Mech only games

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Originally Posted by Freedy500

Not X-valves though. And I was pretty sure that would cause damage to your marker unless if it is made mainly for CO2 or else the electronics and operation of it would get damaged. I am pretty sure but would not mind if corrected.

Until I find out otherwise I would say feel free to use CO2 and ruin your high end electro.

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AKA, IIRC, said that an anti-siphon CO2 tank attached to a Palmers stabilizer was just acceptable to use in a Viking. This is why you have to actually write rules to accomplish what you mean to accomplish because otherwise someone will "side step" what you were trying to do with a creative solution. I would guess the electro-Blazer would have no issue

For the record the old PSP and NPPL rules required that loaders have some gravity portion in them - the warp was questionable if it met the rules requirements. For some reason the HALO was given a pass.

damn loop-holes :(

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Originally Posted by Justus

It started off as simply "mech only", with no batteries even for the hopper. When I pointed out that a qloaded X-valve Mag would still have an absurdly high rate of fire (and even posted a video to prove it), you changed the rules to include "no excessively reactive trigger". I've got a pneumag in the works, just need the time and cash to put together the remaining parts. They're really not as uncommon as you make them out to be. Sure, qloaders are uncommon right now, but that's because people have always been free to use battery-powered hoppers that are much easier to set up and use. But my point is that if you create a game whereby a certain set of equipment has the advantage, then people will build it as it becomes their priority. As that happens, I can foresee another rule revision to exclude spring loaded or pneumatic hoppers and triggers. Otherwise, the rules really have no purpose if the goal is to limit ROF.

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That’s my point. The number of Q-Loaded pneumags out running in the wild, as far as I can tell, is currently: 0.5. The half of one that you haven’t even finished yet. It will take some amount of tinkering and tweaking, and I’m betting when you field that thing, it won’t make that much a difference because there is a certain amount of *operator skill* that’s still necessary to make it work out in-game.

If I were running the game, I’d be all for you bringing that gun.

Once you’ve finished it.

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Originally Posted by Justus

So the goal did change. First it was mech only to limit ROF. Now it's to simply play without batteries or RT triggers.

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Yes, this “started off as mech only”. Mech only means without batteries. Goal didn’t change. Goal started out as: mech only, and it ended up as: mech only. There are some effects that I’ve tried to outline, but they’re not sinking in so it’s simplest to say: mech only means no batteries. How I am perceived as vacillating, I have no idea. Mech only. Real simple.

The non-bouncing RT rule has been in place for a long, long time. I find it shameful that people actually have to be reminded of it. The old timers around here remember it. Shameful.

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Originally Posted by Justus

You want to have a game where the only purpose is to play without batteries and RT triggers, that's fine. I'm just pointing out the pitfalls and asking the question, "with xyz setup, what's actually changed about the gameplay?" If nothing... then what's the point of telling someone else what they can or can't play with?

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And that’s part of the problem. You perceive zero change in gameplay. And I think that is simply a reflection of the way you play. And it’s not something someone else will be able to explain to you.

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Originally Posted by Justus

I run a field where the rentals are shake & bake Alpha Blacks, and I ran an A5 marker before I got into Mags. I still have a 98 Custom in my gearbag as a backup/loaner, and some games I'll roll out with nothing but my TPX. So, yeah, I kinda am one of them.

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Great, excellent. So as one of these operators, do you personally feel pasted/cheated when you step out into a game where someone else has an overwhelming advantage? If not, why would you think someone else would feel the same way?

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Originally Posted by Justus

If I use my ETac rather than my pump or TPX, I have it set at 10 to 12 bps limit, semi auto, and I honestly don't shoot any faster than the blowbacks - primarily because I've never been good at walking the trigger

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There’s that *operator skill* component I keep referring to. If you can’t walk an electro, good luck successfully walking a pneu. Please, bring forth the Q-Loaded pneumag for all to witness, in-game.

Once you’ve finished it.

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Originally Posted by Justus

Because I run a field it's my first priority to make sure the walk-ons have fun and are excited about returning to play again. If you're trying to insinuate that I shoot ropes on people with rental markers simply because I have the possibility of a ROF advantage, think again.

