Offical LVL10, Reports from the Field Thread

Got my kits last night, installed..... still trying to recover from the shock...

-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly

Setup 2 RT's and 1 Emag, took my time with the first install (1 hour on my son's RT), the remaining 2 only took 20 mins each to setup and fine tune.

My bro's RT - Carrier #1.5, 3 shims, middle spring, 750 psi input.
My son's RT - Carrier #1, 3 shims, middle spring, 750 psi input
My Emag - Carrier #1.5, 3 shims, middle spring, 750 psi input.

-The type of gun you're using it on

My bro's High Rise RT (RT00597), my son's LPF RT (RT04631), and my EMag (EM00570)

-Efficiency

No idea just yet, won't know till I get my scuba tanks refilled tomorrow, only getting 1500 psi fills right now, not enough for a decent guess. I can normally shoot 700-800 from my Armagedon 68/4500 @3k psi, I also normally top off between games, never know when you just need to hammer.

-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used

Fired 500 rounds of old RPS green marbs through each, egg shaped, dimpled... zero chops on all three. 2 broken down the barrel (Smart Parts AA) on my son's RT, and 3 down the barrel (Old Smart Parts AA Barrel) on my bro's RT. Swapping out the ported tight bore barrels for stock Mag barrels resulted in zero breaks down the barrels. I see this as two possible issues, FPS too high and/or the ancient swollen paint, this case was set aside 9 months ago for being out of round. The stock barrels are much more forgiving in bore diameter then the other barrels. No chrono at the house so I'm only guessing as to what the FPS is currently at, it seems a bit high just eye balling it, will verify this weekend at the field.

-Any problems you encountered

Zero problems.

I had plenty of warning from previous posts about the white base o-ring, so was expecting to see it in the kit.

-Other general comments

Tom's quick start instructions are perfect for getting the kit installed and working in short order. Print and read through both before starting. Quick start is just that, quick and dirty. For fine tuning you need to read the long version.

Seeing the bolt stop in the video is one thing, seeing it do it for real will make a convert out of any non believer in short order. Amazing work Tom, simply amazing. My bro has been contemplating selling his RT as it and my son's RT have both been very problematic with paint breakage, they'll usually bust 1 in 20 rapid fire, a chamber break every time. It was very refreshing to hear the bolt coughing as it pinched the balls and having nothing break in the chamber. My bro is very excited as his RT now has a completely new lease on life. 3 extremely satisfied customers...

-Evil Bob

How long to install? About 40m. #2 carrer, 2 shims, middle spring, 800 psi.
Type of marker. Micro Emag.
Efficency Not much difference.
chops or Breaks? Went to Wallmart and bought 200 rounds of brass eagle that had to be a year old. Opened and seen a slight bit of paint. this stuff would break in two just dropping it from my hip and no bounce. 0 chops even tried the tape trick. broke one ball down the barrel ( this might have been the one that was leaking in the contaner).
problems. Had installed the 1.5 carrer and the marker would fire in E mode but was all locked up in mechanical mode.
Comments This thing rocks!

well i just found this interesting.....

i just happened to look down at my floor today in my room and low and behold i found a foamie.... at first i thought it was one of the spares from the kit and didn't think anything of it....

took my marker over to my firends house to show him what LvX would do for his RT... needless to say he was impressed but when i took out my vlave to show him the parts... i find my foamie was missing... i just looked at the on i found on my floor just now and it looks like there was glue on it at one time on one side...

the only time my mag was not in my gear bag was when i first set it up..... which means the foamie was not in the bolt the whole time though out the tests i did in my previous posts.... and i was using 2-4 bounce paint for it all and didn't even know it was missing.... this now has left me with no reservations about the LvX what so ever... esp seein the only time a squeegee was in my barrel was to show the pinchin action of the bolt at thte field....

now i just need to bring home some superglue from work (indust grade for plastic to metal bonding)

i'm just loving this more and more... now TK about those I-Zgrips (nudge nudge wink wink)

My Foamie went bye bye too. have no idea when or where. Have not shot paint and maybe a hundred dry pulls and its missing.

On other issue though that I have noticed and maybe needs some attention:

Pressure retention when degassing is much higher. And presents a little bit of a problem. I am seeing like 250 - 300 psi still in the line when the system has degassed to a point that it will not shoot. I totally over looked this during install but it persists and was present then as I think back. I originaly thought it was a sticky Macro fitting but now realize It was under that much pressure. Now this is going to be a problem I think we are going to need to work on. Because in further demo last night I chopped my on off pin removing the valve and shot the on off assembly out. Breaking the on off pin!

We think this retention of gas is a by product of design here and can be a problem and require some sort of device like a slide check in the system to allow total degassing. Remember, I am not talking about that little hiss that you get most times but a big one 300 psi is way too much to start taking things apart. During install I was having to use and small box wrench to bleed the macro out. I had thought that was due to set up errors but it presisted even when the lvl 10 was working properly.

So I think its a part of the trade off here then and would like to know what others are seeing. Screw in tank guys will not see this. Quick connect guys are getting a big hiss I bet. Hard line set up guys with macro or SS line will see this i think.

