Beta testers,
Report your results here now that we have some units out in the field. We had a first report from Brian123 on Swarm and he said the system rocked in another thread.
AGD
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Beta testers,
Report your results here now that we have some units out in the field. We had a first report from Brian123 on Swarm and he said the system rocked in another thread.
AGD
Do not post in this thread unless you're reporting results from testing LVL 10.
Things we'll be looking for:
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
-The type of gun you're using it on
-Efficiency
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
-Any problems you encountered
-Other general comments
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
It took around 15 minutes to setup.
-The type of gun you're using it on
E-mag #00601
-Efficiency
Seemed to be around the same maybe a little LESS efficient.
(flatline tank pressure guage was wrong)
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
0 chops 0 breaks Nelson Anarchy Paint. Over 6,500 rounds run through the marker on Fri + Sat.
-Any problems you encountered
OCCASIONAL tiny leak down barrel that went away when I 'hit' the side of the mainbody near the bolt.
THIS GUN IS SWEET!!!!!!!!!!
<b>-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly </b>
The guys from Pride that went to the factory to get their lvl 10's installed spent about 3 hours fine tuning everything. This was before Tom had the "tweeners" so we had to go thru about 7 carrier o-rings each to find the right fit. Once we had the parts down, I'm able to install the kit within 5 min.
One thing you will have to keep in mind is that you will need to have your output pressure from your tank set to approx 800psi and you may have to crank your velocity nut up much further than you had it set at using the old internals. I found that since my tank was set at initally 600psi output, it was starving the gun when I rapid fired. Easily fixed.
<b>-The type of gun you're using it on </b>
E-mag w/ Warp + 12volt Revy. 4500psi 68cu Flatline
<b>-Efficiency </b>
I'd have to agree with the123 on the efficiency. It seems that the gun is a little less efficient but this is not very noticable, perhaps a loss of 100 - 200 psi overall.
<b>-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used </b>
I played today at Paintball Sam's scenario game and I had 2 breaks down the barrel, no chops with about 1000rds shot. This was using Diablo Blaze that had a pretty thick shell. It was roughly 3+ bounce paint.
<b>-Any problems you encountered </b>
One of the issues that I had was that when the barrel would flex, (ie. resting your barrel on top of a chrono), I would get a small leak down the barrel. This was fixed by replacing the o-ring in the carrier to another with a tighter fit and replacing the barrel o-rings.
<b>-Other general comments</b>
All in all, I am amazed with the way that the lvl 10 worked today. I managed to place my gun in weird positions that I knew would chop a ball using the old internals (ie. all the way on its side), only now to hear a "pssst" whenever the bolt caught on a ball.
Using an E-mag in combination with a warp and the lvl 10 upgrade is definately going to give any player an advantage over their competition.
It took me aproxamately 1/2 hour from start to finish to get the level 10 running, and working well.
the level 10 was installed ina 1995 micromag 2, running a PVI maxflow, shredder, and an oldschool lapco barrel.
I didn't get any efficancy numbers...
As for chops... I did manage to get the gun to fire 2 balls at once a time or two due to short stroking... but that's it. not a broken ball in the 500 I shot tonight. Half the paint was paint from blitz... tough paint. The other half was Polar ice that didn't get the last step done to it so it was disgustingly fragile. it would crack from a 4-6' drop.
There has to be a better way to get the o-ring carriers out of the gun. At least in my AIR they stick in there REALLY REALLY well...
Update: I took the micromag to badlandz this weekend (the 14th) And I handed my micromag to a newbie for the day. As if it's a change :-) the only thing that was dirty was the OUTSIDE of the mag. So that puts another 1000 rounds through the level 10. this time chronyed at 290. medium spring too :-)
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
About 20 minutes.
-The type of gun you're using it on
Automag #CF02704 AGD double trigger, Halo-B on top
-Efficiency
I could get at least 4 pods and a hopper with a 45/4500psi tank. Same as before.
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
0 chops 0 breaks, 1500 balls shot, Nelson Challenger paint
-Any problems you encountered
I short stroked 1 time and had 2 balls come out. No biggie.
-Other general comments
I feel special being on the field without a squeegie.
Less weight to hold me down ;)
It took about 10-15 minutes to get it installed and running properly in my E-Mag on Saturday. I had to work the booth all day so I didn't get the chance to put it to the test 'til Sunday.
I couldn't comment, yet, on the efficiency but I was throwing tubes of paint in the ice chest to get the paint as brittle as possible and then hammered on it to TRY to pinch some paint. That's hard to do with a Warp but I managed a few with NO ball breaks. This gun just rocks.
Steve D
AGD Lions
http://www.uniquehardware.co.uk/serv...m/cwm/eek2.gif Wow! I just spent the last three days at AGDE going through some milling stuff and fine tuning the new C&C's (saw the first production intent anno'd one BTW and it looks stunning!)
Anyway some beta test level 10 kits arrived on Monday Morning and I got the first one out of the box (my arms are longer than Johns's and anyway he was slow from having been up until 4.00m running test files on the mill)
John installed it on my old original RT (with vert feed body) and with a stock CF grip frame (I'll put my sprung loaded trigger frame onto it at some point... :D ;) ). It took him about 20-25 minutes because he wouldn't RTFM and because too many cooks were trying to get their hands on the parts :) (John Bonich was over also)
I think he tried 3 different carriers and two bolt springs (used the stock one by mistake to start with) before getting it up and running properly. Ended up with the longest spring and it was shooting at just under 300fps.
