# ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

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• 12-27-2007, 01:42 AM
Skragan
I am holding the squegee, but the amount of force is fairly high. I donīt know the velocity yet, but I will get my chronometer soon. It feels above 300 though... :D

Well, I would never use my tongue for testing, as long as it feels like this. I will write again after I got the speed.

BTW: Can I damage something, when holding the bolt back with the squegee stronger during firing ?
• 12-27-2007, 07:18 AM
athomas
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skragan
I am holding the squegee, but the amount of force is fairly high. I donīt know the velocity yet, but I will get my chronometer soon. It feels above 300 though... :D

Well, I would never use my tongue for testing, as long as it feels like this. I will write again after I got the speed.

BTW: Can I damage something, when holding the bolt back with the squeegie stronger during firing ?

You won't damage anything. All you are doing is preventing the bolt from moving forward, which simulates a ball stuck in the breach.

The level 10 works using differential force. The bolt spring applies a force towards the back. The chamber pressure applies force towards the front. The difference in force between the backwards force and the forward force is the amount of pressure the ball will feel when the bolt goes forward. Using a stiffer spring increases the backwards force, but requires more forward force to maintain velocity. The result is still less forward force on the ball, but the minimum operating velocity will be higher. When checking the operation of the gun, use a chrono and find the lowest velocity that the gun will consistently shoot at. Adjust the velocity 20fps above that amount. This velocity will give you the best consistent operation and great antichop ability for your level 10 bolt. If the minimum velocity is too high, you need to use the next lighter spring. If the minimum velocity is low, you need to use a stiffer spring to make it easier on paint.
• 01-05-2008, 11:50 PM
DemskeetSkeet
Need help, 68 classic w/retrovalve, lvl 10 bolt
Hi there! I have had issues with my automag with retro valve, and level 10 bolt. I had tunaman himself help me strip down my valve and clean it out, install the lvl 10, and got it to fire flawlessly. He also told me that it would leak through the barrel and that I would have to change the gold ring(the ones that are marked with dots and lines) after some use. I changed it and it worked fine.

The problem I have been having with it is that it will dry fire, but when I put ammo in it it won't fire at all!

Is there a specific reason that it would be having this bolt stick with paint in it?

Please, I live in Michigan and no one near me knows about automags, the paintball store in my city and the next went out of business.

Any help would be appreciated. I am very upset because I have invested a lot of money into this gun, my cousin has the lvl 7 ventury bolt and retro valve and it works flawlessly.

Thank you very much!
• 01-06-2008, 07:54 AM
athomas
Quote:

Originally Posted by DemskeetSkeet

The problem I have been having with it is that it will dry fire, but when I put ammo in it it won't fire at all!

Is there a specific reason that it would be having this bolt stick with paint in it?

Yes, there is a specific reason. The ball in the breach is causing the required forward force to be higher than the chamber pressure can exert on the bolt stem. You will have to increase the velocity setting of the gun to overcome this force. If nothing else in the gun was changed, then this should not have happened. Perhaps your leak out the front was not caused by a carrier that was excessively loose due to break-in, but rather was leaking due to the vent hole being exposed a bit after break-in. Go back to your original carrier. Remove the shims from the powertube and try that to see if the leak stops. If it doesn't, then go to the next larger carrier with the same oring. If it does not fire you will need to increase the velocity setting. If the velocity is too high, then you will need to use the next shorter/lighter bolt spring to allow the velocity to be turned down to a usable value.
• 01-06-2008, 10:43 AM
DemskeetSkeet
Quote:

Originally Posted by athomas
Yes, there is a specific reason. The ball in the breach is causing the required forward force to be higher than the chamber pressure can exert on the bolt stem. You will have to increase the velocity setting of the gun to overcome this force. If nothing else in the gun was changed, then this should not have happened. Perhaps your leak out the front was not caused by a carrier that was excessively loose due to break-in, but rather was leaking due to the vent hole being exposed a bit after break-in. Go back to your original carrier. Remove the shims from the powertube and try that to see if the leak stops. If it doesn't, then go to the next larger carrier with the same oring. If it does not fire you will need to increase the velocity setting. If the velocity is too high, then you will need to use the next shorter/lighter bolt spring to allow the velocity to be turned down to a usable value.

Hey thanks for the response! I will first try to turn up the velocity to see if that works. If that doesn't help which carrier is the smallest and which one is the largest?

Thanks
• 01-06-2008, 10:58 AM
Skragan
@all: Thanx for help, everything works great now (300fps with perfectly tuned level 10) :)
• 01-06-2008, 06:39 PM
DemskeetSkeet
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skragan
@all: Thanx for help, everything works great now (300fps with perfectly tuned level 10) :)

Lucky! I hope I can get my tuned in.
• 01-06-2008, 07:30 PM
athomas
Quote:

Originally Posted by DemskeetSkeet
Hey thanks for the response! I will first try to turn up the velocity to see if that works. If that doesn't help which carrier is the smallest and which one is the largest?

