Just got all my gear back from AGD. Unsatisified with the results.

A few of you may remember a thread I posted in here about a month ago. here's the link, for any interested- https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=48369

Well, I called AGD, and let them know what the problems were. I then boxed up ALL of my AGD products, and sent them up to be fixed. This was right at the end of augost.

First, let me add one thing to the original "problems" not mentioned in my previous post. On my emag, the grip frame was stripped out where the battery pack screw threads in. The result is that you cant tighten the battery pack. . you just slide the screw in the hole, and the battery wobbles (reallly annoying).

So anyway, I send the 3 guns and 2 flatlines off to AGD. I get a phone call(message) from a tech a week later saying that the searlock in the emag was missing, and asking if i would like to have another installed. I called back, and had to leave a message. I asked that the sear lock Pleas NOT be re-installed in the gun. (it's position results in me accidentally puting the gun on safe alot.) Another week and a half later, I get the first of my flatlines back. I was pretty excited, yet kinda bummed out b/c I didnt have any guns to test it on. Several days afterword, I get a phone call from the same tech. He informed me that all the guns had been repaired, and that there were some non-warranty charges I needed to take care of. I expected this (especially thinking that the whole trigger frame may have had to be replaced due to the trigger pin problem and stripped battery screw area problem.) He proceded to give me the list of parts and charges. This did not include a new grip frame. I asked him about those 2 problems mentioned above, and he said everything was fine and taken care of. I wound up having to get about 80 bux worth of stuff for the three guns.(the biggie turned out to be a new emag charger.) I happily paid for everything and he told me that the guns would be on their way soon. About half a week later the second flatline shows up. Still happy, still want guns to be able to check everything out.

This past friday UPS delivered my guns. I was SOOO excited. later that afternoon, i start putting everything back together. . . tanks on guns, ect. Then i start testing things out, and generally looking the guns over. I read over the repair sheets on what had to be fixed, and was pretty satisifed with what I saw. Then I notice that the battery pack is still wobbling- - I take it off and look down into the threads in the frame. . . . Still stripped. So, I called AGD and talked to the tech that had done the repair work. I asked him why the stripped area on the frame had not been fixed. He replied by saying that he was had not realized that anything was wrong with it. (this problem was listed on the repair sheet- - but not as a problem that was fixed.) Well, he then says that maybe the easiest thing for me would just be to take the gun to world cup, and have the guys look at it there. we talked for a bit longer, and I decided that i would look into beiing able to get to orlando and take care of everything there.

After the phone conversation, I noticed the trigger. . . the trigger pin that I had 'rigged' up by cutting it short was still in place. . . The trigger every now and then dosent want to fire in E-mode if there is any sideways pressure (to the left) on it. This was why I wanted a new trigger pin installed. This problem was also mentioned on the repair sheet, but wasn't fixed.

I attached one of my flatlines and started testing how the gun shot. Pretty nice, except for the E- mode. I can shoot just as fast on one of our rental tippmans as i can on e-mode. (and sustain that ROF on the pro-carbine eaisier.) So, I flipped it to hybrid and rolled away. Very nice, very consistent. However, I 'felt' like i was running the gun at it's max ROF (yes, i know that may sound a little absurd.) I do not have access to the equipment to test my ROF on the emag, but it DEFINITLY feels slower than I could shoot with my angel. FYI, according to the BPS counter on my old angel, I hit 15bps several times.
This felt more like 11-13, in hybrid mode. MAybe i could go faster in E mode, but not the way it's set up right now.

Afterwards, I put the emag setup up with about 1500psi in the flatline tank, with the tank turned off.
The next day, there was no pressure in the tank. I re-filled up to 3k, shot it a couple times, listened for leaks (no audible leaks), turned the tank off and went to work.
This morning when i went in, same thing. Tanks' bone dry.

Now, on too flatline #2.

This one was having some weird, severe problems with shootdown. (well, BOTH tanks were. .) I set this tank up on one of my retromags and gassed it up. Started shooting, and the problem is still there. If i shoot any faster than about 5 shots per second, i start starving the tank, resulting in some nasty sounds and drop off in the gun.

Now, the first retromag.