No idea on the efficiency because we were low on air. It definitely runs out of power more abruptly though. You don't seem to get as much shootdown when using the gun as it runs out of air. It's all seems ok, and then suddenly you are out of air and don't get any more shots.
So onto the shooting test (s). We were using some very brittle paint which would break first time from waist high. The gun shot it fine when used normally, so the hopper was turned off and I tried to shoot as fast as possible while tilting the gun from 90 degrees on one side over to 90 on the other. It shot several hoppers of the paint without a break. It must have stopped on about 20 balls at least and you hear a little 'pst' sound but it makes little difference to your rhythm when you keep firing. Sometimes when a ball is pinched it would then double load but fire both out cleanly on the next shot. (a small price to pay!)
My Vert feed RT is a very early prototype body and it has a vent hole on the side where you can look into the feed tube and breech. I could hold the gun on it's side, roll a ball half way into the breech and then pull the trigger :) Usually resulting in soup with any paint... not this time. I would pull the trigger 3-4 times resulting in several pinches before the ball would be pulled in and fired straight out without breaking! And this with paint that would break first time when dropped from waist height...
So onto some even more brittle paint... This would break first time from knee height! same test with hopper turned off and tilting the gun on it's side. Again lots of nice 'pst' noises and no chops! We put several hoppers through of this paint until I finally managed to get a chop, It was after pinching probably 20-30 of the balls that I found one fragile enough to break.
So we wondered how some other guns would fair shooting the same paint? Out comes a Sov II and my Spearhead Autococker, both set up to be as gentle on paint as possible. They would both shoot loaded balls fine but when tilting the gun over and purposely causing misfeeds the Autococker got out about 5 shots before chopping a ball. The Sov was shooting it fine but as soon as a ball didn't feed it made one hell of a mess!
When taking the hopper off the Sov some paint fell from about 4 feet onto the grass... and broke! We put the remainder through the RT with quite a few 'pst's but no breaks!!!
Ok, so now we were scouring around for some very brittle paint. All the old crap and rubbish that we could find... and then John put it into the freezer :) A few hours later we took it out to see how brittle it was (it was freezing my fingers). A ball dropped from waist high, broke first time, A ball from knee high broke first time, a ball from 1 foot broke first time and a ball dropped from 6"! broke first time! In fact all balls would break from just over a foot. If it didn't break on the first contact, on the second smaller bounce back up it would... So into the gun it goes and I let lose. The RT is shooting it all fine so we try and force misfeeds. The now familiar 'pst' was heard :) but then we did eventually chop one. I laid the gun on it's side and tried misfeeding balls one at a time, it would stop on 2/3 balls that would otherwise break when being dropped from less than a foot!
You should have seen the grins on our faces! John had to almost restrain me from emptying the rest of his paint store through my RT!
For the next 'scientific test' I sacrificed my finger to science. To get an idea of the bolt force in the different guns. I must admit I was suprised by how much force the RT still had on my finger, it was more than I was expecting but not enough to hurt. And then I put my finger in the Sov II, which had significantly more force than the RT now! My cocker, which will normally stop on Hellfire paint also had significantly more force than the RT. (my cocker is normally comparable to a matrix with trinity mod). WOW!
So anyway I want to check what velocity we are getting, so we take an e-mag with the kit over to the chrono... first shot was 299 and John goes to turn away happy that we were at tourny velocity levels, and I'm like 'no fire some more' second shot was 299... and john goes to turn away before I complain again, he turns back and the third shot is 300fps! I was simply stunned.
We must have shot at least 4 cases through this gun, trying to chop the whole way!
All in all a great day and my RT has a whole new lease of life. Can't wait to put an Iframe on it and start handing it out for others to try. Any Europeans who want can try and find me in Toulouse and you can use it for yourselves!
problems encountered? They wouldn't give me enough kits for all my guns and all my friends that have mags :)
Oh and we also put it to use in conjunction with the eye on an Extreme. This is the ultimate combination in my opinion, no breaks and no 'psts'. Just one long stream of extremely brittle paint... Can't wait to get my gun, some hellfire and go play a tournament!
manike
p.s. the manik-e-magbody got machined on Monday also and boy does it look better in real life than the virtual image. No piccies till it's annodised and finished though :) The body now weighs 5.5oz It started off at 11.25!
Boy was that a long post! Shartley eat your heart out :)
I got my LX today too! (Thanks Manike!)
I think I'm the first one who's posted who's actually putting it on an old (REALLY OLD) PF Mag instead of an emag/RT/Pro.
Edit: NeroBro put his on a Micromag, but I'm still sure this is the oldest mag so far... (SN: ProMag0271)
I have air & paint to try, but no chrony. Hmmm. That'll have to wait until sunday!
We managed to get the LX mod installed in about 20 mins. We used the 2-stripe o-ring carrier, the biggest mainspring and 2 shims.
Some things we noticed from dry-firing...
1. The trigger pull seems a little harder than before.
2. It seems a little less efficient, although I only had about 1.2k in my dive bottle to test on... enough for maybe 100 or so shots on a 0.9l tank.
3. We still get the odd little hissing leak when there's no pressure left in the tank.
We dont know the velocity 'cause we dont have a chrono (and also 'cause jon forgot to bring some barrels!), but it feels like it kicks the same as before.