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Then... why... would you... post... a video of yourself actually doing so?

And if you wouldn’t do it (despite video evidence), why would you assume someone else would?

I mean, in the context where bunch of guys are going, “Hey, let’s all switch to mech and play a few games”, whipping out a video of you hunkered in the back of what appears to be a rec game ripping a string into a bunch of nothing isn’t exactly a highlight. There’s just something very … I don’t even know what the right word for this is.

If I had a video of myself doing that, I would quietly bury it somewhere where nobody would ever find it.

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Originally Posted by Justus

And no, when I warned about the huge playing-field gap that will result from your proposed rules, I wasn't describing anything remotely like recball, which has players at both extremes and also dispersed throughout the middle of the ROF spectrum because they all have the ability to choose what equipment setups they want to use.

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So the huge gap in a mech-only game would be larger than the huge gap in a recball game where everything else is allowed.

Uhh....

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Originally Posted by Justus

Yeah, of course this is a good point, aside from the implication that a pneumag is like a unicorn. I mean, c'mon, you can buy a bolt-on sleeper frame pretty easily if you just look in the BST from time to time. And you don't even need a pneumag. A finely tuned ULT is darn near walkable by itself.

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You are absolutely right! You sure can! Show us how damn near overpowering a damn near walkable ULT is, in game.

Once you’ve finished it.

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Originally Posted by Justus

I don't "want my own game", I'm simply trying to further the discussion on some possible alternate game formats and what I believe will work, and what I believe will ultimately not do enough to make any noticeable difference.

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Great, you’ve stated your *beliefs*.

Now let’s validate them.

Meh, the rants are getting too long and off focus. Edited this post out in an effort to stop the landslide. Do whatever you feel will work, GoatBoy, and good luck with it. I sincerely hope people will end up playing within the spirit of your proposed rules.

wow
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...his_thread.jpg

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Originally Posted by Justus

Yeah sure, let's do that. If you want a game that has a limited rate of fire, then just make a rule limiting the rate of fire. Anyone shooting more than X bps is cheating. It's quite simple and doesn't lead to loopholes. Sounds pretty valid to me. I haven't heard of any ways to exploit the rules to gain a legal advantage. You got anything?

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How do you enforce a ROF cap on a mechanical marker? Just because player A can get it to do 15BPS does not mean player B or the ref has a chance. I think this is a major flaw in your reasoning

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Originally Posted by Lohman446

How do you enforce a ROF cap on a mechanical marker? Just because player A can get it to do 15BPS does not mean player B or the ref has a chance. I think this is a major flaw in your reasoning

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Yeah, enforcement of the rule is an issue that would need to be hammered out. How do they enforce the ROF cap in PSP tournaments? I'd say start there, and work something out.

But the issue of enforcement isn't a major flaw in my reasoning, because it's already being done (see the aforementioned PSP tournament example). A flaw in the reasoning would have to be something that a player could legally exploit to gain an advantage.

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Originally Posted by BTAutoMag

wow
[IMG]X[/IMG]

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Yeah man. I feel ya. :cheers:

wow. And I thought my rants could get long. Sorry I am just giving up on this thread. To much to read and I am very lazy :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:

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Originally Posted by Justus

Yeah, enforcement of the rule is an issue that would need to be hammered out. How do they enforce the ROF cap in PSP tournaments? I'd say start there, and work something out.

But the issue of enforcement isn't a major flaw in my reasoning, because it's already being done (see the aforementioned PSP tournament example). A flaw in the reasoning would have to be something that a player could legally exploit to gain an advantage.

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The major difference is that legally set PSP ramping markers the ROF can be attained by virtually anyone. So a ref can readily check it. In a mech there is no software limiting it so a player may attain ROF a ref is not able to duplicate. Or a piano playing ref might disqualify every marker handed him.

In NPPL back when the RT came out, they used adjustable tank regs and NPPL limited them to 600psi input. That pretty much took care of crazy RT bounce.

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Originally Posted by Lohman446

The major difference is that legally set PSP ramping markers the ROF can be attained by virtually anyone. So a ref can readily check it. In a mech there is no software limiting it so a player may attain ROF a ref is not able to duplicate. Or a piano playing ref might disqualify every marker handed him.