This is the gun that I attached Flatling #2 to. There were a coupole things that had to be fixed on theis valve, and were. however, when i gassed the gun up, it now leaks from the on/off area VERY faintly. The leak comes to a slow stop if you fire the gun and hold the trigger down, but starts back as soon as you let go of the trigger. I tried oil, as well as examining the on/off o-rings. Everything was SUPPOSEDLY replaced, and I have no reason to think otherwise, except that the on/off top o-ring dosent look very new at all. Maybe that just a result of oil though. Don't know whats causing this one.

Retromag #2 (my z-grip mag) seems to be working fine. well, that is after i gassed it up the first time and saw that the new sear that had been installed had the trigger rod just BARELY sticking out from the frame. . this cause the gun to be almost INSTANTLY short-strokable. Another phone call to the tech that did the work resulted in my legnthing the trigger rod so the gun would fully cycle. (yeah, i know. . . . . I had never legnthened a trigger rod before in my life- -- only shortned what other people had legnthened.) now, the gun STILL seemes VERY easy to short stroke, STILL has pretty bad reactivity (one of the original problems and why i sent it in to AGD). Now, I know that some of this is probably due to the fact that the flatline tank i use on this gun still has BAD recharge problems. However, it's all rather frustrating, dont' you think? I think I've included everything here. . if i discover somthing i've forgotten, i will include it later.


In summary, here's the basics.

1. I sent 3 markers and 2 air systems to AGD for repair.

2. MANY things WERE fixed on the products, and for that I am very grateful.

3. Upon return, EVERY product had either unfixed problems, or in 2 cases, NEW problems.

4. One month and $120 after deciding to send my stuff in to be fixed, Ive still got problems with everything. (*$80 for parts, and $40 for shipping UPS ground insured for $2000.)

I hope that when I call AGD monday, everything can be taken care of.

a little bummed out at the moment,

Carl

I can attest to some of his stuff being faulty as I have seen it with my own eyes. I have to be honest, I'm pretty dissappointed. I don't know if it's the tech at fault or whatever, I won't point fingers, but Carl paid $120 in all to have his guns and tanks repaired. He said it well enough himself that every single thing he got back had something wrong with it, and in 2 cases new problems? What is with that? If you ask me this needs to be taken care of ASAP.

Did you call AGD today and get everything straightened out? Keep us updated, but I have a feeling AGD will help you out and everything will be in great working order soon enough.

And, not to take over this thread or anything, but where in Mobile do you guys play...?

DaosBeoulve, In answer to your question, Xtreme Paintball. I am the assistant manager up there. We'd love for you to come out and play with us sometime. www.xpb.us

Today i got ahold of Jon at AGD. I told him what had happened. He had me send him a detailed email covering each problem with each item. That's all I have in updates right now. Ill post more as it happens. Im still pretty confident that everything will be made well. I just wish that It had not happened this way in the firt place.


Carl

Alright, here's an update for anyone that's interested.

After talking to jon on the phone, and working on the guns myself for a bit, I found that the internal leak comming from one of my retrtomags was due to a bad on/off bottom oring. (the little one inside the brass assembly.) So, that gun is all fixed and works fine now.

The Z-grip gun.
Wound up having to legnthen the trigger rod a little bit just so the trigger would depress it all the way.
Works fine now.

The Emag.
This one has to go back to AGD. The stripped part of the trigger frame and the messed up trigger pin (In my opinion) would be most eaisly fixed by just changing out the trigger frame. However, It's not so easy for me to get a new emag trigger frame for free- - - So, I have to send the gun BACK in to AGD. Hopefully this will get fixed the second time around.

The flatlines.

Both of them DEFINITLY do not work right. The gradual loss of tank pressure from the first one is no longer occuring. (It is DEFINITLY possible that I made the mistake there, and really did leave the tank on or somthing like that. . )

However, Both of them experience shootdown and crappy recharge. One of them about 2 times worse than the other.

If I can get ahold of some reg. seat o-rings and Reg. piston o-rings Im going to try to see if I can repair it myself. If that dosent work, It'll be back off to AGD with BOTH of my nitrogen systems.

