EMAG still has pressure after removing air line - RESOLVED

Hope you EMag wizards can help. I have a Automag classic body/rail with an old Emag valve. I just aired it up and it shot fine. Removed air and could not remove the valve because the On/Off pin was sticking out and the trigger had pressure. Pulling the trigger and pushing the bolt back did not relieve any pressure. I tool off the rail and used a screwdriver to push the pin in and slide the valve back and of course the On/Off assembly popped off. I found the on/off assembly and pin but no orings that go on top of the assembly. Please help me with these two questions:

1) Why does the pressure remain in the valve after air is removed?
2) What belongs on top of the on/off assembly? I tried a little white Oring (from a classic valve repar kit) that fit around the top of the pin and in the circle groove in the valve but the pin did not slide enough and was not shooting properly. I have heard some mention a quad oring. I could not find a diagram of the Emag valve... just the RT and it just looks like the little white O ring.


Thank you very much in advance!

After thinking on it over night here are my thoughts:

1) The X-Valve diagram (same as Emag valve right?) shows two o rings above the on/off assembly but AGD website only has one small one for sale. Thinking it is just one small o ring that sits in the groove and that it is slightly different than the one in the classic parts kit.
2) I think it might be the level 10 bolt spring is too strong or the level 10 carrier is too tight causing the bolt to stick

anyone want to confirm thought process? Thanks.

1. Have to ask the obvious, are you running a check valve (usually coupled with remote lines)? Look at the link below. Make sure everything in the valve is clean, free of debris, and all orings are in good shape. You might just want to do a rebuild to be safe. A picture of your setup would help; we might see an accessory (e.g. on/off) that could be the culprit.
2. http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/down...agexploded.pdf
The link will show what parts you need. As you stated, there's a special quad oring at the top of an e-mag valve, but I don't think that is required in your setup.

What is the length of the on/off pin and trigger rod? Is there a credit card thickness gap between the back of the trigger and the trigger rod when pressurized?

Be careful. Wear eye protection at a minimum. Sounds dangerous disassembling a pressurized marker.


-Nathan

If the valve came directly out of an Emag, it will most likely have a Quatd o-ring as well as a .712 pin length. The shorter pin length could be making it difficult to push the pin back in especially if your trigger rod isn't adjusted out enough. It is not uncommon for the on/off pin to stick out after degassing the marker.

Thanks for the reply Nathan.

1. I do not have any check valve. I'll get pics tonight if needed. I did disassemble, clean, and oil the regulator seat, valve, power tube, and on/off (is there much more to take apart?). A rebuild would be a good idea.
2. Yes... I already looked at the emag diagram and xmag diagram and am getting confused. Right now I think I need one single little white O ring above my on/off. Planning on calling AGD tech support when they open and get what I need ordered.

I can get the caliper out and measure the pin/trigger rod tonight. It shoots fine with nice bounce at 950-1050 psi (or did until I lost my on/off o rings). I don't remember a gap between the trigger and pin but I'll double check. Do you think my level 10 shims or spring could be preventing the bolt from moving forward enough to vent? I would think would have found similar situation in my forum searches if that is the case (i seem to have read about every other lvl 10 issue).

YES.. it scared the crap out of me when it poped out (i thought the pressure was minimal... it was not). I now wrap a towel around the back of the valve and slowly unscrew the pressure regulator. The pressure is released slowly for the most part. You still get a small pop but the towel easily catches everything.


Thanks again.

You dont really need to measure the trigger rod, just make sure it is sitting about a credit cards thickness from the back of the trigger. The on/off pin length will most likely be .712.

Read this thread for a good description of when the quad oring is needed, mech vs electro, pin length and oring combos, etc.

https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...ght=Quad+oring

Only other thing to clean and inspect is the reg valve pin assembly.

Some of the old valves only had one oring at the top, so that may be the case with old emag valves as well. I remember many people wanted them milled out for two orings, so they could install a ULT.