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Yeah, but I said to just make a rule limiting ROF, not make a mech-only rule. Maybe this means that mechs aren't allowed since there's no way of limiting the ROF?

Or, because there's no way of limiting the ROF on a mech, go ahead and allow it but disallow trigger bounce and also require mechs to have a certain trigger pull weight to be classified as legal. It's not a perfect rule, but probably better than eliminating all mech-only markers.

Any time the goal is to limit ROF, there's going to need to be multiple rules to achieve that and still allow the widest array of equipment choices. And this enforcement problem actually illustrates my point better, too - if the goal is to limit the ROF, then eliminating electros from participation is wholly unnecessary because it's actually easier to limit the ROF on an electro than it is a mech.

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Originally Posted by Shane-O-Mac

In NPPL back when the RT came out, they used adjustable tank regs and NPPL limited them to 600psi input. That pretty much took care of crazy RT bounce.

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And probably most Automags. None of my Mags will even operate that low.

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Originally Posted by Justus

Yeah, but I said to just make a rule limiting ROF, not make a mech-only rule. Maybe this means that mechs aren't allowed since there's no way of limiting the ROF?

Or, because there's no way of limiting the ROF on a mech, go ahead and allow it but disallow trigger bounce and also require mechs to have a certain trigger pull weight to be classified as legal. It's not a perfect rule, but probably better than eliminating all mech-only markers.

Any time the goal is to limit ROF, there's going to need to be multiple rules to achieve that and still allow the widest array of equipment choices. And this enforcement problem actually illustrates my point better, too - if the goal is to limit the ROF, then eliminating electros from participation is wholly unnecessary because it's actually easier to limit the ROF on an electro than it is a mech.

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Haven't you just effectively "created" the tournaments that are readily available then?

If I want to go to an electro ROF limited tournament there are a tremendous amount to pick from.

I'm now lost to what your point was

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Originally Posted by Lohman446

Haven't you just effectively "created" the tournaments that are readily available then?

If I want to go to an electro ROF limited tournament there are a tremendous amount to pick from.

I'm now lost to what your point was

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My point was that the idea of going "mech only" as a way to really limit down the ROF is seriously flawed. A simply "mech only" rule will not work to limit the ROF. If you want to honestly limit the ROF, then it's actually much easier to do with electros.

As for the ample amounts of tournaments that are already available, I was thinking that the goal was to get the ROF down lower than 12.5 bps with ramping. Make the rule 8 bps, no ramping. Make it whatever you want. Just don't think that having a "mech only" rule will solve the problem of ROF.

I guess when you get down to it, my point was to not have a silver bullet answer; it was to point out the problem with the "mech only" proposition. I have never been a proponent of anything other than saying "that (mech only) won't work to meet the goal (lower ROF)."

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EDIT: When looking back over the thread, here's where I think it started:

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Originally Posted by Lohman446

What would mech only games do? They would be somewhere between "open pump" and "open". I doubt anyone would notice the difference in game play or format. We would play the exact same game with different equipment. Same tactics, same strategies, just different markers.

What are my thoughts on this matter? Limit paint by... *gasp* limiting paint.

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My response: "Yeah, I agree"

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Originally Posted by GoatBoy

I do not believe in a paint limit; if someone wants to strap 2 cases onto their back, then by all means let them. The amount of paint someone is carrying has never concerned me, only the effective ROF he can achieve. Mech-only *will* limit this.

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My response: "No, it won't"

Honestly i think this is a lot easier to solve than you all make it out to be. Eliminate ramping. electro mech makes no difference one pull one fire. I have no issue with high rates of fire as long as it is accomplished by player skill not the programing on the guns bored. And pretty much all electros have a uncapped or capped semi auto mode.

The ideal of limited ammo i feel is intriguing as well hopper ball would offer a very different style/tactics of play.

And i also understand the premis of a all mech game for pure nostalgia point. But with guns like the newly coming GOG Enmey, and Tippmans Crossover (without a batt in mech mode), or the Tippmann Phenom i think you would not see the nostalgia you looking for. A best bet would be a limit on year of manufacture.

Another game i would love to see is just a big game cocker vs mag game.


