ACE in some cases) is just amazingly fast.

I have my gun in hybrid and I pull the trigger lightly enough that it fires electronically but would not go onto fire mechanically. With the ACE this gives you the rapid firing with the protection of level 10 and ACE. It's amazing.

I think level 10 just enhances the e-mag. The ability to lay on the trigger in e-mode or hybrid and not worry about breaking paint is pure luxury :)

There is no way I can shoot my RT or C&C in manual as fast as I can in e-mode or hybrid. And the great thing about e-mode is that it's veryeasy to use left handed or in tight and awkward spots.

manike

Level 10? I'm proud to say I won't be investing in a Level 10 kit. 24 cases of paint through my superbolt and I haven't had ANY problems. No chops, or barrel breaks and I have been shooting inferno lately which gets like a 1-2 on the bounce test. I'm so proud of my superbolt :) Will the level 10 slow down the rate the gun cycles at? I imagine so, I don't see how it couldn't.

Good points Manike,

I asked this question not because I'm thinking of mothballing my Emag but to take another look at what's now available. I think that lvl 10 is a revolutionary step for the Mag. I think it changes mags placement within the marker spectrum.

Not just new mags either. The truly stunning part about lvl 10 is it's retro-fittable to all the mags already produced and in circulation.

Like I mentioned in the post on Paintball nation about W.A.S. I think the mag has become a much better option for feild rentals. With lvl 10 it's so easy on paint that feild owners you can offer cheaper previously unshootable paint. As a player I'm not sure I'd like this, but to a feild owner it's very appealing.

I remember talking to a good friend (who also happens to own a couple of paintball feilds) a couple of years back about the 6-pak. He pointed out how amazing it was at the time, but that it brought about it's own downfall. Back when tournaments were trying to hold onto the rule of only allowing 12 grams and no CA the 6 pack became the ultimate in 12 gram quick change. It was so fast it blurred the line between 12 gram play and CA play. This eventually lead to CA being allowed in tournaments because there was so little difference between the sources of air (at that point that they relented to growing CA trend). Now this may or may not be true. As far as I know it's just speculation on his part. But it certainly fits. And even if it's absolutly wrong, it raises some good questions.

So armed with the idea that the 6-pak made it's self obsolete, and thinking about the lvl 10 and my reasons for buying the Emag.... You can kind of see where I was going. I think the lvl 10 mod will have more of an impact on mags and AGD than any other single development since the 6-pak and retro valve.

A mechanical anti-chop device. Wow! Truly revolutionary.

Anyone have any thoughts on my spewing?

Douglas.

PS This is not blind devotion to AGD on my part. I beleive in function over form. In the case of lvl 10 I don't think it can be promoted too much.

I can kinda see what you are trying to get at, but I have to say I don't agree. The EMag offers features above and beyond the RT or Automag. Now across the board we have an additional feature. The emag has never handled paint any differently than an RT. There was a limited ACE deployment. I see four levels or product, with some different offerings within each level (prob a bad word for it, can't think of anything else)

Automag (also Minimag)
RT (Pro/classic)
EMag (SS Body)
Extreme EMag (C&C, SFL, non milled)

At each level you get a whole new set of features. Level 10 compatibility is across the board.

Agreed Hexis,

But I think the gaps between the markers have been narrowed by lvl 10. I think all the markers would now be better, but the improvement is more substantial at the lower (mag & minimag) levels.

Douglas

Yes, LX can be applied to all AGD markers…. However, I would like to point out that it was designed to take care of a problem that was mostly seen with their “higher end” markers.

I don’t see it as being an improvement that will hurt AGD in any way, aside from possibly reinforcing the MISCONCEPTION that ALL Mags chop, and if you don’t have this “upgrade” you will not have a “good” Mag, or that you will have a Mag that DOES chop paint…. Both of which are simply not true.

If I may….. as has been stated over and over on AO, many of us DON’T have the problem that the LX was intended to correct. Will then purchasing and installing the LX into a Marker that has never had a problem chopping HURT anything? Heck no. But in my opinion it is like wearing a raincoat every day in the desert “just in case it DOES rain” even if it has never done so.

It puts AGD in an odd position. You see, after years of claiming that Mags don’t chop paint any more than any other marker, and knowing that actually many of us STILL don’t chop paint, AGD seems to be marketing the “fear” of chopping paint. This is a catch 22 isn’t it? Is this saying AGD has LIED all these years? Or is it that they are now using the “perception” that Mags chop (although not accurate for all Mags) to sell its latest product to ALL Mag owners no matter the type of Mag they own, and instill the fear that they MIGHT chop without it, even if they never have? Just to increase sales?

Again, this may not be the case, but it sure looks that way to some of us. Personally I don’t like “fear tactic” sales. Even more so when I know I have nothing to be afraid of.

I would be elated to see AGD actually acknowledge the existence of their “non chopping” Mags. I would be delighted to see them remember that they make other markers besides the E-mag. I would be overjoyed seeing them actually promote the RT Pro which I have seldom to EVER seen anyone really complain about, but instead tout its reliability, speed, etc…. It baffles me that a company would seem to burry a product that gets such high reviews, is more affordable for the general public, and receives less negative feedback than almost any marker on the market… all for the sake of dooking it out with the other “high end” marker companies out there.