I need for those of you with closed systems and adjustable tanks that have LP side guages to notice for me what pressures you see when degassed.

Added later on edit: I moved the lvl 10 over to the RT Pro. Since I cannot use the emag due to that broken On/off pin I figures WHY NOT! Easy thing to do as I had already disccoverd my correct carrier for this bolt right? So I just moved it right over as it was. Stock spring, two shims ect. And with a bit of upping the input I got it running quick in like five minutes.

But on degassing still showing retention of 200 psi in this one.

Mods..Does this topic fit into this thread or should there be a post setup thread? I thought this thread was for initial setup and testing notes. Either way here it is..

Well I have not lost my foamie, yet. But I have experienced the same degassing problems. There is always 300 - 375 psi left in the line after turning off the air. This is due to the heavier spring. Just not quite enough pressure to get the bolt to move. Setups using a shorter spring might not have this problem at all or may just get an extra shot off, reducing the inline pressure a bit more. The trigger still has tension, and if you pull it enough it will reduce the pressure a bit (blow-by somewhere I guess). Removing the quick disconnect while under pressure has mangled the male fittings edges. On my marker with a flatline 3000 I have resorted to backing off the reg and letting it bleed the pressure off. It requires resetting the output pressure but it is easier on the fittings.

Well we will leave this and a redirect to a thread I started on this issue - cphilip

For degassing issue Go here: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41874

Well, kit arrived wed, played a little w/it on thursday night, started my installation today. How long; about 1/2 hr, once I figured out what I need to do. Set it up on my stock emag. Used the 1.5 carrier, no shims, and the middle (cut) spring. havent had a chance to chrony it yet, or shoot paint, will get to that this weekend.
As a side note, I too still have pressure in the line. I screwed up one of my connectors getting in off, and had to install another one. I dont really think that there is anything you can do to correct it boltwise, but, like Cphilip said, maybe add a slide valve or something. If I wiggle mine around, I bleed of enough air to safely disengage it.
I will post the firing test later. Cant do it today, no where to go and fire it.

EDIT: Just added a slide check valve onto my steel line. Several other ppl here had too much pressure in the lines to safely disconnect the air when changing out carriers. Anoyone reading this that hasnt installed theirs yet, check out cphilips thread on the pressure in the lines.

With respect to the left over pressure issue, ALL guns can have some sort of quick disconnect inbetween the tank and gun to bleed the residual pressure.

Macro and microline guys can take a straight fitting, screw that into a female QD fitting, and then screw a 90 degree elbow for SS hose into the valve or output of the tank, screw the male end of the QD into that and you now have a quick disconnect for Macro/Microline.

It's even easier to put one on SS hose.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by BlackVCG
With respect to the left over pressure issue, ALL guns can have some sort of quick disconnect inbetween the tank and gun to bleed the residual pressure.

Macro and microline guys can take a straight fitting, screw that into a female QD fitting, and then screw a 90 degree elbow for SS hose into the valve or output of the tank, screw the male end of the QD into that and you now have a quick disconnect for Macro/Microline.

It's even easier to put one on SS hose.

---

You are certainly right, but I think the point is a marker that previously had very little residual pressure might suddenly have too much. We don't know if that is an effect of the L10 design or something we're doing wrong or what. If it IS an effect of the L10, then you might want to consider RECOMMENDING a bleed valve of some sort. The amount of pressure left is nowhere near what is normal for a mag - and the first time (during L10 setup) it is potentially damaging or dangerous if you aren't expecting it.

FatMan

Yes Fatman! That is truely the point. It's a new situation and frequent degasing is nesiscary to install lvl 10 and many may not expect it nor be prepared for it. Prior to this on all my mags a simple macro fitting was sufficent for degasing and now its not. Heads up!

It took me around 40 minutes to install my Lvl 10. I presently use the No. 2 carrier, no shims and my original bolt spring on a E-mag (converted RT Pro).

It took a long while because it wouldn't fire the first time, at which point I completely disassembled the lvl 10 and found the shims had been mangled. It is my recomendation that the shims be made to the inner diameter of the power tube to prevent the shims from accidentally slipping during the installation procedure. After 8 minutes of gently coaxing my mangled shims out of the power tube, I decided to go shim-less, which ended up working very well.

I have only tested it out on objects inserted into the breach, as I will be proceeding to the paintball store tomorrow, so me and my freinds can test out the modification, I will edit my post then.

10 mins. to install
type of gun: 68 minimag

only problem i had installin it was that i couldn't rapid fire the gun. After raiseing the imput pressure it worked fine.


I had several peolpe put their finger in front of the bolt and were shocked at the result. there not even a cocker in this world that is as gental on paint. with my z-grip i decied to wait on an rt valve till i get a new warp its just not nessary. Thank you airgun.

-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly
About an hour...

-Long Silver Mainspring
-Carrier w/2 lines (.308"?)
-2 Shims

Basically the "default" set-up

I had to turn up the velocity adjuster about 3/4 of a turn to get the gun to stop leaking and shoot at 280fps. I turnrd 'er up to 295ish and fired away!

-The type of gun you're using it on
E-Mag, set at 16 bps (H/L mainbody), stock barrel w/new design plastic nubbins. 68/4500 Flatline set @1000psi output pressure and a HALO loader.