I still play pump almost every time i play regardless who i playing against and what they shooting. I get shot out more than some but i still get out get a few eliminations and have a blast.

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Originally Posted by Justus

My point was that the idea of going "mech only" as a way to really limit down the ROF is seriously flawed. A simply "mech only" rule will not work to limit the ROF. If you want to honestly limit the ROF, then it's actually much easier to do with electros.

As for the ample amounts of tournaments that are already available, I was thinking that the goal was to get the ROF down lower than 12.5 bps with ramping. Make the rule 8 bps, no ramping. Make it whatever you want. Just don't think that having a "mech only" rule will solve the problem of ROF.

I guess when you get down to it, my point was to not have a silver bullet answer; it was to point out the problem with the "mech only" proposition. I have never been a proponent of anything other than saying "that (mech only) won't work to meet the goal (lower ROF)."

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I think we just got turned around somewhere in the discussion. I think if we are attempting to limit paint instituting a paint limit (per player, per team, per tournament, per game, whatever) would be a lot easier (especially to enforce) then instituting a ROF cap.

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Originally Posted by Lohman446

I think we just got turned around somewhere in the discussion. I think if we are attempting to limit paint instituting a paint limit (per player, per team, per tournament, per game, whatever) would be a lot easier (especially to enforce) then instituting a ROF cap.

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That's very true and I agree it would be much easier. It would probably even have the total effect of toning down the overall ROF on each game, as teams have to deal with the strategy of making most of their shots count for something. Of course, that's just a nice byproduct and not necessarily a goal, which makes the enforcement issue (when it comes to ROF) go away.

What would it take to get the gameplay level changed? An average of 200 rounds per player, distributed among a team however they feel necessary? That would be like a souped-up version of hopperball.

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Originally Posted by Justus

That's very true and I agree it would be much easier. It would probably even have the total effect of toning down the overall ROF on each game, as teams have to deal with the strategy of making most of their shots count for something. Of course, that's just a nice byproduct and not necessarily a goal, which makes the enforcement issue (when it comes to ROF) go away.

What would it take to get the gameplay level changed? An average of 200 rounds per player, distributed among a team however they feel necessary? That would be like a souped-up version of hopperball.

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200, 400, 600? I'm not sure. I don't think we have to go down to the point of a single hoppers worth per player (be interesting though to see teams exploit that by giving the front guys 20 rounds or something freeing up a pod for the back players).

I don't know at what number it would start to influence game play but it would be something worth toying with. When I used to play tournaments I shot very little paint compared to others but going out with less than two pods made me feel like I was going to run out at any moment (though I seldom used the second one). This was in the era of a 15BPS ROF cap. Some of my back players would carry a case or very close to it.

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Originally Posted by Lohman446

200, 400, 600? I'm not sure. I don't think we have to go down to the point of a single hoppers worth per player (be interesting though to see teams exploit that by giving the front guys 20 rounds or something freeing up a pod for the back players).

I don't know at what number it would start to influence game play but it would be something worth toying with. When I used to play tournaments I shot very little paint compared to others but going out with less than two pods made me feel like I was going to run out at any moment (though I seldom used the second one). This was in the era of a 15BPS ROF cap. Some of my back players would carry a case or very close to it.

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I played in a 3-man benefit tourney a few weeks back, using a high-cap Rotor and carrying 4 pods. After the first game I shucked the pods and just went out with a full hopper each time. Never ran out of paint. But, I didn't sit in back holding a lane the whole time either, I pushed up and only shot when attempting to get an elimination or keep a head down for movement.

It's an interesting concept. And I'd bet it works a whole lot differently in a woodsball game (which is 95% what I play). As a matter of fact, if it were in a woodsball game I'd be tempted to just go mag-fed with my TPX and let teammates provide the suppressive fire.

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Originally Posted by Justus

I played in a 3-man benefit tourney a few weeks back, using a high-cap Rotor and carrying 4 pods. After the first game I shucked the pods and just went out with a full hopper each time. Never ran out of paint. But, I didn't sit in back holding a lane the whole time either, I pushed up and only shot when attempting to get an elimination or keep a head down for movement.