Thanks

If you didn't know which carrier was largest or smallest based on the markings, how did you go to the next smaller carrier when your oring was broken in?

The carriers were marked with lines and dots. Each line represents a 1. A dot represents a 0.5. Thus, a 1 line and 1 dot would represent a 1.5 carrier. 2 lines would represent a 2.0 carrier.
• 01-06-2008, 08:59 PM
DemskeetSkeet
Quote:

Originally Posted by athomas
If you didn't know which carrier was largest or smallest based on the markings, how did you go to the next smaller carrier when your oring was broken in?

The carriers were marked with lines and dots. Each line represents a 1. A dot represents a 0.5. Thus, a 1 line and 1 dot would represent a 1.5 carrier. 2 lines would represent a 2.0 carrier.

I did it originally atleast 6 months ago, sorry I am not a master like you are. I wish I was thats for sure, I know what this automag with retro valve and level 10 bolt can do, but I bought an ion and let my automag sit(which i shouldn't have). But now my Ion is broke(rear banjo fitting) And I would like to get this automag working. Which I know if I do it will be an amazing.

Thanks for your help thomas! You are an expert automag user.
• 01-07-2008, 09:22 AM
Red77
hey guys,
i took my classic valved lvl10 mag out this weekend and hit a wall (figuratively). the previous weekend everything was working fine. i had the second smallest carrier, two shims, and the middle size main spring, all that and shooting steady in the 290fps range. this past weekend it would not shoot in that configuration. i put on the gold main spring and it still would not fire, after that i left the gold spring on and moved down to the smallest carrier, and it still would not shoot. note:all configurations mentioned had two shims. any ideas as to what the issue/solution is?

Thanks
Pete
• 01-07-2008, 09:34 AM
secretweaponevan
Quote:

Originally Posted by Red77
hey guys,
i took my classic valved lvl10 mag out this weekend and hit a wall (figuratively). the previous weekend everything was working fine. i had the second smallest carrier, two shims, and the middle size main spring, all that and shooting steady in the 290fps range. this past weekend it would not shoot in that configuration. i put on the gold main spring and it still would not fire, after that i left the gold spring on and moved down to the smallest carrier, and it still would not shoot. note:all configurations mentioned had two shims. any ideas as to what the issue/solution is?

Thanks
Pete

Are you using CO2? Temperature fluctuations will affect pressure and therefor velocity.

Turn up the velocity.
Shorter mainspring.

You want the largest carrier that does not leak, not the smallest that will fire. Smaller carriers provide more friction/"stiction" and will cause the lvl 10 effect to kick in even when not encountering a jammed paintball.
• 01-07-2008, 12:58 PM
Red77
im using hpa with an 850 psi output. i tried turning up the velocity with all the settings i listed but that just made the valve vent air, no cycling still. i will try the larger carrier suggestion when i get the chance.

thanks secretweaponevan for the help
• 01-07-2008, 05:10 PM
athomas
Quote:

Originally Posted by Red77
hey guys,
i took my classic valved lvl10 mag out this weekend and hit a wall (figuratively). the previous weekend everything was working fine. i had the second smallest carrier, two shims, and the middle size main spring, all that and shooting steady in the 290fps range. this past weekend it would not shoot in that configuration. i put on the gold main spring and it still would not fire, after that i left the gold spring on and moved down to the smallest carrier, and it still would not shoot. note:all configurations mentioned had two shims. any ideas as to what the issue/solution is?

Thanks
Pete

If it wouldn't shoot with the 2nd smallest carrier, moving to a smaller carrier would only make the problem worst. You need to go to a larger carrier. Remove all the shims when tuning the level 10 setup. Then use the largest carrier that doesn't leak. After that, you can add the shims back in, but you probably don't have to.
• 01-11-2008, 07:48 PM
DemskeetSkeet
Hey I have tweaked a few things with the level 10 because the velocity will be too high, I am now getting pressure through the gun but it wont fire at all. I have the 1.5 carrier with 2 shims. It wont let me de-gas the gun unless I literally turn the tank off(I have an on/off drop forward and it wont even let me de-gas it with the drop forward)

Let me know what I did wrong.

Thanks
• 01-14-2008, 03:37 PM
athomas
Quote:

Originally Posted by DemskeetSkeet
Hey I have tweaked a few things with the level 10 because the velocity will be too high, I am now getting pressure through the gun but it wont fire at all. I have the 1.5 carrier with 2 shims. It wont let me de-gas the gun unless I literally turn the tank off(I have an on/off drop forward and it wont even let me de-gas it with the drop forward)

Let me know what I did wrong.