We tried the 'Dollar bill' test but it's a little hard with a powerfeed.
We also tried the 'Dangle-ball' test, and it worked flawlessly; didnt break a single ball.
So Far, so good.
More after we try it on-field this sunday.
Jan.
-30 min to install in emag/warp
-1.5 carrier and middle bolt spring
-efficiency seems to be the same
-shot 3/4 of a case of blaze, 0 chops. The paint was not very brittle but I shot the gun gangsta style the whole time. This kind of shooting would have chopped all kinds paint with the old setup.
-I had the same prob with the barrel that Scooter had
-This thing is awesome. I cannot wait to shoot some brittle paint with this thing.
30min. install in my e-mag
10min. in my RT
Once you know what you're doing it goes pretty quick.
Efficency- Maybee a little less but nothing to complain about.
Breakage- Nothing in the e-mag after about 1000rnds I was at Sam's on Sunday with Steve and put some blaze on ice for an hour and shot it through my e-mag with a revy on top (no warp) and it still shot fine. I have 500rnds through my RT and since I haven't shot it in a while I short-stroked the crap out of it and still couln't break anything.
I love the Lv10. It is simply unbelievable!!!
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
3 hours (including on field to adjust the velocity)
-The type of gun you're using it on
E-mag with warped feed
-Efficiency
estimating less (look in general comments)
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
0 chops of 1000
-Any problems you encountered
changing velocity and others (look in general comments)
-Other general comments
When got to the field i realized that i forgot my sear pin, so i invented something that worked. I had to rent a tank (with a broken guage) and when it was filled they filled it differently every time, so i dont know for sure if it is less efficiant, but it felt like it was. I had my power feed missadjusted so i had to push each ball in and many balls got stuck between the breach, BUT NO BREAKS.
__________________
:D
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
20 minutes total - 1.5 carrier, 2 shims, and the long spring
-The type of gun you're using it on
Minimag
-Efficiency
less
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
0 chops, 0 breaks, marballizer
-Any problems you encountered
No problems, except maybe the fact that you have almost no warning (besides obviously the gauge) when you run out of air...it just stops...
Level 10 is SOOOO Cool! Just installed it in my sons Classic Mag. I have a Superbolt in my Emag, so I wanted to hold on to it until I saw how Level 10 worked. Besides I haven't chopped or broke a ball in my Emag since I got my HALO B back.
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly.
45 minutes with an additional 10 to set velocity. Carrier is 1.5 with the longest spring. 2 shims.
-The type of gun you're using it on.
Classic Mag, Dye double trigger grip, Flatline 68/3000, Armson Stealth barrel.
-Efficiency.
Slightly less, I used to get 7-800 balls per fill, got just about 650, but I had some dry shots while setting velocity, so only slightly less.
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used.
Couldn't get it to chop or break paint down the barrel, including turning the Revy off and shooting as fast as I can. (Maybe 7-8 BPS) AllStar Advantage paint.
-Any problems you encountered.
Pay very close attention to the shims when you install the tip. I used the Level 10 for dummies version instructions, and slightly tilted the valve, one shim slid in the way and got bent, this took me a little while to figure out, so I think I can install the next one in 10 minutes, and then set velocity.
-Other general comments
Suggestion, make the shims a little bigger diameter so they can't slide in the way. Include a few more shims of the current size until they can be resized. Just for the BETA versions. The Street versions need to have the bigger diameter versions.
Finally: WOW, Tom you are a genius!!
Input Pressure: 800 PSI
Bill
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
Donno, done by AGD-E on my Emag C&C.
-The type of gun you're using it on
Emag Extreme C&C + ACE + LVL10
-Efficiency
Slightly lower, very slighly.
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
0, nada. Test done with very old paint (Tornado), Severe and the latest Zap Chronic. Paints were 3-4 bounces before break, and 0 bounce comming from the freezer for one of the test hehe.
I shot around 2000 balls.
The real test will be Toulouse, of course.
EDIT: Over the 5 cases of paint shot at Toulouse, no shop, even with the battery dead on my revo :) , and that was with the ACE disabled.
-Any problems you encountered
Not the smalest one.
I tend to go with the comment of Manike about the shootdown just before you run out of air. With the mod 10 it seems the marker works perfectly, then just stop firing. That's not a problem of course.
-Other general comments
The kickback I had with my old Emag is gone, as are the shops.
Incredible improvement of the mags!
First practice with LEVEL 10
For the setup see my previous post except i put the longest bolt spring in.
-efficiency-about 800 shots out of a 68 4500
-# of breaks- ZERO (aprox. 1500 rounds blaze paint) I tried to make it chop.
-problems- the bolt stuck on me acouple of times during the first two games. I turned the air off and on and it started working again. Then I ran a little oil through it and didn't have a problem the rest of the day.
-comments- Awesome. I broke alot of paint with the emag before this mod, that seems to be a thing of the past. It is like a completely different gun.
At practice today I put my e-cocker aside and used my RT with level 10. Now this gun is set up with a stock single finger Carbon fibre trigger frame and let me state 'that I can no longer shoot single finger trigger frames on mechanical guns' :)
I've been corrupted by double triggers (have been using one since they first came out over 6 years ago!) and electro triggers. So my technique with a mechanical trigger and using just one finger sucked! I managed many short strokes and would normally have been breaking my share of paint.
I didn't break one ball all day! Even when fluffing the trigger there were still no broken balls. Puts an end to short stroking worries!