Do you think Kingmann, Tippman, or any other company that makes less expensive markers that may not be as “high end” as the E-Mag, Angel, etc. are crying because their marker is not “as good” as those holding the “top spot” in high end marker design? They all make good markers that will fit the need of the general public….. and they are laughing their way to the bank. I have seen too many people WANT something, but end up buying “the next best thing” because they simply could not afford anything more.

It is great to want to be the best, and to actually BE the best (and I am behind AGD all the way on this), but don’t forget you have a more affordable marker in your lineup, that blows away all the competition in both lesser price brackets AND most in higher price brackets as well…. Just to push your “latest” product or idea. I think this is a mistake, and is costing AGD a great deal of money.

Yes, LX is a fantastic product.. no doubt… but not needed for all Mags (unless you forget that AGD makes more than JUST E-Mags).

Quote:

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Originally posted by Dragoon
A mechanical anti-chop device. Wow! Truly revolutionary.

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Not quite that revolutionary. Cockers sold for years on the capability to fine tune the bolt force down to a level that they wouldn't chop. The e-Matrix did the same with the reg controlling the force pushing the bolt closed.

Shartley, I agree that level 10 isn't needed for all mags, and that it's rare for some mags to chop. The fact remains though that it was possible to chop with such mags if you were shooting at a bad angle or if your loader couldn't keep up. You had to take better care, with trigger technique and other factors to avoid chopping. Now you don't need to worry anywhere near as much.

I've quite happily run my RT with very dodgy hopper batteries, I would never have risked it before. My RT wouldn't chop with good batteries and loader and good trigger technique, but It would if any of those slipped. Now it just won't chop even when I try to force it. It was a good gun before but it's at another level now. Level 10.

Previously when I lent out my RT people would always end up breaking balls with it, even though I didn't. Now I lend it out and people shoot me with it ;) and don't break paint in it at all. And that includes new guys and people used to electro triggers.

manike

shartley you keep going on about the LX only solving a possible chopping problem. The inability of a correctly setup level 10 mag to chop is only one of it's strong points. The level 10 is also much more gentle on paint, reducing not only chops but breech breaks as well. For me this was a much stronger feature than the no chopping. Pre LX I only chopped when I short stroked. Not that it happened all that often, but when it did, I knew who was to blame (and it wasn't AGD). The bolt is also lighter, which is very nice if you got used to and liked the difference a superbolt made.

I don't see AGD saying how bad level 7/RT mags are. I see them touting how damn cool level 10 is. There is nothing wrong with that. So some users have taken the attitude that a mag is nothing without level 10. I can't say I totally agree with that. I can say that I think _everyone_ can benefit from a level 10 setup. Even the occasional breech break or chop is a major PITA. Making that all but impossible is a great thing.

Exactly the point of my original post guys.

I'm a bit of a lazy player. I let my hopper batteries get low, or short stroke my retro mag, or sometimes let it run away a little. So to help overcome my lazyness I bought an emag. If I was to have to make that decision again I think I would end up buying an RT Pro with LX. With LX it can handle my weaknesses well. I think the LX gives less expensive markers some of the advantages that that the high end markers use to call their own.

Hence the question of this post.

Douglas

Well put Hexis.

So to put out another clear question from what's been said:

What are the performace differences between a LX Emag and a LX RT Pro? Keep in mind I've tried to keep the comparison discussion based on using the Emag in hybrid mode.

The only difference I can think of is the magnetic trigger of the Emag. I think LX has removed the other advantages of the Emag over the RT Pro.

Douglas

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Originally posted by Hexis
shartly shartly you keep going on about the LX only solving a possible chopping problem. The inability of a correctly setup level 10 mag to chop is only one of it's strong points. The level 10 is also much more gentle on paint, reducing not only chops but breech breaks as well. For me this was a much stronger feature than the no chopping. Pre LX I only chopped when I short stroked. Not that it happened all that often, but when it did, I knew who was to blame (and it wasn't AGD). The bolt is also lighter, which is very nice if you got used to and liked the difference a superbolt made.

I don't see AGD saying how bad level 7/RT mags are. I see them touting how damn cool level 10 is. There is nothing wrong with that. So some users have taken the attitude that a mag is nothing without level 10. I can't say I totally agree with that. I can say that I think _everyone_ can benefit from a level 10 setup. Even the occasional breech break or chop is a major PITA. Making that all but impossible is a great thing.

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Agreed. I forgot to mention that the majorly reduced recoil of the level 10 is nice also.

I've now done way over 10 cases of paint in my level 10 guns. And not one single ball break in the breech or barrel. That includes many demo's where I have tried to force breaks!

I think the LX e-mag would always be faster than the LX RTPro in my hands :) I kind of have both (an electronic gun and a manual gun) and am way faster with the electro gun in hybrid mode.

manike

Thanks guys. Points taken.

