Closed bolt markers and pinching paint......

Well im here to stir up some controversy or a freindly debate, whatever u wanna call it. In the firestorm autococker thread people were talking about closed bolt markers and how its just pointless, because every gun FIRES from a the bolt being closed. Im on the side of the people that say closed bolt does squat, they say that closed bolts also give u a flat ball trajectory, from what ive experienced cockers(closed bolt) do not give me any more flatness in the ball flight then an angel( people also say that angels lob paintballs at an arc, this is soo not true) and all these people with biased opinions on guns that do this and guns that do that, like cockers being the most accurate, angels lobbing balls, mags breaking paint.... where the heck do people come up with these things??? ive had first hand experience with all of them and with the same barrel they all perform equally good with own unique featues as long as they are set at the same fps. Now i just want to hear what all u people think about closed bolts and more accuracy(even on the marker reviews on pballgear.com they showed that the mag was more accurate than the cocker, even with aftermarket barrels) or even other rumors about how guns shoot. Also, on another thread they said matrixes and cockers can pinch balls, is this just becaues they are closed bolt and becasue of the closed bolt the ball does shoot when the bolt is coming forward so u can adjust how hard u want the bolt to return and thus allowing it to pinch a ball and not break it.

I do agree that closed bolt is a little more gas efficient. (Specially when its shooting at a lower fps:D)lol

cockers, matrix's etc. pinch the ball simply because the pressure moving the bolt is low enough, that the ball can
take being hit by the bolt, without breaking.

As a former Marine competition pistol and rifle shooter, I will be happy to argue you on this point. All types of projectiles leave the barrel and fly down range in an arc. If you dont belive me, grab a spotter scope hit the 1000 yard line and watch rounds go down range. You can watch the air disturbence and see the arc. Its pretty cool to watch also.

Aaron

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Originally posted by CpSuPeRkId
people also say that angels lob paintballs at an arc, this is soo not true

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Well, then, to top off all these lies..



Talons are super accurate, dont break paint, run at 1 psi and shoot 500 fps easily, theyy have a super reg inside that is so constant if you could adjust the velocity very quickly and fire two balls, you could get the first one with the second one, but of corse thats with its super multi bore setting. All you need to do is think of the bore you want and it shoots super efficiant super quiet and with super accuracy. It has a quick switch like those action figures with the flip heads. Bam single trigger bam double trigger bam blade trigger. It has a switch that makes it shoot open or closed bolt and has a built in super feeding system so you dont need a rev.
You can never shortstroke or chop.
They can run at 1 to 25 bps accuratly and consistantally with its built in atomic timer. The trigger is adjustable to the longest pull you can imagine or so short you can touch it and have it fire. ~Y3K talon

Damn ... year 3000 and the trigger pulls still are not short enough. Wont anyone every solve this problem.

Aaron

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Originally posted by personman
The trigger is adjustable to the longest pull you can imagine or so short you can touch it and have it fire. ~Y3K talon

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Year 3500 there are no triggers! :eek:

from what i experienced with closed bolt markers they do give you more accuracy

^^^^^ FIRE IN THE HOLE!!

Sorry, I cant do that Obsolete, I need closed bolt action to be accurate enough to fire in the hole..

Hasn't Tom said that accuracy comes from matching ball to bore size enough times to make it stick in peoples brains for the rest of all time? Its a well known fact that gravity does exist and it will cause any projectile to arc. As far as pinching and chopping paint...its not the gun its the shooter!

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Sorry, I cant do that Obsolete, I need closed bolt action to be accurate enough to fire in the hole..

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LOL good call.

this is about the fifth time i've posted this in the month of June, which i remind you people we are only a week and a half into. do everyone a favor, read this article and come back and share with the rest of us your new-found knowledge and appreciation for physics. :D :D

Screw physics we all know elves make stuff operate.

The advantage of a marker like the Autococker when shooting is that if you are taking slow aimed shots, there is less kick from moving parts to throw your aim off by shaking the marker, because the bolt is at rest and only the hammer is moving, note that although this is not actually recoil (it occurs after the firing cycle) it is usually referred to as such. This is a moot point when rapid firing. Paint-to-barrel match and velocity consistency is far more important than recoil. No gun 'lobs' or shoots flatter, except the Z-Body Automag and Flatline M98's & Flatline Cockers, which induce backspin on the ball in order to add lift, and change the trajectory. Paintball are not deformed by the firing forces.

Efficiency: Fixed volume guns are less efficient than pin-valve guns, and blowbacks are less efficient than non-blowbacks.

With fixed volume guns, efficiency tends to go up as pressure does, while pin-valve guns tend to the opposite. This is the reason that LP Cockers are so efficient and Matrixes and Shockers have horrific efficiency.

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Originally posted by personman
Sorry, I cant do that Obsolete, I need closed bolt action to be accurate enough to fire in the hole..