What makes this doubly amazing is that I was using 2 year old hellfire! yep two years old:) . It's stuff that I have had in my garage and spare room and attic and forgot about, I couldn't use it before because it was just too brittle and made a hell of a mess. Today, apart from the fact that it was sweating and some of it covered in a white powder it shot beautifully! (ask Jan and Jonneh :D hehehe) I shot a case and a bit of it with no problems or issues.
I wasn't using my Halo B either, just a normal rev with low batteries (didn't bother to change them as it was more of a test).
Several of the guys used to shoot RT's and were stunned. I asked one to put his finger in the breech and pulled the trigger, he jumped a mile :) before realising how little force there was. Their comment was 'wish they'd done that years ago'...
ok, a few issues have arrived with my set up though. I find the main tank reg needs to be giving a higher pressure to keep it all running right. I'm feeding it at about 800psi (which my AIR isn't too happy about... can't wait to get my Armageddon tank back from test).
Also to get the velocity I think the gun is now running very close to the relief valve pressure. Sometimes (with both of my RT's that I've had the level 10 in) the gun starts venting out the back of the velocity adjustment screw. By running at a little lower velocity it solves this but not always. Every now and then it starts venting again. I wonder if maybe you could increase the relief blow off point? I don't want to change to a shorter spring, if that means the bolt force is increased... (not sure if that would help this problem anyway?).
Also sometimes I get a slight leak down the powertube, by putting a very slight pressure on the trigger the leak then stops... I'm thinking this means that the little hole on the bolt plunger is very close to the carrier o-ring positions and pulling the trigger pushes the bolt back just slightly (before releasing it) and thus pushes the hole back behind the o-ring... now I'm thinking I could fix this by taking out a shim... only I don't have any shims at all in my RT set up :D
Other than that this does feel like a whole different gun! As Pandora points out the kick is seriously reduced over a normal RT also.
I use a vert feed body and there is way less blowback than the old set up also.
I can't wait for my extreme to be back from the annodisers! I also need to get an inteliframe for my RT, with a blade double trigger my vert feed RT will be perfect the perfect back up (and loaner) to my extreme e-mag! :D
manike
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
less that 3 hours (no field adjusting was required)
-The type of gun you're using it on
Emag with warped feed
-Efficiency
unnoticible change
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
0 breaks or chops out of 2000 paintball i found in my basement that are atleast 6 months old. types include JT, RP Premium, BigBall, RP thermal (what ever the name is, the kind u use in winter), and a few types i couldnt figure out what they were
-Any problems you encountered
one double feeding which broke a few feet from the barrel
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
15-20 minutes, #2 carrier, stock spring, approx. 800psi
-The type of gun you're using it on
E-mag with Classic Valve #02704 (about 11yrs. old, still had a spring for the PT spacer), #2 carrier and stock spring, Warpfeed w/ dual 9v's in Parallel, Halo Hopper
-Efficiency
Slightly less it seems.
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
Friday: 1300 cheapest Challenge Park Xtreme paint (Blaze I think, if anyone else knows, speak up) 0 and 0
Saturday: 1100 Nelson Challenger 0 and 0
Sunday: 1000 Nelson Nel-Splat 0 and 0, 600 RPS (2 years old, non-dryshell formula, shooting in runaway hybrid mode 16BPS) 0 chops 3 breaks, then used a straight shot, then put 300 nelson challenger 16bps runaway, 0 and 0
Monday: 300 Nelson Challenger 1 chop 0 breaks (another runaway demo for a friend of mine)
-Any problems you encountered
Tiny leak down barrel that goes away when I tap the side of the mainbody with my hand, or when I cycle the marker.
If the N2 tank output pressure is set too low it seems the gun will not shoot. A problem, only if your N2 regulator is inconsistant.
-Other general comments
I never thought my E-mag could go into runaway in Hybrid mode with the CLASSIC Mag valve!
My warp batteries are dying, i've put about 10,000 paintballs through the same batteries. This last test on monday pinched about 10-12 balls before chopping that single ball.
The past 3 weeks, i've shot close to 6 cases of paint, and with only 1 chop and 3 breaks with the Level 10 setup.
:)
Everyone that has this kind of luck with THEIR Level 10 should send AGD a Thankyou card.
For real your using an AIR valve in a E-mag?Quote:
Originally posted by the123
E-mag with Classic Valve #02704 (about 11yrs. old
I'm just curious, why?
Conversion emags used whatever stock valve you had. thats my guess here...Reminder though...DO NOT POST HERE unless reporting actual install experience! But I will leave this as a reminder. use PM or start a new thread if you want to ask questions to an individual user - cphilip
LOL! nice signature insert!
I just got my Level 10 and I didnt have time to FULLY explore its potential - but this is what I found out:
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
About 20-30 min
-The type of gun you're using it on
Mr. Orange - My Emag
-Efficiency
Didn't shoot it enough to reach a conclusion
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
See report below
-Any problems you encountered
none (other than low on air)
-Other general comments
OK - I was very short on time - and low on air. But I took out the parts and got to work. It took about 15-20 min to swap the parts out - partly because I took it real slow as to not screw something up - and partly because I was distracted. I was doing this at my local store (the new warped sports in KC) and was showing of the new bolt etc to anyone who was with in 5 ft of me.