On a more positive note, yesterday I put someone elses screw in system into my Retro Z-grip to make sure it was my air systems. . . Yeah- - The gun totally ROCKED. with an input of 800. I would prefer it to be 900, but i'll have to wait. :mad:

Probably not the case, but double check to make sure that your spring packs aren't put in backwards in your Flatlines. Take a look at my thread and you'll see how the spring pack should be oriented. Also, double check that your reg. body is fully tightened. I stick an allen wrench in one of the four holes in the reg. body and tighten it. Reg. seat o-rings are on/off top urethane o-rings for RT's. So if you have an RT parts kit, you should have some of those.

https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=14220

Well, I played tonight (team practice). Earlier this afternoon I took apart one of the flatlines and replaced the reg. seat and piston 0-ring. My rig was playable- - - but dropoff was pretty terrible and consistency during any thing that resembled rapid fire was embarassing.

BlackVCG, I had already printed off your flatline maintence post- - - intending to take it up to the shop with me to use as a reference as I worked on the Reg. . . and then I promptly left it sitting on the printer. lol.

I had not even thought about checking to see if the reg body was tightened. Will do that one first thing tomorrow afternoon.

Overall, the system seemed to perform a little bit better since I worked on it. That is to say that now I can pop off 2 shots rapid fire- - - with noticable dropoff on the second shot, before the tank starves the gun and lvl. 10 kicks in on shot number 3. That IS an improvement over yesterday when I could not even get shot number 2 to fire.


BlackVCG, you seem to know your way around the flatline pretty well. How common is this problem of slow recharge/ poor consistency? How much is the output pressure supposed to vary as the tank's pressure drops? (what I mean is, If I set my output at 900 psi when the tank is full at 3k, what should the output be when the tank pressure reaches 1100? Conversly, tonight while messing with the system, I set my output pressure to about 900 while the tank pressure was at about 2000. I went to top the tank off, and the output soared up to 1200, and the reg started to leak from the adjusting hole. Is this normal?)

finally, this last question is more for personal reassurance more than anything else. The flatline system is considered a high-performance, high rate of recharge, high consistency air system, right? It just seems that every time I turn around for the past couple of weeks I'm seeing problems with them. Both of mine are messed up, I have a customer with the same problem who is looking to me to get it fixed, and i have a friend with a 4500 flatline with the SAME problem that has just sent his in to AGD. Honestly, Is the air system that good? CAN it relaibly keep up with the demands of my Emag and two Retromags? Or do I need to sell them off and go with somthing else. . . when I hooked up the PMI screw in to the retromag yesterday, I about had a heart attack. . . I've NEVER had my retromags shoot that good. Needless to say, the whole thing is kind of discouraging, and I am tempted to stray from my current postion of "AGD products exclusively".

Thanks for the suggestions so far, and I will try them tomorrow. I will probably be sending 1 tank at a time BACK in to AGD if I cant sort this out on my own.


Carl

First of all, just to make sure, neither of these Flatlines are below serial number 800, right?

With that out of the way, here's what can cause slow recharge.

- Collapsed on/off o-ring

- Collapsed reg. seat o-ring

- Sticky piston

- Backwards spring pack

- Clogged outlet ports

- Stuck safety ball

To replace the on/off o-ring, you need to take out the on/off shaft. The system must be completely drained first. Once that's out, you'll see a brass piece in the side of the hole closer to the tank. Drop out that piece. Then, you need to use a fine point curved dental pick to pull out the on/off o-ring that is shoved back in that hole. The other way to get it out is to hook another air system up to the fill nipple of the Flatline you're servicing and turn on the other air system really quick and then back off. Be sure to hold a towel over both ends of the on/off shaft hole. This will dislodge the on/off o-ring and blow it out of the hole. Replace that o-ring with an RT on/off top o-ring.

Reg. seat o-ring is simple to replace and is same o-ring as the RT on/off o-ring.

If the piston is sticky, you'll have erratic output and bad flow rate. Pull the piston out and clean out the inside of the reg. body with a q-tip and some rubbing alcohol. Make sure the piston o-ring is not hard/sticky. Oil the o-ring and body of the piston.

The spring packs can be put in backwards and if it is, you'll have horrible shootdown. Make sure that the washer end of the spring pack is facing towards the piston.

The two outlet ports for the double outlet setup on the Flatline are really small. Make sure that those are completely clean of any teflon tape/dirt that could get caught in them.