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HAHA, if I explain why laughing I would get banned, if you get it say "LOL"

It has to do with the phrase "I can't fire in the hole" :D

I can my w...... wait LOL.

Have'nt you heard? BE is now an elf breeding ground. That is how all of there guns are now "tourny level". And the only way to get even BETTER effiency and range is to put BE Gun Oil w/ Super Elves in your Cocker.

im with Tk when he says that accuracy comes from the right paint/barrel combo. and im also with mykroft when he says that no gun lobs or shoots flatter more than the other. its impossible unless the gun puts backspin like the zbody and the tipp flatlines, like mykroft said above. and as for the closed bolt deal: in another post i read that when in rapid fire a closed bolt acts just as an open bolt does. if u dont see it looks at it this way:

closed bolt: fire,back,forward,fire,back, forward

open bolt: forward,fire,back,forward,fire,back

did u notice that the sequence of fire is the exact same, its just that the closed bolt starts at a differnet place than the open bolt, this is why i say closed bolt does nothing better for accuracy, nor does it project the ball any flatter( ALL MYTHS I TELL U ALL MYTHS, once some of u that say closed bolts are more accurate get some R&D lab tests on paper and post them up here, THEN I MIGHT BELEIVE U!!)

thanks bartleby for the proof, u see people, its even proven that open bolts are even slightly more accurate by the fact that the grouping on the closed was 11.25(average0 and the grouping on the open was 11(average), they used a stingray with the same tank, same barrel same everything except they modified it to turn it into a closed bolt pump by the removal of a certain part( i dont remember which) so its the same gun same paint, except the open was proved more accurate. given that the one ball on the closed bolt was slightly more oval could have done it, but lets face it u closed bolt junkies, THEY ARE BOTH THE EXACT SAME IF U HAVE THE SAME BARREL PAINT SETUP.( by the way for people wondering why im makin such a big deal over this: #1 is that im bored and #2 is because im gettin an angel, and somebody said to me " get the matrix, its like an angel except its more accurate cuz of the closed bolt, the only thing is that its an air hog" thank god i found some proof, because the matrix would be harder to get parts for and fix. People are fairly unfamiliar with them, unlike the ever popular angel. so im stickin with the 2002 angel lcd C+C( the angel is also better looking haha)

The difference between 11 and 11.25 isn't significant enough to really prove anything. If they repeated that experiment, maybe closed bolt would beat open bolt by a small amount. The bottom line, is that the cycling sequence(open vs closed) isn't really relevant to accuracy.

OR,it could be because it has DELRIN bolt tip...while the mags is stainless steel.....

ok, if u read the article that battleby has on that hyperlink on his post, u would find out that the test was done wiht 1 gun and that was a stingray modified to either shoot closed or open by takin out a part in it. so what you are sayin about delrin, thats stupid. as for the 11 to 11.25 i told u that its equal and it could have been that way cuz of one stupid little lopsided ball, they are equal like i said, im just sick of the "closed bolts are better crap"

now, i hate to create controversy....wait no i dont! the nice thing about close bolts is that you have a muchless chance of choppage. why? as stated before the closed bolt is just the return, it doesnt have an air blast propelling the bolt foreward, like on a mag. didnt we figure a mag could cut a carrot? well can a cocker? not likely. that is one thing to consider. if one chops and one dosnt which is going to be more accurate? you gotta say that is one nice feature.

The .25 difference is well within the margin of error for this test. Simply put, in any decent design, whether or not the bolt is closed has absolutely no effect on accuracy. A bad open-bolt design will be less accurate due to unpredictable amounts of blowback affecting velocity stability.

Regulator design, valve design and paint/barrel match alone affect accuracy.

magman007, I guarantee you I could setup a cocker with a metal bolt to cut a carrot, it's all about ccking pressure & speed.

Just wanted to say I'm pretty a mag will not cut a carrot. I can stop the bolt with hardly any presure from my finger. I can try the carrot thing later.:p

really? hm i havnt had the nads to put my finger in the breach, nor have i been crazy enough to. please do try the carrot thing, and if it dents the carrot, it will deff break paint

::drumroll:: presenting! the one the olny, the amazing AGD salad shooter!!!! also known as the SAL-a-MAG

Crazy enough? Stick your finger in there and fire away. All it does is make the bolt stick open and leak. All you do is pus it back to reset it. Not really a crazy idea.

A side note: I don't carry a squeege anymore when I play. I haven't broke in the last 2 cases I've shot. Before that I broke cause I short stroked it (needed to learn the trigger). Hemlock doesn't break with his mag either(he had 2 last week out of 1,300 rds, cause the paint was really old. I don't know why people say mags are blenders, if you shoot it right it will be fine. Most of the people that say they hate mags or say they are blenders is because they have or have seen someone shoot that wasn't shooting right.

heres this debate again... I say mags rule and thats all u gotta know