I put it together per Toms "fast start" instructions. Gassed it up - no leaks - no shooting either. Cranked the velociy probably a full turn or two (Tom - what is the operating pressue of the mag now with the level 10? Does this change the optimal length for barrel acceleration?)This resulted in the gun shooting. Took it out back with some free - but crappy "rec" paint. Chronoed 290-300ish. OK - good to go.
The Test!
Took some electrical tape and one of the rec balls. It was 2-3 bounce paint - not real brittle - but average for what you will find on many fields. Used the tape to put a ball in only 1/2 way. HOLY COW - THE BOLT BOUNCES OFF THE BALL! YAY IT WORKS! IT WORKS!!!
I dont know about everyone else - but I had LOW ball breakage in my emag w/warpfeed and pre BE Rev. BUT - I did managed to break ALOT in tournies due to A) not turning on the rev or B) not stopping when the rev was out of paint. No doubts - I would break if I managed to screw up and misfeed my gun.
My "idiot" test I ran was using the warp, emag on 16 bps semi, and turn the rev *off*. I jiggled the gun while fanning the trigger. It sputtered and burped and shot - but it got rid of the hopper with NO breaks!
I then decided to just rip a hopper with some paint at 16bps - out running the rev - but still having fun. Now here - I had about 3 barrel breaks - and the reason was I was LOW on air - i would get a ball stuck 1/2 way in the barrel and the second ball would smack into it. Im sure of this because I slowed down and watched this happen. It wasnt chopping!
I hope to this weekend go out and fine tune it to shoot paint thats so brittle from being frozen - more report to follow!
great job Tom - its a keeper!
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
45-60 minutes.
-The type of gun you're using it on
RT w/Inteliframe
-Efficiency
Seems similar to before, but when I turn off the flatline, I get two shots, then nothing. No leak, no hiss, no anything. Guess that flatline gauge is really important.
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
0-500 RPS stored in my closet for the last few weeks.
-Any problems you encountered
I apperently didnt seat the oring in the carrier correctly, as the fit felt very tight, until I tried to fire. At first it wouldnt, until I cranked the velocity up, and then after four or five shots it started leeking horrendously.
-Other general comments
Rippin'. I would install the ORing, and try all of the carriers to see which two or three are the best. Then, check the markings to see sizes, if one is way off the others, dont consider using it.
It took me about 15 minutes to get it up and running. 5-8 of them were trying to figure out what the diff. parts were. (I printed out the instructions but forgot to print the diagram outlining the parts).Quote:
Originally posted by BlackVCG
Do not post in this thread unless you're reporting results from testing LVL 10.
Things we'll be looking for:
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
-The type of gun you're using it on
-Efficiency
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
-Any problems you encountered
-Other general comments
I'm using my Minimag (Alice) with a evil reactor valve which does nothing. (Shows it works even with evil aftermarket parts)
For the Efficiency I did see a dropoff a little. It wasn't extremely noticable, but I get my tank topped off after every game.
I shot 1000 rounds of JT Maxim, and 1000 rounds of Inferno, I got zero breaks from chops/barrel
I didn't have any problems, and was overly happy when I thought that I would test it out hardcore, and took off my warp and revvy and finally found a use for that VL200 we get when we buy a new mag. Put that on the top and even though it didn't even come close to keeping up while I fanned the trigger, it didn't chop once! I was also using the Plastic nubbins if that also matters, I didn't double feed as others have.
Results so far with the LVL10 are outstanding!
Since the team has upgraded 2weeks ago we have gone
through approx. 20cases of various brands of paint
and all types of feed systems from warps to vert.highrise
and there have been no chopping issues what so ever!
Gun types from RT's to Retro's and Emag's
There is aprox.a 10 to 20 percent loss in effeciency, however
the accuracy seems to have improved by at least 10 percent with the new super bolt so its definately an acceptable trade off not to mention NO CHOPPING!
Excellent work AGD!
Harry
It took me about 45 minutes to set it up in my minimag (with AIR valve). It took awhile because I had some issues with the main spring (see below). I followed the "Fast start" instructions, set it up with the 2 carrier, had barrel leaks, so I then switched to the 1.5 carrier and no longer had barrel leaks.Quote:
Originally posted by BlackVCG
Do not post in this thread unless you're reporting results from testing LVL 10.
Things we'll be looking for:
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
-The type of gun you're using it on
-Efficiency
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
-Any problems you encountered
-Other general comments
I've only fired it in my backyard a little bit so at this point I can't really comment on efficiency or actual game performance, however I really enjoyed sticking things into the breech and seeing the bolt bounce off. :p
I ran into some problems with velocity. I started with the clipped spring that came with the kit, and eventually switched down to my old bolt spring, which is the shortest one I had available. That was the only spring with which I could get the mag to fire without the regulator venting. Even then, my range of velocity adjustment was limited. What can I do to either A) increase the range of velocity adjustment with that spring, or B) get it to fire with the other springs, and without the regulator venting?
The regulator venting has been a slight issue with my gun. But I was using the longest bolt spring and trying to set it as softly as possible while staying right at the velocity limit.
I'm curious as to what carrier everyone is using? Is it worth a seperate thread? (mods if it is please cut this out and start one) if not it would be nice for everyone who hasn't already stated it to do so.
I am using carrier 1.5, I was using 2 but brought it down (and thus tighter) after a slight barrel leak.
manike
After more tuning, I switched to the 2 carrier, and using my old mainspring, got a sufficient range of velocity adjustment that I think should be fine for indoor or outdoor.