And actually, you helped stick them home.. and what I was saying in much of my post.

As for me keeping on focusing on the chopping issue… well, let’s be honest can we? From day one THAT is what the major selling point has been for LX. Oh, and it also does XYZ. The LX was never “highlighted” as a weight reduction and recoil reduction upgrade (like the Super Bolt was). It was pushed as “gentle on paint”, “reduces and virtually eliminates chopping”, etc. Never once has Tom posted a video about how light it made his Mag. ;) So if the manufacturer chooses to focus on one aspect as its main reason for a product, it would only follow that it be the main focus when talking about it. :D

Oh… did I mention how great the RT Pro was/is? ;)

(shartlEy..shartlEy.. ;))
((Added: Oops, forgot to not post my sig again.. sorry guys. Taking it off. Also, you KNOW you all missed my long posts. ;)))

LX descriptions have from the start mentioned that is includes the Superbolt 2. You have to give that at least some credit as a mention of recoil reduction. It's a subtle feature at best, but one that some people really fell in love with on the superbolt. And the way it's implemented is far superior to the original superbolt's delrin.

While it’s true that the no-chop has been the most demonstrated feature, how do you really go about showing that a bolt is gentle on paint? Or that it reduces recoil for that matter? The vids of TK showing that it won’t chop paint can lead you to the gentle on paint. Other than that I’m not sure it’s possible to have an easy to understand demonstration of a LX’s other effects. The non-chopping is simply the most dramatic difference, and also the easiest to show off.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Hexis
LX descriptions have from the start mentioned that is includes the Superbolt 2. You have to give that at least some credit as a mention of recoil reduction. It's a subtle feature at best, but one that some people really fell in love with on the superbolt. And the way it's implemented is far superior to the original superbolt's delrin.

While it’s true that the no-chop has been the most demonstrated feature, how do you really go about showing that a bolt is gentle on paint? Or that it reduces recoil for that matter? The vids of TK showing that it won’t chop paint can lead you to the gentle on paint. Other than that I’m not sure it’s possible to have an easy to understand demonstration of a LX’s other effects. The non-chopping is simply the most dramatic difference, and also the easiest to show off.

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I was not arguing in any way shape or form WHY it was the most talked about feature… just that it was. ;) Thank you for backing that up. :D

I agree that the chopping issue has been promoted the most. True it is easy to demonstrate in a shocking maner that gets people talking about LX. This is also a major weapon to counter the prevailing attitude of non-mag users. Perhaps the marketing is not enough at the actual mag user. Mind you the marketing has been mainly shock marketing posted online up to this point.

I'm looking forward to getting LX in both my mags and giving them a try. Manike, I think it will probably be the same for me in that I'll be able to shoot the emag faster than the retro mag.

I've forgotten about the reduced recoil of the LX bolt. Thanks for reminding me guys. I have that much more to look forward to.

Douglas

Douglas the question that you should be asking yourself is, which marker do you prefer to play with? Do you prefer you're Retro or the E-Mag? I don't think that you will ever get a satisifying answer to your orginal question. Is the E-Mag obsolete? Not in my opinion. Do you think it is? Now personally I would be happy to give your E-Mag a good home but I know that you are a collector of paintball markers and it's doubtfull that you would give up the E-Mag. Your's was the first E-Mag that I had the pleasure or trying out and I personally don't think that you should give it up. Something that you might consider doing is setuping up both your Retro and E-Mag for different uses. At the indoor field I frequent the ceiling is 250fps, but for tournements it's usely 280fps. Personally I would set the E-mag up for 280 and the retro for 250. That way you don't have to take the time to set it up for the right speed before you play each time.

:D
Ya Temo I'll probably end up doing something like that. But I may end having to sell the Emag to raise funds for the C&C Extreme. I focus on function for my markers, but a little extra form is always appreciated ;)

Douglas

Guys,
As I'm reading through the posts, people keep talking about "marketing the Lvl 10 to mag users". I don't think that was really what they intended at all. AGD knows that it has a loyal following, and that most of you are some sort of tech/gadget freak (don't worry, I'm included in that group) that would buy the Lvl 10 or the super shiny on/off button, or whatever else they put out, because you guys love your guns, and you enjoy upgrading them. And you know that AGD always puts out quality products and they back them up.
However, AGD's presence has kind of dropped off in the market place the last couple of years, for whatever reasons. I'm sure Tom does this because he loves what he does, so it's the perfect job for him. And if he wants to continue doing what he loves and keep his employee's employed, they need to sell guns.
Now the one reason people said they didn't like mags has been removed...what's to keep them from buying AGD again. They could by an RT with a lvl 10 upgrade and get near electro performance and not break paint! At 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of an Angel!
I think it's a great way for AGD to reclaim some of the market it once held. I remember when pretty much everyone who had a "high end" gun, either had a mag or a cocker.
I've always recommended mags to new players for ease of maintenance, reliability, and customer service. Now I can add to that, "And you probably won't break paint again!"
Just some thoughts,

sarge