I've never seen a safety ball cause a problem, but I guess it's possible. Make sure that the silver ball bearing can rattle around. If it's stuck up against the hole that directs the air to the piston, it will cut off the flow. The hole point of the safety ball is to prevent the system from dumping 3K psi out that hole if you take off the reg. body with a full tank and decide to turn it on like most curious morons like to do.

With all of that covered, I'll say from an unbiased standpoint that the Flatline is the best system out there. I have 3 Flatlines (Two 4.5K's and One 3K). I've never had any problems with them, except for my prototype 4.5K having the design problems that were fixed by updates which are in all of the new Pewter Flatlines. I do constant 20+bps tests with my 4.5K FL on my E-Mag and it doesn't skip a beat. I believe that the number one killer of ALL air systems is not using a fill nipple cap and getting dirt in the fill nipple during a game and then filling it up, which blows all that dirt into the reg.

Every problem can be fixed. I've yet to find something I can't fix and I can guarantee I'd be able to fix your problems, but the only problem right now is that my AGD service parts are 400 miles away from me. I'll do whatever it takes to help you fix it over the i-net so you don't have to send it back and can get out and play some ball.

All of the flatlines in question are above SN# 800


BlackVCG,

You da man.

That being said, here's what Im gonna do. First off, I am printing out both of your posts for me in this thread, and putting those with the Flatline maintence thread I already have a papaer copy of.

Next, Im ordering a couple Flatline parts kits from AGD. I have some RT parts kits I can use in the shop, however, they are from some other company (who ever makes the "first aid kits" )-- - and while trying to use one of the on/off top orings in my retromag the other day that o-ring made the GUN recharge about as fast as molasses flowing uphill during winter.

As soon as I get the parts in, I will take down the systems completely. Go through everything with a fine toothed comb (i.e. dental pick), and check for any residual teflon tape. I dont' use the stuff anymore, but I used to. Then, I am going to go straight down your list and get to the bottom of this problem.


I have never heard any saftey ball rattling around inside at anytime - - - filled or empty. So, I think That MAY be part of the problem.

Hopefully by mid next week I will have all this stuff sorted out. The customer I have with the same problem will be happy to hear all of this too.


Once again, thank you for the info. I will let you know how it all turns out.


Carl

Heck, let me know too. When you figure it out I'll send you my Flatline for repairs.;)

lol. How long have you had your 4500 for?
Do you still have the centerflag for a backup?

I have the parts on the way now (not to mention ANOTHER level 10 kit. :) )

Everything should be here on tuesday. I'll let know how it all goes probably tuesday night.

I got it a few months ago. But it never worked right. I replaced the reg seat twice and a few other o-rings but it still creeps and the recharge blows.

I also bought a used 300 Flatline for a back-up (good timing) It should be here tomorrow. I got rid of the Dynaflow because the reg housing cracked and it was due for a Hydro in a few months. It was going to be more than it was worth to fix.

You guys need an alternate for Mardi Gras?:D

Been awhile since I've checked this thread, good to know you got the retromags working! Good luck with the Flatlines. Sorry for the short post ... I'll talk to you tomorrow when I go up there and ref. Load ... you need to come down here sometime. We could have a really miniature AO meet :)

Well I'm definately coming down for Mardi Gras and I want to come down early and play Carl's field. I feel a little lost without Carl reffing me.;) Sudden urges to pull my mask off in mid-game.

Come down soon :). They are having team practices about every thursday we could scrimmage vs. Team Xtreme Paintball. Give it some thought :).

Ok, I had my warm-up on flatline re-building today. My customer was in earlier today. Even though I didnt have the parts kits in yet, I offered to go ahead and take down his reg. and give it a good cleaning, and replace what parts I could find so hopefully he would have a system that he could at least play with tomorrow.

His had the WORST shoot down of all 3 flatlines in question. I Disassembled the whole reg. Changed out the On/off oring, the 2 o-rings on the shaft, the reg seat, the reg piston o-ring, and cleaned the mess out of the whole system. Im sure you can imagine what I found inside. . . it was absolutely FILTHY. Removal of old teflon tape and dried crusty locktite from the threads was the most time consuming, while the crusty corrosion -looking stuff on the on/off shaft coming in second.