-Efficiency
Dunno yet, and I don't really care, cause I'm not breaking ANT paint!

-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used
I shot a bag of old BigBall I had for 3 months. No breaks. I bought a case of Viper Venom yellow, 500 shots, no breaks. I went to a local PB store, and bought 2 bags of "discount" paint (old stuff, brittle stuff that the owner just wants to get rid of) 1 bag of 32* blue/silver...no breaks, 1 bag 32* brown (cleveland?)...ONE break, in the barrel, about a third of the way down.

The paint was fired by me & my Son, pretty much as fast as we can pull the trigger. E-Mag is set on 16bps. Hopper was fired 'till empty over and over. I couldn't chop a ball!

As a control, my son shot about 50 or so rounds of each paint through his Gen-X 3 'Cocker, with no breaks.

I'm stoked! :D


-Any problems you encountered
I had a bit of leaking at first, the power tube "O" ring in the carrier just needed breaking in. A couple hundred dry-fires took care of it. I may need to drop the carrier down 1 step as the "O" ring further wears. The foamie fell off the bolt during the first few dry-fires. I re-glued it with a 2 part epoxy.

-Other general comments
So far, so good. About 1800 rounds fired, ONE barrel break. Accuracy with the BigBall and Viper Venom were outstanding! Gotta get LVL 10 for my classic mag now! :cool:

EDIT: and about residual air pressure in the lines, I use a Q/D, mounted near the Flatline's reg, to speed up field stripping & gun maintainence. Just release it, and the air escapes safely. It's a good idea, LVL 10 or not.

Russ

HOORAY

It took exactly 29:47 to fully install (stopwatch), and test fire. I used the new standard size bolt spring, two shims, and the "one stripe" carrier. All parts simply dropped in with no resistance. The carrier was given a nudge into the power tube with the cap of the KC Trouble Free oil bottle, it's a perfect fit as a plunger. The foamie left the building on the very first shot, but I foresee no trouble there.

It has been installed in Big Red. I chose to use the Minimag and Co2 to give it a fair shot. My Emag isn't having enough troubles to really have a true test of the system. I used up a new fill in the 16oz just playing with it, by shooting a pencil through a soda can (pencil fully in barrel, hit by bolt at end of travel so as to get the full speed and air blast), then pressing the soda can against the point of the pencil ,eraser against the bolt...yup, psssst is all I got! I even did the finger trick, heck, who of you haven't yet?

I had to increase the velocity to get it to fire off the new spring, but do not know the true speed yet. I'm playing tomorrow, so I will edit this post then.

*EDIT* Ok, it's tomorrow and I'm back from playing.

With the 8:30AM temperature 85+F, I chronoed at: 285-285-289-290-285-287, which for Co2 is superb! I did my best to break/chop/misfeed/crap on/totally screw up the gun................didn't happen at all/not once/what-so-ever.

Turned off the Revvy, shot it sideways, upside down, fast as possible. No chops. I made no changes to the internals, although I may put in one more spacer for S&G.

So, I decided to do the most evil of deeds.....I raised the 20oz upside down and above the gun.

You could watch the slinky and expando frost up, then the AIR valve...then I started shooting until the snow was flying, and the gun absolutely locked up and was leaking hard out the barrel. Ice is now flaking off tank, slinky, AIR valve, and body tube.

The on/off was frozen open, and the bolt was stuck forward, so when the valve thawed slightly, the remaining high pressure in the slinky rushed out in a pretty cloud of snow and smoke, just like a fire extiguisher, that made everyone back off a little with a look of fright! Of course, this mad rush of Co2 liquid out the bolt and barrel totally froze the LX componants AND the ball that was still in the chamber. Waiting another 3.5 minutes resulted in the bolt spring finally pushing the bolt back to sear lock.

Immediately after hearing the "click" of the sear, I got back on the trigger and started wailing away. Despite the great blizzard that erupted from the barrel, LX kept on shooting without any chops or stops.

I let anyone who wanted to, shoot the gun AND stick their finger in the breech! The universal response from 'Mag owners was......"I'm DEFINATELY gonna get me one of THOSE!" I can guarantee the first week sale of ten LX's at the local Pball shop.

BTW: OOOOOOOUUUUUUCH! I got hit way too often today:D

Update.....

Chronoed up at the field, all three markers (1 old HR RT, 1 newer RT, and 1 EMag) are in the 320+ from the initial setup, most likely the reason why I broke paint during the initial setup as well as it was plain ugly paint to begin with (egg shaped, dimpled, swollen, etc.)

Put 1,000 rounds (bought 2 cases of fresh RPS Marbs) through each of the Mags I added the LVL 10 kit to before lunch. Field has us chrono under 270, all three dialed right in at 265-269 without much effort. Found that if I dialed below 260, I'd get alot of coughing and bolt stick. Seriously thinking about upping the input from 750 to 800+ to compensate. Field conditions are pretty dusty, and one of the RPS bags in the second case had really gritty balls in it, some fine powder was on the surface of the paintballs, never seen this before. Ran into bolt stick problems with my EMag (input at 750) after putting 700+ rounds through it (including that bag of dirty RPS paint). Cured the problem by putting in a few drops of KC Trouble Free into the quick disconnect after each game. If I didn't oil up, I'd run into bolt stick the next game. It was definitely worth taking the time to do it after each game. Going to send a nasty gram to RPS about dirty balls... someone in their QC dept needs to be slapped around...