-Nathan

That thread^^ is more in regards to what to use in an Emag, not using an Emag valve in a mech Mag. And yes, Emag valves only use the one O-ring similiar to a Retro Valve. At least the Emag valve that I have does.

True, that is the subject of the thread, but one can extract the "factory" AGD setup for each valve type from the thread.


-Nathan

Great! I think my valve needs a single oring above the on/off. The one from the classic repair kit fits too snug and didn't let the trigger re-seat fully each time.. guess I'll have to pony up the $4 and get emag o rings.

I'll also dig a little deeper on my reg valve pin assembly and see if that resolves the air release problem.

Thanks for all the help.

Called AGD and they explained that the on/off top oring(s) could be one of four configurations: single white o ring, Single black o ring with square cross section, two nested o rings, and the quad o ring (not sure if nested and quad are the same). What I gather is the single o ring configurations has a step milled in the valve. The black o ring was meant to seal slightly sooner that the white round oring and may allow the shorter trigger pin to function correctly. I think this is my original setup but I lost the black oring. I measured my trigger pin and it was 0.709 so I assume its the .712 pin. Also the single white o ring is the same size as one from the classic valve but will not work properly due to different materials and slide frictions against the pin. I ended up ordering the .750 pin and a pack of white orings.

Also the tech said I should see if there is an o ring stuck in the regulator brass part with the grooves. It was not so I still don't know why the pressure is not releasing. I added more oil in the regulator. We will see.

Get the o-rings and on/off pin, make sure your trigger rid is adjusted correctly and then see where you are. A lot of times one small variable will cause an issue. Trying to tech it without the proper parts is difficult.

My disclaimer is that OPBN is right that it's best to wait for all the parts.

That said, you may be able to try the following, if you so choose. Wear adequate personal protection equipment at all times.

1. Reassemble the marker without an oring on top of the on/off. Since your original hypothesis was the upper on/off oring causing the issues, assembling without it will test that hypothesis.

2. Air up the marker WITHOUT holding the trigger back. You may want to hold the bolt back with a barrel swab. I'm thinking the sear will catch, and everything will seal up properly. Without the top oring, the gun should only leak when you pull the trigger, so don't pull the trigger. Regardless, when you air up, expect a leak, and be prepared to quickly remove air supply.

3. If there is no leak, check for the credit card thickness gap between the trigger and trigger rod.

4. Carefully remove your air supply, and see if the marker stays pressurized. If depressurized, the new parts should solve the issue. If pressurized, it's something else, and it's time to post a pic of your entire setup. To further confirm this, you can redo these steps with the Teflon oring from the Classic kit, and see if results vary.

It's good you ordered the .750 pin. Now you have what you need to set your RT bounce to your liking, by playing with pin length and oring combinations and input pressure. A quad oring might offer a little more, but probably not much. Also, if the trigger gap is right, I wouldn't change it. Sounds like you already had good bounce, if that's what you're after, so a trigger rod length change would probably cause more harm than good.

FYI, the true white oring from the Classic kit is Teflon, the ones you ordered (a semi-transparent hued white) are urethane (AGD uses cast, there are also cheaper millable gum urethane orings which may not be adequate for Automag applications), and the black orings are Buna-N.


-Nathan

Thanks for all the info and suggestions. AGD said the parts should arrive today but think I will try your suggestions first. Good to know the oring composition. I don't think I can use the quad oring or the nested oring unless I get my valve milled to remove the step inside. Will report back.

RESOLVED!

Got the parts from AGD and it did not fix the problem. The longer pin felt much better and the urethane oring worked great but still had pressure in the "chamber" after airing it down. I removed the regulator pin and blew through the pin (ensuring all three holes were clear). I felt a little resistance at first so I think something may have been in there. Re-assembled and when the air was removed the pressure properly released. Thanks for all the help.

now everyone copy syxxty's post and show it to your GFs and wifeys. show them that blowing "through the pin" does help clear clogs and they should always try to do it when the pressure isn't leaving after degassing your mag :D

i'm sure a mod might edit this, but its worth a shot!