Thanks

If the gun can't fire, it can't get rid of the gas pressure out the front. Turning the ASA on-off to the off position only shuts off the tank, it doesn't get rid of the pressure in the system. Only taking the tank off, or removing a feed hose will do that.

If the gun won't fire, then the velocity isn't turned up far enough.
• 02-02-2008, 05:52 PM
foefumm
Are These the Correct Springs?
I recently purchased a new lvlX kit for my stock minimag, and am currently trying to install/troubleshoot it.
But I want to know if I have the correct parts. The instructions mention a "middle spring with one end cut".
These are the springs that came with my kit:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h9...m/DSC02610.jpg
It looks like I have 2 of the long length ones...the red one is just a hair shorter than the silver one. Are those the correct springs that are supposed to come with the kit? When I use the red(middle size?)spring I cannot get my gun to shoot, even with velocity turned up all the way.
Just need some input before I contact AGD...

Thank you
• 02-03-2008, 12:56 AM
secretweaponevan
Quote:

Originally Posted by foefumm
I recently purchased a new lvlX kit for my stock minimag, and am currently trying to install/troubleshoot it.
But I want to know if I have the correct parts. The instructions mention a "middle spring with one end cut".
These are the springs that came with my kit:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h9...m/DSC02610.jpg
It looks like I have 2 of the long length ones...the red one is just a hair shorter than the silver one. Are those the correct springs that are supposed to come with the kit? When I use the red(middle size?)spring I cannot get my gun to shoot, even with velocity turned up all the way.
Just need some input before I contact AGD...

Thank you

Yup, red spring is the "middle" spring. They used to use a cut one as a middle spring, but now use a red one that is uncut instead.

Quick LVL 10 instructions:
1. Break in carrier o-ring with 1000 shots.
2. Move broken-in white o-ring to largest carrier that does not leak.
3. If bolt sticks on squeegy test, add shims until it resets reliably.
4. Chrono marker to field speed. (this is important, don't just do it by sound)
5. If gun breaks paint (test with no loader and make an electrical tape string for paintball to hang only halfway in breach) use a longer mainspring (on the contrary, if bolt continuously "LVL 10's" or "chuffs" use a shorter mainspring).
6. Profit.
• 02-03-2008, 03:28 PM
foefumm
Thank you for the info, Secret. I was not sure if the red spring should be shorter than it is. Anyway I will do what you suggested & keep plugging away....wish I had a chrono :) . But I will go to a field to chrony this thing.
• 02-04-2008, 06:07 AM
athomas
Quote:

Originally Posted by foefumm
I recently purchased a new lvlX kit for my stock minimag, and am currently trying to install/troubleshoot it.
But I want to know if I have the correct parts. The instructions mention a "middle spring with one end cut".

It looks like I have 2 of the long length ones...the red one is just a hair shorter than the silver one. Are those the correct springs that are supposed to come with the kit? When I use the red(middle size?)spring I cannot get my gun to shoot, even with velocity turned up all the way.
Just need some input before I contact AGD...

Thank you

As mentioned, the red spring is the middle spring.

If the gun won't shoot, even with the velocity up all the way, it is generally a symptom of bolt stick caused by a carrier that is too tight. When setting up your level 10, make sure you remove all shims from your setup. That way you won't get any false leak indications. I wouldn't worry about putting the shims back in unless you have problems with the bolt not resetting after a chuffed shot. A chuffed shot is not the same as bolt stick, so don't add or remove shims to correct bolt stick.

For best performance, use the largest carrier that doesn't leak. After a few thousand shots, you may develop a slight intermittent leak. If that happens, go to the next tighter carrier using the same white carrier oring.

If you have the largest carrier that doesn't leak and the gun still won't shoot at the highest velocity setting, try putting a washer inside the velocity adjuster. That will allow you to get more pressure on the regulator spring pack to increase the velocity.
• 02-07-2008, 09:45 PM
zeroex
hi, i was dry firing my mag today, and the x-valve started to leak. i'm not sure if this is related to the lvl 10, but i wasn't sure if it was just the x-valve or the lvl 10 bolt. basically, the holding pin pops out when i gas up the mag, and it wont stay in. it was firing normally the other day, nothing taken apart or changed. any suggestions? thanks!

ps. i tried changing the velocity to see if anything would be different, but nothing did. thanks again!
• 02-08-2008, 12:01 AM
secretweaponevan
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeroex
hi, i was dry firing my mag today, and the x-valve started to leak. i'm not sure if this is related to the lvl 10, but i wasn't sure if it was just the x-valve or the lvl 10 bolt. basically, the holding pin pops out when i gas up the mag, and it wont stay in. it was firing normally the other day, nothing taken apart or changed. any suggestions? thanks!

ps. i tried changing the velocity to see if anything would be different, but nothing did. thanks again!