0 breaks/ 0 chops... flawless.

After lunch I put away the RT's and put the remaining 1,000 through my EMag.

0 breaks/0 chops... flawless.

Gas Efficiency...

Found I could get 750-800 easily on a single 3k fill in my Armagedon 68/4500 with LVL 10, Without LVL 10 I used to get close to 900... so there is a marginal loss, along the lines of 15%. If I don't chop paint as a result, so be it. If it becomes an issue, I'll get that mega booster I've been drooling over.

Best quotes of the day...

"What the HELL is that??!!" a player exclaimed as he pointed at my Emag/Warp/HALO combo...

Showed LVL 10 to everyone who would listen, including the field owner who is a die hard Mag convert, his words were "it's about damn time!"

"That is so damn cool! Man, I gotta get me one of those. I want your's, how much you want for it?" he says as he's digging out his wallet.

"I was torn between getting an Angel and an EMag" a player said looking down at his shiny new Angel, after I showed him how LVL 10 works he said "it appears I have chosen poorly." :D

-Evil Bob

EB,

You are too close to the edge with your setup. Rasing the input pressure will not help the bolt stick. You need to go down to the next size mainspring to cure the problem.

On the other had you probably have it setup to be the most forgiving that it can get. The way you have it now would be a pro tourney setup but you do have to oil it often.

AGD

UPDATE! After wearing the o-ring in, I have switched to the 1.5 carrier and added 1 shim, two shims were causing a steady leak and after fishing out another mangled shim (this makes three)I have had absolutely no other problems since. My set-up still has the original bolt spring that came with my RT Pro, before I had it converted to an E-mag.

My only recomendation is that the shims need to be made to either the inner diameter of the power tube or a touch smaller, to facilitate ease of removal. I have severely mangled 3 shims despite my careful following of the install instructions, not a major problem just a very minor inconvenience. Now all I have to do is buy 3 more shims for my kit...:D

PS Thanks Tom and everyone from AGD, who helped in the creation and manufacture of this incredible product.

Tom Kaye is the man! I received my SFL last week Friday on the 28th. Couldn't play with it because they shut us down, because of the extreme fire danger in the forests, in our part of Arizona and there is no private fields where we live. So today, the 6th we travelled to play on a private field and played against some other speedball teams and lit them up with the new SFL. The Level 10 and the ACE were amazing, no breaks, no burps, no smiles from the other team. Everybody wants one. The SFL with the Level 10 and the ACE in it showed up Angels and Cockers all day. I put 1200 rounds of Marbalizer through it. There was one drop in velocity at the chrono station. It dropped from 272 to 227 from one shot to the next and never did it again after that. I am very pleased with the new gun and its performance.

hey guys i am new to the forum but i order a beta level ten and that was like 2 weeks ago and it still isn't here is there a large supply and demand or what.

Well, went to the field for official testing today. First, I switched springs, running the short spring in my emag. No problems at all. Chrony'd a little high for my field...297. Had to crank it way down to get under 25. Finally settled on 277. Good enough.
I put almost a whole cae through it, shooting Worrpaint. One barrel break-thats it. It did actually hiss twice, I was firing hybrid mode, and the first time I heard it, I thought it sounded pretty cool. Well, no breaks either time it pinched. Great product, and, my only suggestion when it is officially released, is like everone else; make sure they know the pressure in the lines are higher than normal when you degas. Other than that, I love this!
Oh, one other thing; I was running the original superbolt in this, and didnt notice either a recoil or weight difference at all.

I put 500 Viper Venom (orange) balls through the gun today. I TRIED to chop a ball. Held the gun sideways, no chop, used the VL200 (plain 'ol hopper) shooting in hybrid, shooting as fast as possible, No Chops. No Breaks, period!

The gun just goes "pftt" when there is ball caught half-way in the chamber. The bolt re-set EVERY time! :cool:

I did loose another foamie, and did most of (?) the shooting today WITHOUT a foamie on the bolt!

once again...

#2 carrier
long silver spring
2 shims
1000psi input pressure

Yes, I am excited about LVL10 :D

Russ

First off this things awsome!

I'm using the 1.5 carrier with 2 shims and the short spring. All together i fired about 1300-1400 rounds without one single break or chop! Usually the bolt would push the paintball either all the way into the chamber and fire or out of it and dry fire if it wasn't quite there. I can even stick my pinky in the breech and fire, just goes pff an resets.

The only problem i found was that when first gasing up the gun i had to push the bolt back about an 8th of an inch then it worked great.

This things amazing! usually i would have had atleast 2 chops and 1 barrel break, but not anymore!

