thanks again athomas, I believe im all good to go now.
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thanks again athomas, I believe im all good to go now.
Level 10 issues here.
I think the culprit may be a worn gold spring, as I've tried everything else.
I removed all the shims, and worked my way with the carriers to the best fitted one, with no leaks.
I'll pull the trigger and the lvl10 will kick in, but most often then not, I'll have to reset the bolt by pushing it back.
Aside from being a worn spring, is there anything I should look at?
well, if you used the largest (loosest) carrier that doesn't leak (using the same o-ring with the different sized carriers), and the bolt is not resetting after a breech obstruction, i would first oil the lvl 10 o-ring, then if that doesn't help try a different spring. seems like you're on the right track.
i've found the gold spring hits too hard though; it would reset during a breech obstruction but crack the paintball in testing. you may want to try a red spring, or a cut-down silver spring (place cut end towards bolt). or maybe the gold spring i was using was a regular lvl 7 spring...i don't know. use a spring that hits hard enough to push a paintball into a tight bore without resetting, but soft enough that it doesn't crack a paintball if you hold it halfway in the breech.
A properly working level 10 bolt will always reset, even if the bolt spring is weak. It will just do it a bit slower. You seem to have followed the proper procedure for getting the proper fitting carrier size, so there may be other factors coming into play. As long as you are using the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak using the same white powertube carrier oring, then that is all you can really do for that kind of reset issue.
When you fire the gun and hold the trigger in, how long does it take before the bolt stops weeping air out the front? If the answer is that it never stops, then it is more likely an on-off issue. If it stops after a few seconds (even quite a few), then the problem is that the carrier size is too tight. Having a carrier that is too tight even though it is the largest one that doesn't leak is a result of a bad carrier oring. If that is the case, change the oring and go through the tuning procedure again.
When I pull the trigger, it doesn't leak. No matter how long I hold it for. Is that a possible sign of something wrong?
No, that is good. It means your on-off is working properly and the problem is isolated to the powertube area. Try a new oring and keep increasing the carrier size until it produces a leak. Then use the previous one that didn't leak.
Are you using a stock AGD body and rail? When you dry fire, does the bolt reset? When you hold your hand over the end of the barrel and dry fire, does the bolt reset? When you hold the front of the bolt with your finger and pull the trigger, does it chuff and then reset?
I'm using a stock, ULE body, but an aftermarket rail. I'm using a rail from Luke's Customs. When I fire the marker, the bolt resets. When holding my hand over the end of the barrel and fire, the bolt resets.
When I hold the front of the bolt, and pull the trigger it chuffs and resets.
Those tests indicate that everything is working the way it should. Under what circumstances did it not reset? ie; Did it fire a ball and then not reset, or did it jam on a ball and not reset, etc? If it jammed on a ball and didn't reset, did it "chuff" when it did it?
Is the body sitting flat on the rail? Make sure the pim on the bottom of the body isn't bottoming out in the trigger frame screw hole area. Also, don't over torque the field strip screw. It can warp the valve - body - rail alignment.
Thank you, athomas! Your consistent replies to these most recent posts has allowed me effectively troubleshoot my own issues.
I discovered that my sear/trigger rod, though new and direct from AGD, was a bit too long for my intelliframe. I was having issues with the on/off until I adjusted the length based on the trigger pulled back with the safety engaged. (credit card thickness now)
I was then able to deal with my Level X issues, which turned out to be 1 carrier size too small. I was able to move up to the next carrier size( from 1 line to 1 line/1 dot) without leaking, whilst addressing bolt stick issues. She is now airtight and fires consistently without issues so far.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps68077df2.jpg
ive got a slight leak down the barrel on my valve, thought I had it tuned good went to shoot it today and this, the thing though is that if I slightly hold the trigger no leak... im guessing I have the wrong carrier size?
ive got a x-valve lvl 10 and I just changed all the O-rings in the valve. first time I shot it no leaks, could it be the carrier o-ring loosing up from being broke in giving me the wrong size carrier now?
Hey Thomas, I think the issue that I'm having with my Mag is due to the usage of using brittle paint. I'm talking paint that breaks from dropping it from a foot above the ground. I won't be able to confirm until I take my mag back to the field.