All things said and done, The system works MUCH better. On his single trigger standard mag, It seems flawless. On my retromags, it seems just a little bit slow. Here's what I think the remaining problems are. (BlackVCG, your comments on the following are highly valued)




1. The o-rings that I had to put in. They came from an off brand RT parts kit. I had one of these o-rings completely jam up my retromag - - - so I do believe they may be the remaining problem.

2. What looks like the regulator spring. (visible through the small holes behind the High pressure gauge and the fill nipple)

While cleaning off tape and locktite with a dental pick, Inoticed that there was a little bit of crud in the spring area. I'm sure that there is- - - as dirty as the fill nipple area was, Im sure this junk is all inside the tank, and through that part of the regulator. Is it possible that this spring could need replacement? I am almost positive that It could benifit from a good cleaning.

From the looks of it, I cant get in to that area and clean the spring without removing teh whole regulator from the tank. Is that correct? Additionally, (other than having the tank completely drained) what procedures should I use to remove the regulator from the bottle? I have worked extensivly of CO2 bottles and valve removal/ replacement- - - but I have not taken a reg off of a HPA bottle yet.

I assume the process would be similar, but Assuming can be a very bad thing - - - that's why Im asking questions here first. I am thinking that the reg is screwed into the bottle with the assistance of an o-ring and some red locktite.

Usually, a couple strap wrenches are what I need to separate a c02 valve from the tank. Same process here?

What can I expect to see on the inside? How will I be able to get to the spring? What parts may need replacement?

Finally, I am assuming that a replacement of the tank o-ring, removal of old red locktite from the threads AND from the bottle,(what will be the best way to clean out the inside of the bottle?) re-application of the aforementioned locktite, firm re-screwing, and a 24 hr setting period prior to a very cautious filling to a low pressure to test for leaks is the best way to go about putting the reg. back on the tank.


I feel confident in my ability to do this. I have re-built regulators on other HPA systems before with good results, and have lots of experience removing and replacing valves on C02 tanks. However, I always ask for advice of others that have done this procedure successfully BEFORE I attempt it myself.

any hints or things to look out for are greatly appreciated.


Carl

Carl-

First of all, good to see you're taking the time to do this on your own. It's the only way to learn how to do things yourself so down the road you can take care of problems when they arise.

You are correct, in order to take out the spring and the on/off valve you need to unscrew the reg. from the tank. The easiest way for you to do this is use a strap wrench on the tank and a 1/8" NPT fitting welded onto a hardened steel rod. Use that rod as a breaker bar, thread it into one of the ports and break the reg. loose. Be SURE to make an alignment mark on the neck of the tank so you know how far you need to torque it when you put it back on. I use the burst disk nut as the alignment on the reg. and make a mark on the tank neck that is in the center of the burst disk nut.

There is NO thread sealer used on the reg. threads. Don't put any on when you put it back on. As long as there's some grease/oil on the reg o-ring and it's properly torqued, it will be fine.

Once it's off, you'll see an internal C-Clip from the back side and a star tooth washer. Take out the C-Clip and the washer and spring will drop out. You might need to tap the on/off valve out from the front side since the o-ring holds it in.

Clean off all the parts, clean out the inside housing of the reg. neck and then reassemble it. It would be a good idea to wait until you get your factory AGD parts so you can replace the on/off o-ring with a factory part when you reassemble it. Just blow out the tank with air from a regular 150psi air compressor. Don't try to wash it out.

Once you get it fully cleaned out, and replace all the o-rings with AGD ones, it will be working fine.

Ok, yesterday I got the flatline parts kits in from AGD and proceded to rebuild the regulators myself. I did both of my flatlines yesterday afternoon. It took me about 5 hours total. Each regulaor was removed from the bottle, COMPLETELY cleaned inside and out, and ALL seals replaced.


Before i get in to the other details, let me point out somthing weird about the flatline parts kits.

First off, the o-ring used for the reg. seat is the same as the one used in the on/off. This was verified when I broke down the regs. Both of the o-rings were the same.

The parts kit only contained one of these o-rings. In place of the other one, It included a "small o-ring" (thats what the part list said.) looks like the lil' guy from inside the R/T on/off brass peice.

This o-ring dose not fit anywhere in the system. First I thought there was a mistake- - -that the 2 idential o-rings i took out of the reg was wrong. . that one of them should have been the "small o-ring.". Nope. The only place where the "small 0-ring" could go is on the reg seat. It will fit, and It actually LOOKs like a better fit than the bigger one that goes there. lol however, it dosent work. On the initial gas up for that one, using that Small o-ring promptly caused me to blow my Output pressure gauge.