UPDATE I went to my friendly paintball field for some more hardcore testing. My set-up is the 1.5 carrier, one shim and the original spring on my warp feed left E-mag (converted RT Pro) with warp feed and turborev board modified revolution. I have put over 6000 rounds through my E-mag today, brands including JT Maxim,Inferno, Midnight, Zap Pro and a year old case of brand X paint. All in all it was a fun and uneventfull day with not a single chop. Quite a surprise from my friends at the field who are use to seeing me walk off the field oozing paint from the barrel from my chopping paint. Now, I am just trying to find more brittle paint to shoot through it, as the most brittle paint the field offers (see above) has been shot through my E-mag. I will continue to update whenever I get more paint to shoot.

I am using the 1.5 carrier with 0 shims and the longest spring. I fired 350 shots, not sure what kind it is, well I had 0 breaks, 0 chops. Tomorrow I am going to put 1000 more through it and see what happens ,and do even more testing.

-Problems encountered
The only problems I had was when I first dry fired about 3 times, the foamie came flying out. So I had to reglue it after. And also there was a very small leak but after try fireing it for alittle bit that took care of it. Every thing else went pretty well from there.

-took me about 40 minutes
-68 mag P/f ,12 volt revy,I-frame, teardrop barrel,68/3000 800psi usally get around 750 shots.

--Gas Efficiency
Not really sure yet, going to get my tank refilled tomorrow and then I can probably tell and update on it. Not sure what my velocity is, but will find out soon.

LVL 10 is awsome!

It seemed to be about the perfect config for the markers I was working on, really gentle on the paint, didn't take much to stop the bolt. Basicly I never wanted to see a broken ball at the bolt again on these three markers. The normal spring just didn't seem to be forgiving enough for me.

I didn't have any major bolt stick problems until I hit that bag of really gritty paint in my EMag, this stuff was really dusty, I could feel it on my hand after loading up my tubes, and this was right out of a fresh box. The other three bags in the case were just fine. When I got home, the bolt and spring were really grimey, more so then usual. Oiling up regularly between games really seems to go along way.

Went out today to another field, their field limit is 300 fps, dialed in at 295, was +/- 3 fps all day long. Burned through 2 and half cases of Diablo Hellfire, 0 chops/0 breaks.

Quotes from today...

A player on pink team as I walk by: "I hear there is someone on yellow with an E-mag, I bet he doesn't get to play very often with all the paint he breaks"
3 guys standing near him start chanting "blender, blender, blender, blender..."
I salute them with a big grin on my face. In game I took out one of his buddies on the right tape as he's making a move for the 50 yard bunker, tagged him on the run with a long string of paint, yelled for my teammates to give me cover fire and boogied for the bunker he had just vacated, got angles on their whole front line, shot 5 out in short order. At the end of the game I walked past the same four players, I was chanting "e-mag, e-mag, e-mag, e-mag..." with a big stupid grin on my face :)

Ref comes up to me after game three, it's Mike, a guy I've known and played with for over 10 years: "Been alot of complaints that you're shooting full auto, I know you have a stock EMag so I know that aint possible. Mind if I check it out?"
"Sure thing."
He rips a long string of paint, sounded like around 10 bps... "Oh... My....God....... that aint right."
He hands it back, I take it and rip a faster and longer string.... no hickups, no chops, nothing, just a long string of Hellfire hitting a narrow tree 30 feet away. I turn back to Mike and say "Level 10 warpfed HALO goodness."
"You're shooting Hellfire?"
"Yep."
Mike turns and walks away without saying a single word, the expression on his face was priceless.

After lunch I moved from the speedball field to the woods, so did the first 4 guys I ran into at the first game. Flanked left, took out three guys who didn't even know I was there, shot out 3 people in the flag station, pulled the flag, then came down the opposite side of the field. Ran into my 4 buddies on the left tape, butt shot two of them before they even knew I was there.
One of them yells: "Oh poop-poop-de-do! Its the Emag guy!"
Shot the remaining two out. Came out with the flag over my shoulder only to get shotout by my own team, gotta love rec ball :) Game ends 5 minutes later when the 12 year old who shot me out returned the flag to our base.
Back in the staging area I'm reloading and chilling out. My 4 buddies approach me, they're wanting to take a serious look at the EMag/Warp/HALO rig I'm running. Showed them how LVL 10 works and let them shoot it at the chrono station. 4 new Automag converts...

-Evil Bob

Level 10 installed on a Triggernomics ReTro Mag

2 shims
standard bolt spring

Installation took about 30 minutes. One thing I'd like to add...If you have it gassed up and your marker does not leak, but when you pull the trigger and the bolt only goes slightly forward and either does not reset itself or resets itself, you need to turn up your velocity.

I shot a 2000 rnd case of Kick'n paint without a single break. The paint is a medium shell. The temp was in the 80s and the humidity was very, very high. In fact it was so humid that the paint would swell shortly after taking it out of the bag. Most of the case (1500) was shot during play. The remaing 500 were shot as fast as possible. I shot an entire hopper with my loader off and not a single break.

I haven't used this product enough to tell if there is a difference in efficiency.

I am very impressed and have a new found love for my mag.

-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly

It took me about 2 hours while reading the instructions from Tom. Then took to proshop to get the Automag expert to help fine tune it. That took another hour or two.