This is generally related to having too many shims installed. When you slightly hold the trigger, it starts to push the bolt back which moves the bolt stem vent hole away from the sealing edge of the carrier oring. If you remove the shims, it will allow the carrier and oring to sit farther forward which will allow the bolt stem vent hole to always be far enough behind the sealing edge of the carrier oring so that it never leaks.
no shims are installed
That means something else is causing your bolt to be too far forward. It can only be the sear or the position of the valve on the rail. If everything is genuine AGD, and new, then something is out of spec. You can adjust the parameters. Shave a tiny bit off the back of the powertube tip. That will allow the carrier to sit farther forward and keep the bolt stem vent hole from being exposed. Only do this if you are sure that everything else is in new condition.
ill try putting my valve into a different mag, if I still have a problem I guess ill get ahold of tuna
so I think I just might be special :tard: or my power tube tip wasn't tightened all the way. its fine that is all right now, back to the other valve I go, hopefully you don't have to hear from me for a while :p
Hmmm. A loose powertube tip should have allowed the carrier to sit farther forward allowing the sealing edge of the oring to remain in front of the vent hole and preventing a leak rather than making one. Maybe it being loose was more of an issue. I'm glad its working now, though.
My setup is an X-valve with ULT on/off. The rest is pretty damn close to stock minimag + intelliframe. The air comes from a ninja SHP pushing ~1200 psi.
About once every 100 shots or so my bolt is having trouble resetting. The gun will shoot, then hiss down the barrel with a limp trigger for a second or three before resetting. I think it happens more often while rapid firing (?).
I've have been using the longest, red spring.
Before this issue came about, I was using the next-half-sized-up carrier. While pressurized, the gun was prone to leaking down the barrel. This leaking would stop when the trigger had some pressure on it - both before and after the gun shot. Power tube oil would fix the leak temporarily, but it would come back within a pod or two. I think even while using this leaky-sized carrier, the medium-sized spring was sometimes having trouble resetting the bolt.
Is it accurate to label what I'm describing as bolt stick? What can I try to do to reduce this given I'm at the biggest carrier that doesnt leak and using the longest spring?
Thanks so much!
is your bolt spring old or worn out? is your grip frame screw too tight, or quickstrip screw too tight (or too loose)? it could cause the valve and body to be mis-aligned. double check that your rail bushing is in the rail. search the tech forum for bolt stick, if you haven't already. there are dozens of threads; you might be able to dig something up.
hunterp...hey man I'm headed to Extreme Paintball in Manor, TX tomorrow for the afternoon session. Come on out and lets get that mag up and running.
I just discovered that my field strip screw would back out after so many shots, resulting in on/off malfunctions and a slight leak. I tightened the screw and drew a hash mark parallel to the rail on the screw with a sharpie to track movement.
Sure enough, the marker would fire flawlessly until screw backed out approx 1/8 turn or so. The marker would then fail to fire and leak again. I used some teflon tape and hand tightened it, but repeated cycling forces are still strong enough to shake the screw loose. I've tightened it with pliers now, and that seems to have solved the problem!
Apparently my Level X doesn't need any shims, and is tuned using the 1.5 carrier and red spring. Ult is using 4 ult shims and 1 level X shim. Ninja shp 68/4500 tested at 1100 psi for output pressure.
Little help. I've been trying to tune my ule trigger but having some problems. DOn't know if its that I'm running a 3000 PSI empire tank or the shim adjustments. I order for the trigger to react properly do u need a high intake tank for the x-valve ULT Trigger to run properly? I had everything tuned nice before I put the ULE trigger in. When I put the ULT trigger in the bolt wouldn't re set after two or three shots. What coudl cause this? Also I ****ed up the foam tip on the bolt assembly by manually pushing the bolt in when it wouldn't reset. Can you glue the foam tip back on? If not how do you go about fixing this? Thanks
The 3000psi tank shouldn't be a problem unless the output pressure is lower than it should be. The level 10 bolt doesn't like to operate on low pressures. Low pressures have a tendency to expose any imperfections in the tuning that might work in most situations.
