So is the carrier supposed to float in the power tube? Or is tip suppoed to clamp it down?
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So is the carrier supposed to float in the power tube? Or is tip suppoed to clamp it down?
The tip is supposed to hold it down against a spring deeper in the valve. The spacers (washers?) are what regulates how hard that spring gets pushed against. The oring carrier should not be rattling.
There should only be one backing washer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nittany77
The carrier does not need to be tightened in place. The air pressure in the chamber will keep it pushed forward against the powertube tip. The shims keep it farther back in the powertube. If there are too many shims installed, the carrier oring gets pushed back past the vent hole in the bolt stem and it leaks.
The tension on the oring is adjusted by the size of the carrier, which is why there are several different sizes in the level 10 kit. It is very important to use the largest one that does not produce a leak. One that is too tight will prevent the bolt stem from sliding freely in the carrier oring and can actually stop the bolt before it is fully reset or can prevent the bolt from moving forward when the sear is released. These issues are referred to as bolt stick. The leaking of the bolt during bolt stick is caused by the carrier and oring tension on the bolt stem not allowing the bolt stem to slide into the oring. It pushes the carrier assembly back to the backing washer and the bolt stem vent hole remains exposed and leaks air.
The best tuning involves removing all the shims from the powertube first. Make sure there is only one backing washer. Install the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak with your oring. If you need to change carriers, use the same oring each time. It is the oring that you are adjusting. You should not need to install any shims, ever. They only adjust how far the bolt needs to travel before it can vent air and reset. If the bolt moves past the sear catch at all, it usually moves far enough to vent air.
There are no springs in the front valve section at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Newt
Awesome! Great explanation. It's funny how there's really no description of exactly how the spacers work. The instructions just say that they "control where in the forward stroke the air chamber starts venting", but not how, and the engineer in me wanted to know that. And the drawing of the assembly always shows carrier at the bottom of the tube, rather that pushed up against the tip. Anyway thanks for the help, I'll try this when I get home from work.Quote:
Originally Posted by athomas
okay, need some help with this one.
2.0 carrier, red spring, no shims: leaks down barrel
1.5 carrier, red spring, no shims: will not shoot.
1.5 carrier, gold spring, no shims: shoots once, but wont recock and vents down barrel.
1.5 carrier, gold spring, 2 shims: doesn't shoot, bolt moves about halfway into breach and vents down barrel.
Keep the shims out. They won't help you and will only create leaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beebs89
Make sure you turn up the velocity after you install a level 10 bolt system or install a stiffer spring.
Are you using the same white carrier oring for each carrier? Or, perhaps you have a bad carrier oring.
How old is your sear? A worn sear can cause the bolt to sit farther forward than it normally would. The bolt stem vent hole would be close to the sealing surface of the oring and could leak causing you to install a carrier size that is too tight.
So I'm really new to Mags and I just picked up an RT classic and I think it came with a level 10. Not really sure because the seller didn't tell me that it had one and I've never seen one before.
Anyways, when I air it up it leaks down the barrel but if I partially squeeze the trigger it stops.
If anybody could give me an idea where to start trying to diagnose this I would greatly appreciate it!
here's a pic
http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/a...5/IMG_2710.jpg
That is a level 10 bolt. You can tell by the smaller bolt stem at the back of the bolt.Quote:
Originally Posted by robertreed711
The symptoms you describe are related to having too many shims installed in the powertube. When you partially pull the trigger, the sear pushes the bolt back a slight bit so that the exposed vent hole is sealed by the carrier oring. Remove the shims so the carrier oring will be farther forward and it should be fine. I wouldn't use any shims in the powertube at all.
I'm sorry I'm so clueless but are the shims removed by removing the brass piece at the end of the powertube?Quote:
Originally Posted by athomas
Yes. Unscrew it and they'll be the first thing you see down the PT. They sometimes stick to the bottom of the PT tip.
I have x valve, lvl x bolt, 1200psi ninja reg.
Mag shoots fantastic, RT's like a gatling gun when I want it to. Will fire 1-3 balls with single trigger "plucking" (kinda like a guitar player to avoid too much time on the trigger.)
BUT most of the time it has a small leak down the barrel that goes away with light pressure on the trigger (go to a smaller spacer right?) the level x spacer that's there has no dots and no lines (which means it's the smallest one right?)
So how do I fix this? put a new o-ring in and start from scratch with the lvlx tune?
Thanks!