-The type of gun you're using it on

Automag classic with Auto Response (no more paint soup). I need a faster loader then my 9 volt it can't keep up with the A/R

-Efficiency

About the same.

-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used

0 breaks 0 chops blaze and team colors. a couple of breaks when we held the ball there and kept firing. (side note 6 hits in tourney paint and it will break)

-Any problems you encountered

none pretty simple with the instructions from Tom. The Proshop just changed the carrier to make it so it doesn't break tourney paint.

-Other general comments

Level 10 is well worth the cash unless you have never choped a ball. I also love telling people i don't carry a squegee anymore go find a ref.:D

Installation Time: About 30 minutes.

#1 carrier (1.5 had a very small leak when pushing the bolt around)
Long Spring
1 Shim

Shot 1000 rds of Anarchy - 0 breaks/ 0 chops
Shot 500 rds of Great American - 0/0

Efficiency: First time using a new tank. Switched from a 47ci nitro duck to a 68ci Flatline. No accurate measurement but I got about 600 out of my 68ci and I used to get 600 out of my 47ci w/o Lvl 10. So I believe it is a bit less efficient. Not to bad

Problems: The first part of the day the marker worked flawlessly. After I removed the valve to show some Mag Haters why they were getting smoked all day I had a few issues. After shooting a few shots, then waiting 15 seconds or so, the next shot would be extremely low pressure the next shot would shoot 2 balls, then everything was fine till it was rested again. I could not detect any leaks and the tank was full and regulated pressure was showing 850 psi. I have yet to be able to go through the marker to see if I could find anything else wrong. Any ideas would be appreciated. (I tried re-oiling it)

UPDATE
Efficiency: Roughly 800 reliable shots from a 3K fill. Just a bit less than before.

The level ten arived and within ten minutes it was up and running. we (me and sniper1rfa) used the quick start guide. our set up uses the medium spring, two shims, and the 1-1/2 carrier. we had NO problems whatsoever with an old level 7.

we shot about 500 rounds of mixed old, crappy, 2 bounce TC and old crappy marbs. the only problem (sorry, i lied) we had was that some of the paint was so swollen the bolt could not push it into the breech. we had one break because a good (read: better) ball slammed into a stuck one. no chops though. i doubt this will be a problem with good paint. BTW, sniper1rfa, who cannot shoot a mag to save his life, put the thing through its paces, stopping the bolt on paint every 5th shot or so.

we ran about 350 shots through it and the 68 ci tank whent from 2300 psi to about 1200 psi. noticeably worse, but not too bad. ran fine with a screw in preset tank.

also, the foamie is still kickin', though i doubt it is necessary with this kit.


now excuse me while i go shoot my finger some more (im out of paint).

Well. I got my two level 10's today.

Emag:

First installation into my emag Installation took about 40 min to get it right (including shim tweaking). It may take more to get it perfect.

I tried the a couple of different carriers ending up with a number two. The carrier initially felt tight, but the next larger one leaked air. The number 2 carrier performs well though so it must be the proper fit.

Next came the shims. I held the bolt while pulling the trigger to see what effect each of the shims had. I found that 5 shims caused constant leakage out the barrel, 4 worked but leaked if the bolt was bumped or if the trigger was slightly pressed. 3 shims provided crisp control without premature leakage . There really wasn't much difference in feel between 2 shims and 3 shims except that the air would vent quicker in the event of a blockage if the 3 shims were used instead of 2.

I've stayed with the short stock spring. I haven't got a chrono so I can't play with the settings properly until the weekend.

Update: Well, I couldn't wait so I purchased a chrono. I played with the settings and ended up using the middle(cut) spring. I am able to shoot about 285 consistently without missing a shot due to a tight ball. The largest spring wouldn't shoot when the velocity was consistently below 300. With the middle spring the impact on the ball is very light and gentle. I believe I have found Nirvana in my emag.

Update: I had the emag in a tounament today June 13/2002. When setting it up to chrono using the standard RT chrono method, it would cough with a ball in the chamber. When I fired normally, it seemed to work fine. I though I might be close to the edge of performance so I cut about 1/4 inch of spring steel off the middle spring (not 1/4 inch of length) that I was using. I was able to chrono properly after that with no coughing. After breaking it in it seems to work better and I may have to order another proper middle spring.

I shot about 1200 rounds in 5 games playing 3 on 3. I busted a ball in the breech at the start of the second game. It didn't look like a chop but it made a mess. Other than that it rocked and it felt good. Lots of mag users were at the tourny and I was spreading the news.


I noticed a slight metal on metal sound when manually pushing the bolt in and out of the power tube. It had a rougher feel than normal. Maybe its just something due to tighter tolerences and will smooth itself during break-in. Anyone else notice this? It doesn't seem to affect the operation. I just don't like the feel of metal on metal. Update. The metal contact was between the new power tube tip and the inside of the new bolt. Contact was being made at the front outside edge of the round section of the power tube tip, and only on one side. It'll probably smooth itself out. I'll be keeping an eye on it for wear.

I tried shooting with a squeegy held down the front of the emag against the bolt. That way I could get a feel for the pressure applied to the ball. The pressure is very gentile until about the 3/4 past the feed neck. You can feel the difference by varying the end of the squeegy when you fire. Its quite amazing.