If the level 10 was properly tuned, we can assume it is the ULT that is causing the issue. Any air that moves past the on-off before the sear can catch the bolt will keep the bolt from properly reaching the reset position and will not allow the sear to continue its rotation, thus causing bolt stick. Too many shims in the ULT can cause a burst of air into the chamber when the sear is being rotated to the reset position. Try removing a shim or two and see if that helps.
The foamy can be replaced. Make sure the front of the bolt is thoroughly cleaned and degreased so that any epoxy/glue will stick. Use a good quality epoxy for best results, and glue the foamy back on.
Thanks for the advice guys. I think the infrequent bolt stick situation greatly improved by tightening up the frame and field strip screws an extra half turn or so. I now need an allen key to get the field strip screw off. I've been dry fire testing so far and there hasnt been a single bolt stick. I was able to get a couple sticks while dry firing before, so I'm optimistic it will be less temperamental on the fields tomorrow. :D
I did notice another minor but concerning behavior. This happened both before and after tightening the screws up, though much less after. After a shot, the bolt appears to reset per usual but there would be a quiet, brief hiss for about second before everything seals up. I think there is a *slight* motion in the trigger rod when the final seal is made and the hiss stops. I'm not sure which side of the sear the movement is coming from! Could be Lv 10 or ULT, but I suspect the bolt more since its been the historically temperamental one.
I forgot to mention in my original post that there are no shims in the power tube. I am using a 1.5 sized carrier. The 2.0 size carrier is the one that slowly leaked down the barrel until I pressed the trigger a 'lil, or oiled the power tube a LOT! :ninja:
The slight motion in the trigger rod when the final seal is made and the hiss stops, is an indication the the bolt is sticking and slow to reset. The fact that it is resetting and not staying forward due to a continued leak into the front chamber, is a good indication that it is the level 10 and not the ULT.
The slow leak until you press the trigger slightly is an indication that the bolt sits too far forward as if the powertube has too many shims installed. Since you don't have any shims installed, then the problem must be that your sear is worn or the valve is sitting too far back. If your rail bushing is in place, I would look at your sear.
If the leak stops when you slightly touch the trigger with the 2.0 carrier, it is an indication that it is the proper carrier for your setup.
athomas, I believe you hit the nail on the head with my valve sitting too far back. With the old body and the way I was screwing in the field strip screw, there would be an ever so slight movement when I pushed on the back of the valve. It was very slight, but noticeable. I'd guess that the small gap between the end of the body and the beginning of the fattest part of the valve was about %50 too big.
I have since gotten a new body and a new field strip screw. There is now no more movement when pushing on the back of the valve and it appears to be working well with the pod or so of paint I've run through it. If all continues to go well, I'm going to switch back to the 2.0 carrier per your recommendation. I'm hoping I'll also be able to step back down to the medium sized spring to reduce some recoil.
Thanks for all the advice!
I went to a bigger carrier today, because the other one felt tight to me. But now when I shoot, it leaks a tiny bit for like 1 second and then seals. This is with no shims. Will putting 2 shims in fix this or is my carrier to big? Also, it currently has the gold spring in it, but is says on AGD's website that the red spring should is what most people use and then a guide online says the red is for shooting between 270-300 and the gold is for 260 down. Is that true?
It is an X-Valve.
Use the largest carrier that doesn't leak. Best test for this - put the oring in the carrier and dangle the bolt from it. If it shakes loose after a few shakes, it's likely right. If it falls right off or doesn't move at all, it's not correct.
Shims will help with resetting, not leaks. All a shim will do is to alter the vent point of the carrier oring. If it's a slow reset on a caught ball, add a shim or two and try again.
Use the gold spring - it will be a bit easier to get running at the start. Once you get everything running, you can try the red spring (I use it), but gold is best for a brandy new set up so we can eliminate issues.
Thank you. It fires, then goes psssssst and seals. Every shot...fire, psssst, seal. I wasn't sure if people are running without shims or if everyone pretty much puts in the two suggested shims. It does this with no shims. I will add two and see if it seals up right away.
I don't use shims on mine at all and have no problems.
You have to understand, the bolt piston placement is a "tolerance" - it could be just a tad too long to vent correctly. This moves the vent point so the bolt will reset more reliably.