For those who haven't yet tested, make sure that you really wear in the powertube o-ring that goes in the carrier.
Manike, I think people can just state in here what setup they used. Again, my setup was the 2 carrier, with my original mainspring.
I used the 2 carrier, longest spring, with 900psi pressure, and the closest screwed in reg nut where it wouldn't blow off.
Hey guys, I got my level 10 kit on the first of July. Here is the ghetto testing setup:
· Classic Automag- CF63652
· Z-grip
· Standard/classic feed (which ever you like to call it)
· Co2 with smart parts on/off valve
· VL 200
· (Ghetto(if you know what I mean)heh)
Anyway I had just got my tank filled earlier that day, around noon. At about 5 or so the ups man came and brought me my package. (I hate ups they don’t come to my house till 5) I opened it up and took out a bag and inside that bag was a box with 3 springs and a bolt and another bag with some baggy stuff in it. I couldn’t get on the computer because my brother was on. So I waited. When I finally got on I got the instructions and I followed them good.
Some problems that I faced:
· Once I got it set up it took me about 3 guesses to guess which carrier to use.
· When I got it in there, the velocity was too low and I had to jack the velocity up quite a bit. The trigger was pressurized but it wouldn’t shoot.
· When it was finally cycling, I tried to put some paint though it, but the setting was on so light it wouldn’t shoot. It would should like its pinching and it pushed the ball past the nubbin and it wouldn’t work.
· After that I talked with Cphilip, I put in a longer spring and again I had to turn up the velocity some more. Not a big problem. But then when I was dry firing it about 3-4 balls per second it would stop cycling after about 3 shots until I stopped shooting for about 10 seconds. Sounded like shoot down but I don’t really know what shoot down sounds like.
· Phil said to put in the shortest new spring so I did. Every thing sounded okay when I dry fired it but then I went outside to put some paint though it and it kind of sputtered a little and then quit. I started to panic and I took my spyder and screwed on the tank and then it was out of air so then I was relieved
· I am now out of air.
The next day...
Today I got my tank filled. It was fun but it took a long time. When I got home I gassed it up and shot about 10 shots. Air was leaking out of my air fitting so I reteflon-tapped it and its good now. I was about to put my finger in the breah but then I put a pen in and it look like it hurt the pen so I was like “It’s too much” and then I put in the middle spring and it was all good. I shot about 300 shots but I am about to go out and shoot some more. I had 0 chops or breaks. I was using about 4 week old PMI premium. Then I shot my finger and I felt that the foamy was gone so I didn’t have a foamy in there but it still shot about the same.
Here are the questions answered.
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
about an hour.
-The type of gun you're using it on
Its up there
-Efficiency
It appeared to be less.
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
0/0 4 week old PMI Premium paint
-Any problems you encountered
Look up…
-Other general comments
Noting really, but the trigger pull seem to be a little bit harder or I just didn’t notice how it was
Before
One of the best upgrades for your mag! I highly recommend it.
EDIT: i forgot to say thanks to cphilip and jonneh!! thanks guys
(Mods I'll delete this once you've had a chance to see it)
The one thing that people haven't been saying that i think maybe beneficial is what input pressure people are running. Manike had noted earlier that sometimes the gun starves without enough on the input side...so i was just wondering whether or not that also might be beneficial to Tom.
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
It took around 45 minutes to get it to finally work. About ten minutes was used getting familiar with the instructions and parts.
-The type of gun you're using it on
RT Pro
-Efficiency
I'm not sure. My gauge is apparently acting funny.
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
ZERO chops or breaks. I shot only 300 rounds of paint until my tank was empty. But the paint was 2 year old Proball. :D
-Any problems you encountered
My only problem was getting the carrier back out of the power tube. wesley was on AO chat and told me a pen. I didn't have one handy, so he recommended a small screwdriver - which worked well. Thanks wes!
-Other general comments
I forgot the order in which the carriers got larger. Maybe they should be in the instructions 2.0
My carrier o-rings were also already on the carriers.
My delrin washer wasn't black. Mine was an off-white color. I was kind of confused by the instructions/picture and with what I had in my kit.
Other than that, nice job AGD!
***Update***
I forgot some info.
I'm using carrier 2.5 with middle spring.
My tank is under 800psi right now, so I think that is why my reactivity isn't very reactive. Anybody else getting funny reactiveness? I'll have to refill to tell for sure.
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
-Not very long..I lucked out and the first setup worked great-Maybe 10 mins
-The type of gun you're using it on
Regular old standard Mag
-Efficiency
I was using CO2 on this test...so hard to tell. I will update when I can get my HPA tank filled. I used a 20oz full C02 tank for this.
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
I had about 100 balls ranging in age and type since I started paintball 4 years ago--Brass Eagle, Marbs, Team Colors, etc. NO CHOPS. This old crappy stuff Didn't break. Either did some unknown brand new unknown paint I had in my pods.
[/b]-Any problems you encountered
None yet[/b]..it was a quick test--Too darn hot out now.
-Other general comments
This rocks..
Regarding the above post about the white carrier....Yea lol I was searching the rug below me for a couple mins trying to find a black carrier I thought I lost. Note to AGD--Update the instruction about the color .