It sounds like you have the correct carrier installed now. The leak that goes away with slight pressure on the trigger is a result of too many shims installed in the powertube. Take them all out.Quote:
Originally Posted by aerosaaber
I don't think there are any spacers in there, only plastic washer type thing at the bottom. I'll have another look at it to be sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by athomas
If no shims are installed, another cause could be a worn sear or missing rail bushing.Quote:
Originally Posted by aerosaaber
sear is literally brand new and rail bushing is in place.
still have to check for spacers hiding in there.
what kind of issues would you see with a a missing rail bushingQuote:
Originally Posted by athomas
Generally, if the rail bushing is missing, it causes the level 10 bolt stem to be at the wrong location, but more importantly, the sear contacts the on-off pin at a different spot and at a different angle. It can cause timing issues and sticking. These can be very random because the valve can move back and forth the thickness of the bushing in both the forward and backwards direction. The total movement would be twice the thickness. Most of the time the bolt spring pushes the valve to the rear most position and it is held in place when the air charges the front chamber.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewar
I hate sounding so ignorant, so I appreciate your answers. The rail bushing is the one on the back of the rail correct, and not the twist lock thingy on the frontQuote:
Originally Posted by athomas
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewar
The person asking questions is never the ignorant one. The person who assumes the answer without asking the question is.
Ok, I have an issue with my Level 10 that I am hoping you guys can help me with. I have a 100% stock RT Pro with X Valve and Level 10 bolt. I am using a Ninja Air SHP reg with an output of approximately 1100 psi.
The gun is able to RT with no trouble at all, which is great, but every so often my bolt will stick forward and de-gas. I picked the gun up used, so I don't have all the spare parts that came with the Level 10 when new, so not sure how to proceed. I do have an X Valve parts kit that had a few Level 10 items in it, including shims. The gun currently has 2 shims. I tried 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 shims and the best was 2, but still had the problem of the bolt sticking forward. I do not have different carriers to try.
I have tried turning the velocity all the way up, but no change. Sometimes the bolt will return after it sticks forward and I can re-fire the gun, other times I have to use a squeegee to push it back. To me it almost seems as though the bolt spring is not strong enough to always return the bolt back. Please let me know if you have any suggestions.
Thanks in advance.
Could be the spring but I would tune the lvl 10 first just to make sure you have it setup right. If you have a spare oring kit. Take the spare spring out and install it. That will alleviate the spring being the cause.
The shims don't do anything for your level 10. Adding shims helps the bolt vent air air sooner. If the bolt vents air in any way already, then shims won't help, but may make the problem worst. Take out all the shims when tuning your level 10 to prevent shim induced leaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by rparker35
It does sound like you have bolt stick due to having a carrier size that is too tight. You need to get a larger carrier size. You should have an array of sizes so that you can correctly adjust the carrier oring tension of your level 10 oring and bolt setup. Without the proper carriers, you will be lucky to get it working properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by athomas
Thanks for the help everyone. Since I picked the gun up used, I don't have any different sized carriers. So, I just placed an order with AGD for a variety of carrier sizes, along with some sapre o-rings and a couple new springs. Hopefully once all that arrives I will be able to tune the Level 10 perfectly.
Thanks again.
UPDATE - Received the carriers, new spring, and other spare o-rings from AGD. I replaced all the o-rings in the power tube, removed the shims, added the new bolt spring, and then tried out different carriers until it was perfect. Gun now shoots very well with no leaking down the barrel and no bolt stick. Thanks for the help guys!
Alright, so I got an x-valve a couple weeks ago and I've been having some problem tuning it. I got it to shoot pretty well now but if you hold the trigger, it'll leak for a couple seconds then stop. The level 10 works pretty darn well since I tried to shoot as fast as I could and nothing. I've shot a bunch and all I've gotten were barrel breaks not breech breaks. So any ideas on my problem with the little leaking? I'm using the .5 carrier size, the medium spring, and 2 shims. Thanks Tom.
Take the shims out and recheck the leak. I run (like alot of guys here) 0 shims in the level 10 on 3 different RT valves, and 1 shim in my classic valve.Quote:
Originally Posted by DCx7
The tiny leak for a couple of seconds is normal for some level 10 setups if the sealing edge of the oring is close to the vent hole. It leaks until the oring gets pushed forward past the vent hole enough to seal the bolt stem. Remove the shims and it should go away. If not, then I wouldn't worry about it as long as it isn't a continuous leak.
Alright thanks guys, I'll check if there's anything else wrong when I fill up my tank.