The clog may have been from the blue paintballs

or lack of use with improper or no lube

Well the issue re-occurred this past weekend. This time the reg pin was clear. I think it is my setup or air down procedure:

setup:
classic mag with expansion chamber, emag valve, and remote air line with shut off valve. If I must use CO2 I just switch out the emag valve for my classic (reason for expansion tank). Both valves have lvl 10 installed.

Air down procedure:
1. close remote air line valve
2. shoot till the pressure in the gun is not enough to overcome the bolt spring force
3. disconnect remote airline (sill has some residual pressure in expansion chamber and line on the gun)

The pressure in the on/off assembly stays in the gun. If I skip step 2 and just remove air I can shoot once and all pressure is release from the gun. Is this expected or shoud the residual pressure in the on/off assembly bleed back through the regulator? Thanks.

Do you have a way to run air to the valve without the remote line and expansion chamber (e.g. A duckbill ASA with air line directly to valve)? It doesn't matter if you can't hook the duckbill up to the bottom of the grip frame. You just want to isolate variables.

Does the Classic valve have the same issue?

To answer your question, all pressure should bleed back through the valve when the source is removed.

-Nathan

Yea.. I can connect my remote directly to the valve due to the quick connects I have installed (just by passes the expansion chamber). I don't really have any other ASA and my bottom line isn't long enough to connect to the valve. I'll try this tonight.

No, classic valve and my minimag does not have this issue.

Thank for the direct answer. I wonder if there is a minimum pressure that is require to vent out (to overcome sticktion?) but that doesn't make sense the more I think about it. I just can't seem to figure out what part of the reg assembly or on/off is screwed up. You would think any oring problems would lead to a LEAK.

Thanks for the help.

I want to make sure I understand. Do you have two complete setups?

1. Classic Mag body, E-mag valve, expansion chamber, remote line
2. Minimag body, Classic valve, and what airflow path?

If so, does the Classic valve have the same issue in the Classic body, expansion chamber, and remote line, and does the E-mag valve have the same issue in the Minimag body? This will let you know if it is valve related.

Still perform the test with remote directly to valve. Post results on that too.

And if you can post pictures of your setup(s), that would be helpful.

-Nathan

I keep forgetting to take pics.

Yes. Everything I have described has been my classic Mag with switching the classic valve to emag valve. The classic valve on the same setup vents pressure correctly.

I have a completely separate minimag with the same setup (stock minimag valve with stock bolt setup, expansion chamber and remote line with shutoff). I tried putting the emag valve on the minimag but my air lines are a little different and it didn't link up so I never tried. I will make it work tonight and report back.

Steps for me tonight:
1. Air directly to emag valve on classic setup (remove expansion chamber and remote from picture)
2. Try emag valve on minimag setup
3. TAKE PICTURES

To maximize your tinkering tonight, please also do the following:

1. Confirm the credit card thickness gap between back of trigger and trigger rod when pressurized. We spoke of this early on, but I do not see confirmation this was inspected.

2. In addition to setup pictures, please take a clear up close picture of the reg pin assembly from the E-Mag valve.

3. Try degassing with the trigger held back after your last shot until you remove the air source. I realize you'll be venting more pressure, since you won't be shooting the line dry after turning off the remote line. Report if this makes any difference.

Since your Classic valve vents properly, that makes me think it is the E-Mag valve. However, your statement

"3. disconnect remote airline (sill has some residual pressure in expansion chamber and line on the gun)"

still makes me think its something else in your setup.

Hang in there. We'll figure it out.


-Nathan

Roger

OK... Got some testing done. Did not have time to try everything.