It's an interesting concept. And I'd bet it works a whole lot differently in a woodsball game (which is 95% what I play). As a matter of fact, if it were in a woodsball game I'd be tempted to just go mag-fed with my TPX and let teammates provide the suppressive fire.

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I seldom even opened the first pod and it was not abnormal for me to shoot 500 rounds during a tournament. However the worry about running out of paint bothered me.

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Originally Posted by Bear_Claw

And i also understand the premis of a all mech game for pure nostalgia point. But with guns like the newly coming GOG Enmey, and Tippmans Crossover (without a batt in mech mode), or the Tippmann Phenom i think you would not see the nostalgia you looking for. A best bet would be a limit on year of manufacture.

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I was wondering when these guns would come up. Indeed, these are real guns out in the wild right now (or are forthcoming in mass availability and affordability in the first’s case).

The eNMEy is single trigger, so you’re not walking that thing unless you change it, and even if you do, who knows how walkable it will really be. And if it shoots anything like a Vibe, which I do own (just for screwing around with; about to give it to a friend and be rid of it), then it’s not going to pose a problem. It’s a neat gun, don’t get me wrong. I just can’t see it being overpowered.

The mech mode of the Crossover has been described as "unwalkable". I've never seen one, so someone else should confirm this.

The Phenom also appears to be … difficult to walk in mech mode.

I don’t see any of these guns interfering with the spirit of a mech game.




If you’re going to limit paint, limit it to 150 per player. That's where things get interesting. An accurate player should easily get to about 20 balls per elimination, so that’s 7(.5) heads right there. Get better, or more realistically, if you only need to make say 3 eliminations to materially change the outcome of a game, then you’re handing 90 rounds per front player to your backing players.

I did not mean to instate that the new GOG or Tippmann markers would be overpowering. Just that if one of your goals was to have an old school game maybe mech only not the best option.

And for that matter if you limit year of manufacture of the marker you would then also limit rate of fire.

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Originally Posted by Bear_Claw

I did not mean to instate that the new GOG or Tippmann markers would be overpowering. Just that if one of your goals was to have an old school game maybe mech only not the best option.

And for that matter if you limit year of manufacture of the marker you would then also limit rate of fire.

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To what year though. It would be interesting to see the Shoeboxes and Angels back on the field. Though I admit to not actually recalling when the first Angels came out... remember the single trigger Angels?

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Originally Posted by Bear_Claw

And for that matter if you limit year of manufacture of the marker you would then also limit rate of fire.

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Stock markers only? What about modifications? Or, "piece it together" markers like 'Mags?

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Originally Posted by Justus

Stock markers only? What about modifications? Or, "piece it together" markers like 'Mags?

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That is one of those reasons that while I love the idea I am not so sure it will work in practice. For instance is the intelliframe legal while the e-blade is not? Does it matter when it was first released? What about an early Angel with current Tadeo software?. If you do make the rule that it can only have parts and accessories produced before __________ who do you have on-hand who is expert enough to judge it.

What about o-rings? Do we all have to use old o-rings?

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx...1xxfo1_400.gif

I think ya all overthinkin. Just set a manufacture date and let people play. If the point is a old school game with semi fire then keep that. And if you really worry about the used of up grades on the angles and shockers of the day. Then just extend the manufacture date to include the hopper you use as well dont care WHAT mode you have on your bored but if you shooting a 9v revi rate of fire will be fair.

But seriously people play pump vs semis and electros all the time a slightly higher rate of fire in semi is not as big an advantage as some of you seem to imply.

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Originally Posted by BTAutoMag

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx...1xxfo1_400.gif

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this :D

I think we've hit our internet meme limit for this thread. Better just lock it down. :rolleyes:

You know how we could improve AO:

Whenever a discussion reaches a point that we don't like we can throw up some memes rather then just simply exiting it and allowing others to continue it.

That makes sense.

i think we should stage a game with splatt masters that have to be hand fed 1 ball at a time... and youre not allowed to carry the balls on your person. you have to wrestle them away from rabid squirrels mid game :rofl:

Just saw this thread.
I would love to play limited paint games.
For example one pod per game.
So, you walk on the field. Empty your pod in your hopper. That's it.

Anybody who plays at SC village interested?