1st and formost WWWWOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!
took about 20 min (once i was able to undo my old PT tip... TK you got gorillas puttin these things on???) =)
for now i have the 1.5 carrier though i still hear a very, very small leak down the barrel (have to hold ear upto p/f to hear it) middle spring, 2 spacers.... this was done with no chrony... i'm going to my local field 2nite (indoor team nite) and need to get to a 275fps or lower....
needed to crank on the back of my retro (2 1/2 turns) to get it to fire to what sounded normal..... also as a side effect for the first time sence i got my retro it went into runaway.... was able to control it but i think i will need to drop my input down to 1k or less, running 1.1k at time of install
went into my miniRT/Zgrip
as far as effciency.. .cant really say... i started with 3.5k in my tank and 2k in my scuba... needless to say i need to get it filled again
had 2 chops and about 15 break down the barrel.... though i am sure it was the paint.... 4 mo old BE (hey it was 20 for the case shipped) =) and there were at least 2 cracked/broken ballz in the bag of 500 i shot.... i switched over to about 400 each of diablo rec spot and 32°TC both of which went through fine... i could hear the bolt only pinchin on the ballz (as i was/left it with the runaway for this first test)... i know now i need to redjust my warp senseitivity... though i was not watchin it real close but it was most likely my Xboard revy was not keepin up.... did runaway for the whole hopper... only 3 times did the trigger not bounce on a misfire and i quickly got it going again.... after that i needed to pick my jaw up off the ground =)
well like i said i'll be playin tonight for team night... i'm pretty sure that they wont mind if i leave it set like it is now (ie runaway if i try for it) if not oh well i can adjust.... i do agree with WillWood.... i spent a couple of min thinking i had lost the black part... but then like will i realized it was white (yes this is nit picking.. but build a foolproof product and the world builds better idiots)
now time to get ready for my play tonight.... i'll post another report when i get back
first impressions after shooting :D [school girl giggle] hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe [/school girl giggle] :D
time to install: dummy directions bout 2 min
gun: Old school RT with Z grip and PMI Preset at about 900psi by the 2 guages on the gun
hopper: both a rickochet AK and a VL200 (yeah, ol vl200 no motoloader here :D)
got it setup, was shooting way hot after I got it shooting, changed out to the lower spring and brought myself down to 280 again. fired some shots at 350 and broke two in the barrel and chopped one after trying hard, turned it down and zero and zero
okay, i bet two guys at my local shop $5 each 2:1 odds that neither me, nor either of them could get my RT to chop. I have lunch money for tomorrow now :D
ran about 900 rounds of the crappiest paint we could find through this gun, 0bounce from 4 feet marbs, first gen 2 year old advantage PMI paint, new really brittle Worr paint and some real crap kickin.
after I was at 280 fps 0 chops, 0 breaks no matter how fast we ran, we actually turned the power feed plug sideways to try to get it to chop. couldnt...
We also tried to short stroke the gun but no such luck, it just wouldnt no matter how hard we tried... added side benefit? i dont know....
all in all, i sold 4 level 10s today... almost rented my RT to a guy for his tourny saturday for 50, but he didnt have cash and i know him too well to take a check :D
THANK YOU AGD AND CREW
ok as i said in my last post here are my results....
paint pmi advantage shell... 2-4 bounce.. also a little dimpled but not much
my miniRT shooting 268-273fps, 14" jnj ceramic, Zgrip 5.6k flatline with an output of 1k
left my squeegee in my bag and played.... 0 chops 0 breaks down barrel.... only thing is i may actually have to change my 9v in my X-revy i had a bunch of blank shots during some of my longer strings (greater then 10 shots).... also i need to adjust my warp.. one game it kept spinning... fixed that went too far found the happy med and came to the conclusion it was the hopper not keeping up.... but as i said not chops... most of the guyz there were very impressed... esp after i did the straight shot demo down the barrel.... i think i need to move LvX retro over to my micro to do teh ball on tape demo... anyhow i couldn't be happier great job AGD...
Ok quick report as its late...
EMAG with Flatline at 800 psi input.
Got mine runing in an hour...spent some time trying to find out from members here if they also had a white backing washer. A lot them did. Its the only washer in the kit that is not metal so that is the right one to use as the backing washer. and its flat.
After that point the only thing I ran into was to up the size of the carrer one size tighter (gonna have to look but it was snugger than what i first though was snug) and had to veloctiy one time or so. I had started out using the cut spring and changed to the stock old spring and then two spacers. Seem working fine.
My main problem was a sticky macro fitting and a retention of 300 psi in the line. But those only slowed me down a bit. And of course trying to confirm the Backing washer change. Also my not reading the quick start early enough and noticing the use of the stock spring for first set up.
I have not put paint though it nor stuck any appendages in there! I did put a handle from an old tooth brush in there (one i use to clean parts with) and it stops it ona dime.
A couple of tips:
A good O Ring pick comes on real handy to retrieve the carriers when trying on the bolt and in the PT. and for changing out the oring into the carriers. You need one anyway so go get one at your local autoparts store.
Plenty of air. SCUBA got a work out. was only getting about 2K fills. But did like four of them.
Do not worry about the white flat washer its the backing washer.
Start with the fast start instructions and it will be close.
make sure the carrier you chose it plenty snug not just snug. Two of them may actually work for you.
Get a degas system (degas slide check, proconnect etc) on there if you are hard lined (SS or Macro no QC) as the residual pressures in the marker are going to be two to three and even four times higher than before.