I can see that my chopping problem will be eliminated or at least reduced even if a generic setup is used. I'll be fine tuning mine through a range of settings. Whats the use of a beta tester if I don't put it through its paces. See above comments now that I've updated.

Automag:

I've installed the second level 10 bolt kit into an old 1993 vintage level 7 automag using the stock spring. Set-up time was about 30 min. I figured it would be much quicker the second time but it takes time to time test spacer settings.

Again, I settled on the number 2 carrier. The next larger one was too finicky. It would work but had random leakage problems.

I installed the shims and again settled on 3 shims that provided the best control close to the venting point without leakage during partial trigger pulls.




Complete details will follow once I have access to a chrono. Done, see above in Emag section.

Not one chopped ball yet in 500 rounds fired without a battery in my revy, although I have yet to use bad paint.

One thing I have noticed is that you have to be a little more careful when you set your gun down. If you lean it on the barrel, it may leak a little air out the front.

Level 10 rocks.

-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly

about 1.5 hours between 2 days of trying different setups and velocities

-The type of gun you're using it on

minimag with retro VV00733 and hyperframe, dynaflow 68 4500

-Efficiency

I did not take any numbers down. And filled my tank many times so I don’t have numbers. Seemed less efficient.

-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used

0 chops 0 breaks after it was set up. One ball chopped el tigre with the smallest spring. When I was holding them to force a chop. After I moved to the medium cut spring it no longer broke paint with el tigre, slam, and marbilizer.


-Any problems you encountered. I could not use the longest spring without the reg venting and same with the medium spring until I compressed it myself to break it in.

I had one problem during the day of play. The bolt did not fire the ball but pushed it into the barrel like short stroking a cocker can do. I pulled the next ball out instead of shooting it because I was worried 3 might pile up in there and jam up my barrel

I have more stuff to say in this link, which I separated because it may draw some discussion, which should not clutter this thread. I would like tom or someone for AGD to carefully consider the ideas and suggestions presented.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=42317

EDIT
Another day of play with hell fire today I decided to take out 1 ship putting me at 2 and I had no problems no breaks no chops we were shootign at 250fps though

Installed my Lvl10 in 15 minutes using 1.5 carrier, 3 shims and longest spring. Let me tell you..this thing is VERY gentle.

Gun:
Automag 68 A.I.R. Valve MM body. 68/3k Flatline

Efficiency:
Slightly less than without lvl10. I get about 800 rounds out of a full 300 fill.

Breaks/Chops:
Using Severe (crappy) two color... 1 bounce field paint. I used this saturday..and all I can say is... "Amazing!" There were times I knew I would have chopped if it weren't for this bolt kit. I could hear the gun hiss then the next pull pop out comes the ball. Never had two fir wat the same time though. It started to rain a little making the paint real sketchy..and it never once chopped. I showed it off to everyone at my field and most were like Holy SH&& I can't believe you're gonna stick yer finger in there. I was like..well this is a lvl10 not a standard lvl7 mag... then their mouths hit the ground when I fired repeatedly with my finger in the breach. I also jammed a ball half in the feed tube with the barrel twisted a little to hold it in place....let everyone fire it as many times as they wanted and it never chopped the ball. Even though it was kinda squishy from the moisture in the air due to the rain. All in all... love it. Gonna sell it every chance I get.

Any problems encountered:
None.

I will have step by step pics up on my website of installation of LVL10. Tomorrow..

-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly

Well, it took me about 40 mins (Yeah, i'm a bit slow) to get it working correctly. For some reason or another, I couldn't really get it to shoot higher than 270 fps, but that might have been my paint/bore match, and the fact that I'm using a boomstick (2pc); air would vent out back if turned up any higher.

Used #2 carrier, 1 shim, and STD MainSpring <---- Weird. Someone explain to me?

-The type of gun you're using it on

Mini-Mag, Classic Valve, Intelliframe, 68/3000 ACI Bulldog (Old Style), Warp Feed, Boomstick (std. Brrl ID: .688)

-Efficiency

DIdn't shoot enough to get good numbers.

-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used

I was Just messing around @ my friend's place with 1 yr old Diablo Blaze. about 200 rnds, 0 chops, 0 breaks. I tried the paintball w/tape thing, and couldn't get it to chop. not expecially brittle paint, but good enough anyways.

-Any problems you encountered

Had a hard time setting it up. Couldn't get velocity over 270 fps, but probably because of very loose fit paint, and 2 pc barrel.

For some reason or another, Using the standard (normal mag) main-spring worked best for me.

-Other general comments

Very Very nice. I like the lack of recoil that I experienced. Not a previous super-bolt I user, so I have nothing to complain about. I'll probably pick up another bag of paint, and tinker with it a bit more, perhaps use a longer spring. I ran out of air (2000 psi) after getting the thing to work, and shooting a hopper of paint. 'still a bit pissed about the lil' low velocity, but I'll have to deal with it.

Paint wouldn't chop in it, however when I put my finger in the breech, I noticed that it kinda hurt when my finger was in the far side of the breech (away from the bolt). I think I wanna get it a bit slower.