Where did it leak from; bolt, velocity adjuster, or on/off?

What do you mean by "holding pin"?
• 02-08-2008, 12:13 AM
Vicious_Bebop
Does anyone have a list of lvl 10 carrier sizes according to the markings? I have lost the disc and info I got with my lvl 10 bolt. Any help would be great.

I have been looking for an hour or so, but can't find it. So I hope I am not repeating.
• 02-08-2008, 12:16 AM
zeroex
Quote:

Originally Posted by secretweaponevan
Where did it leak from; bolt, velocity adjuster, or on/off?

What do you mean by "holding pin"?

sorry for my lack of terminology. its the on/off assembly; it pops out from the valve, and leaks from there. i tried lubing it, but that didn't work.
• 02-08-2008, 12:23 AM
secretweaponevan
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeroex
sorry for my lack of terminology. its the on/off assembly; it pops out from the valve, and leaks from there. i tried lubing it, but that didn't work.

When the valve is inside the body, and both are then secured to the rail, the rail should keep everything in place.
Is the body/valve wobbly on the rail, or are they both secure?
Does your on/off assembly have all the parts installed correctly?
Here is the link to the RT valve family's blow up diagram in pdf format:
http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/down...oexploded1.pdf
• 02-08-2008, 12:34 AM
zeroex
Quote:

Originally Posted by secretweaponevan
When the valve is inside the body, and both are then secured to the rail, the rail should keep everything in place.
Is the body/valve wobbly on the rail, or are they both secure?
Does your on/off assembly have all the parts installed correctly?
Here is the link to the RT valve family's blow up diagram in pdf format:
http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/down...oexploded1.pdf

mmm. thanks for the diagram. and yea, all the parts are correctly installed and the rail, body, and valve are secure. it shot fine just the other night. Didn't take it apart or touch it; it started leaking from the on/off assembly after i fired off one shot while dry firing. Also, it worked fine for the past year.

however, one thing that does seem odd is that the pin get stuck on the o-rings, while the top/bottom on off assembly gets blown out. do you think it could be old o-rings in that case?
• 02-08-2008, 12:44 AM
secretweaponevan
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeroex
mmm. thanks for the diagram. and yea, all the parts are correctly installed and the rail, body, and valve are secure. it shot fine just the other night. Didn't take it apart or touch it; it started leaking from the on/off assembly after i fired off one shot while dry firing. Also, it worked fine for the past year.

however, one thing that does seem odd is that the pin get stuck on the o-rings, while the top/bottom on off assembly gets blown out. do you think it could be old o-rings in that case?

Could be old o-rings, or your brass on/off bottom might be galled(smashed in/mushroomed), especially if it was on a pneumag before you bought it. Stock clippard rams have too much travel and can force the sear into the on/off bottom and gall the crap out of it.
• 02-08-2008, 12:56 AM
zeroex
Quote:

Originally Posted by secretweaponevan
Could be old o-rings, or your brass on/off bottom might be galled(smashed in/mushroomed), especially if it was on a pneumag before you bought it. Stock clippard rams have too much travel and can force the sear into the on/off bottom and gall the crap out of it.

Argh! I'm using a pneumag...is there anyway i can fix it? or would i have to buy a new on/off bottom/assembly?

if i do have to buy new parts, is there anything i can do to prevent the sear from smashing up the bottom?
• 02-08-2008, 01:00 AM
secretweaponevan
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeroex
Argh! I'm using a pneumag...is there anyway i can fix it? or would i have to buy a new on/off bottom/assembly?

if i do have to buy new parts, is there anything i can do to prevent the sear from smashing up the bottom?

Take a look at the hole in the bottom of the on/off bottom. Does the hole look smooshed, or "not round" anymore? If so, I'd send it to someone who is good at doing pneumags. You need a sear travel stop (through back of frame usually), or a spacer inside the stock clippard ram to limit the ram travel.

Deburring the on/off bottom shouldn't be too hard.
• 02-08-2008, 05:49 AM
athomas
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeroex
Argh! I'm using a pneumag...is there anyway i can fix it? or would i have to buy a new on/off bottom/assembly?

if i do have to buy new parts, is there anything i can do to prevent the sear from smashing up the bottom?

This is not a level 10 problem and should be moved to its own tech thread.

The galling of the bottom of the on-off assembly could make the on-off pin stick, but shouldn't make it leak. The orings that cause the leak are on the inside top of the bottom section and on the outside bottom. Both of these orings shouldn't be affected by galling. There could be debris from the pounding though. Try replacing both lower on-off orings. If the hole is smashed in, try reaming it out at the bottom only, to remove the burrs.

Further discussions on this to be posted in the thread below.