Conclusion:
I will have to update this with paint and break in. I got some real old Nelson and a crono hope to do that tomorow.
Official cphilip Proclamation:
This sucker works!!!!! :D
Added on edit after setting up on RT Pro and crono/paint results
Same carrier used in the emag set up of course. The 1.0 and two shims. First with stock spring then up to the middle (cut) spring. And eventuauly tried the longest. Was getting an occasional bolt stick with that longest one and the velocity was way close to the venting point. In fact would vent a little on pressure up. So I decided to go back down to the middle spring and set it up there. Over the Crono I got nice set up around 280 or so with some old Nelson Splat that was hanging around for the last five or six months. Some of this stuff was breaking first drop from about 3 feet. I turned the revy off and after the crono set went crazy on the thing trying to missfeed. I did hear it missfeed four times (stop on a ball and hiss) but no breaks in the PF nor down the barrel. I think I am going to settle in on this set up. Middle spring i.e. the moderate set up but still not too hard on the finger!
This sucker still works!!!! Can't wait to get the emag reset up.
Yo, yo, yo! level 10 has arrived...
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
I read through the long procedure, and began the process. To get the gun to a working state, I would say that it took about 20 minutes. However, this is only PRELIMINARY. It didn't chop under normal circumstances, and appeared to fire consistantly, but I wish to tweak it a little more as there were a few mis-cycles, and the force is not as low as it might be if I altered the setup. More as it comes along...
Current setup is small spring, 1.5 carrier, and two shims.
-The type of gun you're using it on
Automag, CF17059. This marker is close to 9 years old.
-Efficiency
So far, I can't say. I will edit this part later.
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
1 break after the bolt was cycled thrice on one round, which was held tightly in place with a finger.
Normal shooting exhibited no breaking through 300 rounds. Care was taken to force misfeeds by underloading a conventional hopper and angling the marker.
All sorts or OLD paint. 0 bounces at 6 feet, 1 to two at 3. Most had a high propensity to break at the seams.
-Any problems you encountered
As mentioned, the carriers can be difficult to remove.
The bolt still moves with a bit of force. I think that it is probably average for the initial setup of this mod. I must note that I was able to get the bolt force reduced beyond the point that it is at now, but it required the velocity to be adjusted just to the fringe of the maximal setting, which resulted in venting. I am going to try to alter spring and carrier combos to maximize the benefits. Perhaps breaking in the o-ring better will help.
Also, I may add another shim as it seems the bolt is not venting sufficiently at times.
-Other general comments
The trigger pull is noticeably heavier than before. I think this is due in part to the need to have the velocity adjusted to such a high level. Also, I suspect that lip of the bolt may be exerting a bit more friction upon the sear.
Also, for some odd reason, short-stroking seems to have increased. I think this may be due in part to the tightness from the setup and the use of the smaller spring, which may by impairing the cycle. I will update on this once I tweak and break in the system fully.
Guys, using my scientific finger testing method I have tried the different bolt springs :) . I found the longest one results in significantly less bolt force (and thus chances of chopping).
I suggest if you can get the right velocity with the longest spring that you do. Resort down to the smaller and original springs if you can't get the right velocity with the longer one.
I also found that if you get a slight leak down the barrel which stops when you apply a tiny pressure to the trigger that you have too many shims in. Try taking one out and see if that works. My gun is now running without any shims and still resets perfectly if it stops on a ball. Adding shims does not stop leaks! It helps the resetting of the bolt due to where the air release hole is. Removing shims can stop slight leaks caused by where the release hole is in relation to the o-ring.
That's all for now, getting ready to go to Toulouse :) Keep your eyes on www.warpig.com for my report and possibly the first ever pictures of a C&C in tournament play...
manike
Oh yeah almost forgot, input pressure up at 1150 as always:DQuote:
-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
An hour and half all together because at first I forgot to play with the velocity and kept getting stumped on why it would leak ornot work at all, etc... Once i reread and printed out the instructions it probably only took about 10 min. to put it together...
-The type of gun you're using it on
Warp feed, left feed minimag, 68 c.i. 3k AGD flatline tank, Retrovalve
-Efficiency
Not noticeable, but for once my valve went into runaway while w/o level 10 it never did
-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
0 breaks mixture of new diablo seconds and 8 MONTH old Team Colors (only ~250 rounds all together)
-Any problems you encountered
Didnt play with velocity settings during the "leak" testing steps, made a world of difference when I did
-Other general comments
Tom Kaye is a genuis just for adding a lil O-ring here and a little brass doo hickey there to make it not chop.
I took off the warp feed and used a hopper AND turned it off. It makes nifty hissing sound when it pinches
U P D A T E
Having run several hundred rounds through the marker, I have found what appears to be an ideal setup for my particular assembly.
I am using the 1.5 carrier, the "funny" spring, and three shims. It has been tested in conjunction for perhaps 1k shots with both CO2 and HPA at 875psi.
I am able to get the velocity I need without venting, and the bolt force is sufficiently low that even the most brittle paint, that I would encounter in real conditions, will not split or crack (0 bounce@4 ft.). Also, the addition of the extra shim seems to have alleviated the problem with bolt stick.
I MAY try to see if I can lighten the force further, although it would not really be needed at this point.
ALSO, for those of you whom misplace picks too often to have one when it is needed, the carrier may be easily removed by a paper-clip with a bent tip. Just get a few clips, bend the tips to a 90 degree angle, and keep them with your kit.