The understanding of the level 10 operation has changed since the guide was developed. It has been realized, that shims really aren't needed except in extreme cases. The shims are so thin, that if the bolt moves at all, then it will allow the vent hole to become exposed and vent the chamber air to allow it to reset. In the extreme cases where something in the gun setup is way out of spec or the tolerances are way off, then you can shorten the distance that the bolt needs to move by adding shims.
The job of the shims is to move the carrier oring closer to the bolt stem vent hole. If the bolt is already venting air, then shims won't help. If the gun if firing and is slow to reset, then shims won't help. In your case, adding shims will make the problem worst.
Since your valve is firing but is slow to reset, it usually indicates a carrier that is too tight.
How old is your gun setup? Have you checked the sear to see if there is any wear at the tip where it catches the bolt? If there is wear and the bolt is sitting farther forward than it should, then it could leak as if you had too many shims installed.
Here is the gun...I think it is newish. I bought it used:
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps912d2371.jpg
I will go down a carrier and see how it goes. It seems to me that the rail and body are from AGD with the rail being milled by Luke (same with the trigger frame) so things should not be too out of spec. The carrier I have in there is pretty darn loose. It seems to me that it bolt resets 100% fine and on time, but that a little air is getting around the o-ring until the valve fully pressurizes.
You can tell if the valve is resetting fast by how fast the trigger comes forward. The trigger can't come forward until the bolt is fully back in the reset position. If the bolt is resetting quickly, try going down a carrier size. If the bolt is slow resetting, try going up a carrier size.
Yep, that is the situation. The bolt is resetting fine, the carrier o-ring just takes a second to seal. I re-lubed and put in the the red spring and it was better, but guessing I am still gonna have to come down a carrier size, especially as it breaks in. Also, put the two shims in. The shims and spring changed the leak pattern to where it was just a very slight leak after fully resetting that lasted a little longer.
I liked the tension of the carrier o-ring and carrier combo, so do partially wonder about a nick in the o-ring, but they are pretty hard and I did not see any with a visual inspection. Good enough for now I guess and I will get to the game early Sunday and play around with it. Since I re-greased the reg, I don't know the velocity and that could be playing a big part right now. Thanks for the help.
OK I just want to make sure I am right before testing and trying to get everything settled, I only have my 22ci tank filled right now. In the middle of a game yesterday my mag started venting after a shot, I could get around this by turning off my air and back on again for another shot, but the process would just repeat. I got back to my car and added three drops of oil thinking that the carrier oring might be dry, that ended up stopping the vent at the end of each shot, but now the bolt is half cycling at full auto when the tank got close to empty the bolt slowed down enough for me to see that it was not completing the cycle.
It is a ULE Pnuemag with a logic frame, I am currently using the shortest spring, but it is rather old. Could my issue stem from the spring finally wearing out? I just have never seen this problem before and am not sure where to look. I do have a full set of new springs, and carriers.
Clarification: What are the possible causes of a automag full auto venting like a tippmann? Can the mainspring be behind this, or could it the carrier oring, or am I overlooking something?
well, testing a new spring is easy, but i would look at the sear and bolt lip for any excessive wear / chips.
Full auto is not a level 10 issue. That is usually an on-off issue, or a worn sear or bolt. The worn sear or bolt is usually a progressive issue that you can feel getting worst over time as you use your mag. It doesn't just happen all of a sudden. Therefore, I would say your problem might be on-off related. If the on-off oring is leaking air, then it lets air into the chamber before the sear can catch the bolt and causes the bolt to go forward again. The chamber is usually not fully charged so it results in a half cycle and not a fully charged shot. The leaking on-off can also cause the bolt to stick so that it isn't far enough back for the sear to catch it. That would result in the leaking air escaping out the front via the bolt stem vent hole. Change your on-off oring first, since it is the easiest to do.
Thank you I will try that, I also noticed last night that my spring was about 1 full coil shorter than my new parts kit's shortest spring. My sear and bolt both look fine, I have a spare lv10 kit to compare the bolt to and they look the same.
Edit: so I tore apart my on off assembly on my x valve and oring 22 was flat out gone... I think I found the problem.