Hey guys, I'm trying to fix up my wife's RTP and her LX hasn't been tuned for many years now and leaks down the power tube. I've also misplaced all the carriers, shims, spacers, orings, etc. If I may ask, what's the part list/count that normally comes with a new LX kit?
I'd love to be able to order these parts from AGD and get it fixed ASAP. Thanks!
A new LX kit comes with everything needed for a level 10 installation. It includes the bolt, bolt springs, carriers, shims, powertube tip, orings. If you already have the level 10 bolt installed, all you need are some carriers, a bolt spring, and a few orings.Quote:
Originally Posted by gibby
You should order a range of carrier sizes from 0 to 2.5. You won't need to order the size that you already have installed. Order a couple of extra white carrier orings. Order at least one extra middle bolt spring(I think they are only available in long now) and a short one. Order a couple of shims (although you shouldn't ever have to install them unless there is a major tolerance issue with your sear/rail setup. You can still use them to shim your on-off assembly.
You should also make sure you have a spare valve oring kit if you don't already have one.
Take the shims out of the level 10 setup you have now. It might help.
AWESOME! Thanks for the reply and the advice! I'll let you know if I have any issues. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by athomas
Ok, I finally got my x-valve/level 10 perfectly tuned. I put a paintball with some tape on it, put it halfway in the breech, pulled the trigger, *CHUFF* and then it recocks, paintball perfectly fine. Also, I have a 45ci ninja tank and a a guerilla 62/3k steelie tank. With the steelie, it rips but with the ninja tank it just single balls and I can't get it to rt. The ninja tank is stock adjustable reg but it's set to 700-850ish psi output and the guerilla steelie is just a regular guerilla regulator. Will a difference of that much psi mean the difference between an rt and a single balling x-valve? Like if the ninja tank is at say....800 and the guerilla is at 850?
You need a higher pressure to become reactive, especially with a level 10 bolt system installed. Another part of the equation, is the flow rate of the regulator and air lines of the gun setup at the desired pressure output. High pressure flow rate is not affected as much by airline restrictions as lower pressures. The mag valve is not supposed to be reactive, but will be in its native state with a level 7 bolt and a high flow 850psi tank. Once you put a level 10 bolt on it and lower the input pressure, you reduce the reactivity by a large amount.Quote:
Originally Posted by DCx7
Ok guys I have a classic rt that I installed level ten on. On first air up I got leaks down the barrel after I pulled the trigger, pulling trigger again did not change anything. Took apart, change carrier, took out shims and put back together. Now I have no leaks but no trigger pull. When I air it up I feel the pressure and sear on the trigger, but when I pull the trigger I get no shot. There is a light tension on the trigger almost like its on a very weak spring when I pull it, trigger bounces back to be pulled again.
So what am I over looking, sure its something simple.
Thanks.
Bump up your pressure. It take a little more to over come the lvl 10 and spring. If you have the silver spring installed remove it. Do your initial tune with the gold then fine tune it you want to with the silver. The silver spring will need to be cut to attain what ever FPS your looking at achieving.
As mentioned, you will need to increase the velocity setting (chamber pressure) to fire the level 10 mag. The level 10 takes a higher chamber pressure to overcome the bolt spring force due to the smaller bolt stem diameter at the carrier oring.Quote:
Originally Posted by C_losjoker
Tried that, change and used different springs, even played with sear length. Got the same results. Going too try going up one carrier, see what happens. Now its getting personal.Quote:
Originally Posted by athomas
The sear/trigger pin length shouldn't make a difference unless the trigger pin is constantly in contact with the back of the trigger when the gun is aired up. If there is a gap behind the trigger when you hold the trigger against the safety, then it should be good to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by C_losjoker
Try the shorter gold spring, first. The gun should fire with that spring installed. Its a good idea to check the carrier as well. Use the largest carrier than doesn't produce a leak. Remember to use the same oring in each carrier that you try. Keep the shims out of it.
So took her completely apart, included the valve. Greased everthing back up, oil. And as I was putting her together, decided to check fittings. Last one I blew into was not flowing. Took it off and attached to inside of the fitting was a little brass filter. Whole time it was this damn thing blocking the flow of air, took it off and she shoots fine.
Sometimes its the simplest of things that we overlook. Years ago people used to put those filters in to catch rust and debris from old CO2 tanks. There shouldn't have been one on the RT since they don't use CO2.Quote:
Originally Posted by C_losjoker