1. Air directly to emag valve on classic setup (remove expansion chamber and remote from picture)
Tested with same result (Pressure remained in gun)
2. Try emag valve on minimag setup
Did not test yet
3. Confirm the credit card thickness gap between back of trigger and trigger rod when pressurized. We spoke of this early on, but I do not see confirmation this was inspected.
Pulling the trigger back with safety ON had zero gap between trigger and pin (but gun does not fire). If I push the trigger all the way forward and take the play out there is about a credit card thickness gap. This is with the new 0.750 pin installed.
4. In addition to setup pictures, please take a clear up close picture of the reg pin assembly from the E-Mag valve.
See below. The middle oring on the pin appears smaller in diameter. It also has a small crack (see last picture) but I don't see how that could effect my problem. Also the orange oring is a little spongy.
5. Try degassing with the trigger held back after your last shot until you remove the air source. I realize you'll be venting more pressure, since you won't be shooting the line dry after turning off the remote line. Report if this makes any difference.
I forgot to test this. Will do tonight. Have a question though. Should I dry fire until it does not shoot and then hold the trigger or shoot once and hold the trigger?
6. TAKE PICTURES

Setup:
Attachment 88001

Pressure Regulator Assembly
Attachment 88002

Regulator Spring 1
Attachment 88003

Regulator Spring 2
Attachment 88004

3. This should be fine. I assume if you point the pressurized marker at the floor to let the trigger flop forward, the credit card thick was gap is present, correct?

4. Middle "o-ring" is actually a single turn split washer. It's supposed to have the "crack" in it.

REPLACE THE ORANGE O-RING AND RETEST! I do not recognize that. It should be a urethane oring as I described previously. You should have one in your Classic kit, as I think it's the same size as something used in there. Your "spongy" description scares me, as the bleed must pass by this o-ring. If it's jammed, deformed, or otherwise not functioning properly, it could be the culprit.

5. Hold back trigger while still fully pressurized, then degas. Do not shoot the line dry.

Finally, when you said, "3. disconnect remote airline (sill has some residual pressure in expansion chamber and line on the gun)", did you mean the residual pressure stays or bleeds? If this pressure bleeds, but there's still some stuck in the valve, it's certainly the valve. I thought you meant it stays trapped in the expansion chamber and line.

My money is on that orange o-ring. Good luck!


-Nathan

3. Yep. flopping forward gives credit card gap

4. Whew. I'll replace orange first thing.

5. Ok.. I do know that if I do not shoot the line dry and leave a full charge in the gun and then remove the air line, I can shoot the last remaining shot and no pressure remains in the gun. I am going to guess that holding the trigger down will allow all pressure to bleed out of the gun as well.

Finally.... the pressure bleeds out of lines and expansion chamber but some stuck in the valve. Think we have it narrowed to the valve. Hopefully my orange oring is the problem.

Could not find urethane oring from classic repair kit. I tried a Buena-N oring from an oring kit I have and air just streamed out of the gun between the rail and the valve. Any one know of a good oring kit that will work with automags? I couldn't find a generic urethane oring kit on amazon. Otherwise I'll have to order an RT kit and post back.

FYI holding the trigger and then removing all air works. No residual pressure in valve.

Thanks for all the help.

Isn't that oring the same size as the Level 10 bolt stem oring? You should have an extra in your level 10 kit. If not, put the Buna in the bolt stem location, and the urethane in the reg seat location just for a test until you can get more parts.

The Buna is said to work in the bolt stem location, but you may need to change carrier size. Also the Buna might not last as long there.


-Nathan

Cool. I never thought to check my lvl 10 kit, just looked at the classic repair kit. Thanks again!

Nathan, You fixed my gun. Replacing the orange oring with a urethane one (from lvl 10 kit) resolved my problem. I guess it was so soft that it would seal low pressures from the on/off side and prevent it from bleeding out? Thanks for all your help!

Awesome! Glad I could help.

Yeah, o-rings can do funny things when under pressure.

I'm going to unsubscribe from this thread, so if something else comes up, PM me.


-Nathan