I replaced with another larger one, and everything was cool. That kind of made me uneasy, that I had a FACTORY parts kit, with a part left over, that looks like it didnt fit in the system.

Well, actually 2 parts that didnt fit in the system. The C-clip included in the parts kits (remember I ordered 3) is much larger than the one in the tanks. The new ones wont fit. No biggie, It just needed cleaning, not replacing.


Interestingly enough, This was the first time these regulators had been opened up since I got them back from AGD- - and they were FILTHY inside. It looked like the tech that was working on them for me just serviced the low pressure side of the system. The on/off shaft was NASTY looking it was so dirty, as well as the spring and all that fun stuff on the tank side of the system.

Each tank took me a little over 2 hrs to rebuild.

Total, I went through about 50-60 q-tips, 30 or so paper towels, and about 4 oz. of rubbing alcohol and water mix.


After rebuild, my initial testing shows the tanks working FLAWLESSLY. I put each tank onto my emag, flipped it to hybrid, put the input pressure to about 900, and proceded to hammer the crap out of the trigger. NO DROPOFF. Problems fixed. On an additional note, I had my manager take a run on the emag trigger. This was the closest thing that he had shot to a 'normal' functioning emag (still have to send the Emag back in. . ) Previously he always gave me crap about being a mag shooter. Kept saying the emag was a brick. And, he thought the trigger on it sucked before (when it turned out the tank was just sucking terribly.)
Well, i had him take a walk on it. His jaw hit the floor, and he started laughing. Then, he said that he just might have to get one of these things. - - -What you have to realize is that this is like a "moses parting the red sea" kinda miracle for him to say that. HEHEHEHE. i was happy.



So, back to the point of this thread. Here's the status of all the problems listed in the initial post, and what has fixed the problems.
Remember, when this thread was started, All this equipment had JUST come out of the box- - - from being serviced from AGD. And ALL of it had problems.

Flatline tanks.
- - - problem fixed myself. Cost me 2 parts kits, and about 5 hours for me to rebuild and service both systems. It was noted that the systems were EXTREMELY dirty, and looked like they had not been serviced at all.


Retromag#1.
small internal leak problem fixed myself.
Turns out an on/off oring was the culprit. I opened it up, and the o-ring looked like it had been there a while. Aparently not replaced when it went in to AGD. Poped a new one in and she shoots fine.

Retromag #2. (z-grip)
Trigger rod was actually too short when I got it back. (they put a new sear in, and the rod just BARELY stuck out of the frame.)
Fixed myself. DID check with AGD about unscrewing the trigger rod just a bit. Gun functions fine now.

Emag.
The only way I can fix this myself is to get a new trigger frame for the gun. Unfortunately, I dont think I can get a new one for less that too much money. lol.

This one is going to be sent BACK to AGD. This time I'm going to remove the trigger pin (which is supposed to be replaced) so it's not overlooked again. I am also going to stick a post-it note on the threads that are stripped out, so that cant be overlooked.
I just wish there was some way for me to get a new trigger frame for cheap so I could do it myself.




I still love AGD products, however I have come to the conclusion that if I want somthing done right, I need to learn how to do it myself. Only rely on someone else to fix it as a LAST resort.


Happy that His gear is 99% back to where it should be,

Carl

That's really great to hear :) I got a used flatline a little while ago an just sent it off to be serviced due to a busted HP gauge and a few odd leaks.

I'll have to get a FLatline parts kit and keep it in my gearbag just in case :)

I bought a set of belt/grip wrenches a while ago to take apart an apoc. system i had (traded for the Flatline), and it looks like they may get to be used again :)

Oh, and I noticed while I'm shooting, the LP Output gauge sometimes takes a sec. to go back to the pressure it was origeonally at.

...does that mean that there's drop-off? Because I don't seem to notice it in rapid-fire (10+bps).

Well, the output gauge taking a second to go all the way up is a symptom, however it could just be due to a faulty gauge. If you can hammer on the trigger and there is no dropoff in shots (also noted by a distinct change in the sound of the gun firing) I'd just leave it alone for now.