Tried the dollar trick, and it sorta worked.

ok the set up a minimag with the
1.5 carrier and 2 shimms longest spring

took me about an hour total to the time of firing paint through it

fired about 50 shots through it due to lack of compressed air the shoots went through very cleanly didn't chop but in wierd angles it did pop out two balls (BETTER THAN PAINT IN THE BARREL LIKE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN) didn't get a chance to crono it but by looking at the ball speed and sound it sounded like a good fps.

recomendations to knew buyers
get the bolt i have an impulse and i was going to say bye to my mini but it is sooo hard now i might just have to have that as my back up gun and if i got the retro valve it would be a tough desicion on witch to use in tourneys.

I finally got the auto response trigger working on my classic automag. This combined with the Level 10 is OMG seweet.:D My only issue now is that i need to get a better hopper since my current one can't keep up. That is not a hard problem to fix. I love this anti chop level 10.

-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly

This part was done for me. I just received a Lvl 10 kit to install into another Emag and will report results later.

-The type of gun you're using it on

Shocktech SFL Emag with HALO B

-Efficiency

Roughly 580 effective shots from a 45/4500 PMI Pure Energy screw-in

-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used

0/0 RPS Marbs Advantage, RPS Evil pink

-Any problems you encountered

none

-Other general comments

Once in a while, there comes a product that revolutionizes the way the game is played. Level 10 is definitely the latest.

As one of the beta testers from the beginning of the Level 10 design, I experienced everything - good and bad. The Level 10 is the culmination of AGD's approach to creating the perfect marker. On one test run, two weeks prior to the release of the Level 10's to AO, I played 14 consecutive 10-man games without a single barrel break or chop while shooting some of the most fragile paint on the market - RPS Evil. Tournament play can present some of the most demanding situations in the way you have to shoot your gun. I never had an instance that it failed to shoot when I needed it most. Towards the end of practice I was able to shoot even when the battey had finally drained as well.

I believe even the most fickle of gun owners will try and stay with an AGD marker with this modification in it.

-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly

From the second i tore open the box to where it was installed it took about 5 minutes. Took a time out to bring my gun to the pro shop so id have a unlimited source of air to work with. From that time to when i found the best combination was another 10 minutes. Right now im running 0 carrier, 2 shims, and the longest spring although i had 1.5 in there and it worked fine as well.

-The type of gun you're using it on

Emag

-Efficiency

Seems about the same.

-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used

0/0 about 350 balls using month old worr field paint that had been in my car and then sitting around in my pods at 20 bps. Then the pro shop guy used about 200 TC and fanned in semi.

-Any problems you encountered

Not really a problem, but with the smallest carrier i notice i have to jack the pressure up farther then my tank will let me to get 20bps F/A. However it will do 14-16 and whatever i can walk it just fine. I noticed once when i had it sitting for a couple minutes, it froze up, but once i degassed and reconnected it was fine. Small price to pay for using the tightest carrier.

-Other general comments

This thing is amazing! I did the finger thing, the tape on the ball thing with the bolt hitting the seam, and 20 bps with a warp and Halo-A and it didnt show any signs of breaking! Im definitely a satisfied customer! :D

Took me about an hour to install because I had to rig up some stuff do I could quickly disconnect my Flatline.

Gun

I'm using an Emag.

Efficiency
Efficiency was near what it was before, maybe a little less.

Paint stuff

I had one chop when I put a viewloader 200 on my warp. It was very sticky and humid outside. So I had 1/0 out of 700 of the Brittlest (sp?)most unconsistant paint I could get my hands on. That's right, Brass Eagle. The bounce test that I did was 0,0,2,2,9,9


Problems

The way I had it would chop a ball every now and then when doing the tape thing with a paintball. One would take 30 pinces and the next would only take 2 or something like that. I would really like to know how to get this thing set as low as possible.


Comments

I love how little kick there is. I think it would be great if you could buy or if it came with a little "oring carrier carrier" that would be nice.

-How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly

Approximatly 10 minutes

-The type of gun you're using it on

.68 Automag Classic

-Efficiency

Un-noticable change

-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used

0, 3 month old Diablo Blaze (1-4 bounce)

-Any problems you encountered


N/A

-Other general comments


I just put 140 rounds thru the ole' mag with absolutly no problems. I purposely tried to make the gun chop, it was impossible. The paint was 3-month old Diablo Blaze, it was quite brittle. The lvl 10 perfermed FLAWLESSLY! This has to be the best $65 I've ever spent on paintball. My friend just offered me $100 for it. But, its all mine :) .

How long it took you to get it installed and what your configuration was to get it working properly

First try, around 25 minutes with medium spring. It didn't work properly with this setup though. When I played on it I couldn't shoot more then 270 and it would then drop off lower unless I upped the velocity. It would continue to drop. I readjusted it now, hopefully its all better.

The type of gun you're using it on

Retro Automag

-Number of breaks/chops and type of paint used

Didn't chop on my first setup even though I had barrel breaks. That low price worr paint stinks =(.

Any problems you encountered

I don't know if it will shoot properly until I get the gun checked out tommorow at the chrono and then onto the field.