Warriors Super Guns

Nice marker, thought about anodizing it?

I have to agree with some of the other posts here though on a few issues.

1) The exposed wire… looks cheap AND is a breakage issue if hit. Were you all half asleep?

2) I also dislike the front grip (if only from a cosmetic standpoint). It has always looked like a dog chew toy to me. Ever thought of changing that?

3) When making a new product, or new ANYTHING, an exhaustive search for patents, copyrights, and even just unregistered use is crucial. Most of the time this process is done by people specifically trained FOR that kind of work. This is because even if you came up with an idea without any outside stimulus, if it WAS done before you, you CAN’T take credit for it. Even if it was done and NOT registered, it is STILL covered by Copyright and Patent laws as long as the unregistered use can be documented and verified.

Tom, YOU know this (or darn well should). I know this modification is not a “production” thing, but being that you are not just some back yard hobbyist, it surprised me that since you KNEW Jeff made either the exact same modifications or darn near close, you don’t admit its influence or at least coincidence. Poor form.

Trying to slip under the radar? Come on, you are too big of a man for that.

However, on another note: Is there any reason why the elbow is clear (actually opaque white)? This along with the exposed wire just makes the overall look “slapped together” in feel. If there is a reason, (besides “It was what we had laying around”) I would be interested in hearing it. If not, might I suggest putting on a black elbow?

This would make a much smoother transition between the black hopper and the chrome body, as well as get rid of the cheap look of the current elbow in comparison to the other parts of the marker. And if this marker was anodized to match your teams colors… WOW

I would have to say, good start…. How about bringing it all together?

Quote:

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Originally posted by AGD:

Before this gets out of hand I should point out Jeff had very little to do with these guns. The custom parts were prototyped by me and Eric my engineer. The rail, grip and valve are stock components. I cut down the bodies and did the intelifeed mods myself.

AGD

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Guys,

With the last few posts before this one I'm posting now...people are putting Tom down for his post. I think people have misunderstood him.

I think he was answering the few posts above his, one or two people asked if Jeff worked on these markers. Tom simply answered that, saying that Jeff took no part in working on these super guns.

In no way did he say that all the mods were his ideas.

I think some people owe Tom an apology.

[This message has been edited by st6212 (edited 07-21-2001).]

st6212,
No offense is intended, but I think you missed the spirit of people’s critique. I don’t think anyone had any confusion as to the fact that Jeff did NOT work on the marker. In fact, after going back and reading all the posts again, I can clearly see that people DON’T think Jeff actually worked on the marker.

What IS said, is that the Marker looks so similar to Jeff’s work that the coincidence appears to be more than that, “coincidence”. And there is nothing wrong with that. Most of the great things we have today are directly from people taking someone’s great idea(s) and doing it better, or making it affordable for the masses.

What people found displeasing is that such a noticeable similarity is being passed off as a non-issue. Thus the “give credit where credit is due” comes into play. What if you designed a car that looked SWEET, but after doing so you found out that it looked almost exactly like the latest corvette? Does that take away from your great work? Heck no, it was just done before.

Now, add to that if you came up with designs consistently BEFORE someone released similar designs, but that other person was a big company? Wouldn’t you feel slighed, or even potenitlaly ripped off? I am not saying this is the case with Jeff and his work, but it IS odd. And “perception” is a powerful thing. And businesses (such as Tom and AGD) have to pay a bit closer attention to “perceptions”.

Noone was attacking Tom, just pointing out that his denial of any “Jeff” influence seemed a bit… well, you know. And should be he held to a higher standard than the rest of us? You bet! Anyone in a position higher than most is ALWAYS held to higher standards… or should be.

How do u get the intellifeed into the revy? Will that intellifeed be like the ones on the 2x frames?

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-68 Classic Automag
-SP Proggresive barrel
-Lapco drop forward
-PMI gas through
-12 volt revolution
-Crossfire 68CI 3K Stubby
-Microline fittings

Ok I give credit where credit is due. Jeff made the first gun that these are based on. The Warriors saw his and wanted duplicates. The Warrior guns do not have as many exposed wires as Jeffs gun.

AGD

Thanks Tom. You showed great class.

dont worry tom we love you and your product. or atleast i do!

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automag:(verb)1to eliminate from a paintball game, 2to be better than a spray and prey player with a cocker or angel, 3to kick some major arse

^ wants to marry Tom, but on a note those gun's do look a little slapped together but they are 'protypes' see go easy on tom

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Team Wannabeez

Msteele200@earthlink.net

Having shots jeffs gun, and seen it, it's not all that. It works for Jeff and he has the resources to do what he liked to the gun. I personbally liked what he did to the grip frame. ( Removing the grip bumb, the finger grove mod etc ) but he gun was a cut down Automag Rail, and it was a exersise in what HE wanted in a gun.

AGD mde the Emag with extra material so peopel COULD do work on them to make them lighter and mill neat snitz into the parts.


Jax saw and linked Jeffs gun and ask for a copy of it for them. Tom and Eric put a lot of wokr into OTHER aspects of that gun that you all know nothing about. The front grip isnt NEW its an old *** VL Grip big whoop. You can cut the battery connector off your Emag and pop the hole out and mount a grip with a STOCK rail, nothing special nothing extra needed.

Personally I like the Stock look better some dont. To call the Jax guns copies of Jeffs would be a discredit to the work TK and Eric put into the new parts of that gun.

So when you attack Tom's creditablity you attack all of the good work he has done in testing and product devel. So go jump in a lake.

As for the milk white elbow, that's the stock AGD elbow that ships with new guns, so it was just "around" for pictures to be taken for this forum.

BTW - I would also like to point out that typically unless otherwise stated in a contract, any work done for a company by an empolyee while working for the company becomes company properity. So technically speaking that "design" belongs to AGD.

-Robert

Robert,
Thanks for the info about the elbow. I was hoping that was what it was. How about the exposed wire? Couldn’t it at a minimum be secured to the marker? Heck, even zip stripping it would be better than keeping it as it is. LOL I am sure you guys have thought about this issue as well….. Like to share your solution with us?

I would like to make a clarification for you however…. I don’t think anyone was making an attack on Tom’s credibility… just the “appearance” of it. You may not want to admit it, but when people make statements about the “look” of a marker, and deep down, the way this new one looks is DIRECTLY caused by someone else’s work (other than who were stated as its direct creators)… it is best to just say so.

I am sure Tom knew exactly what, at least I, was saying. People made the comments… and Tom made a post dismissing any involvement of Jeff or his work. This was not exactly accurate. Tom knew this, and he rectified the situation. End of story.

As for employees working for a company, and who has actual rights to a “design”, “system”, “idea”, etc… you are correct. However, there seems to be a bit more to this than that. Legalities? You bet. Who did what for whom? Who did what for whom at what time, and on who’s behalf? See? Little things matter in big ways.

Example:
If Jeff was working for AGD, and/or on behalf of AGD, and the design was in direct conjunction with the aforementioned conditions, the design IS AGD domain. However, even if Jeff was working FOR AGD, but not directly on behalf of AGD when he came up with any said design… guess what… it is NOT AGD domain.

LOL I know, it can get confusing. But I am just making a point. And that point is, that simply being an employee of a company does not automatically give the company rights to ALL work done by that employee during the time of employment. To think so is a drastic oversimplification, and just not legal fact.

And if Jeff was an employee of AGD when he came up with the design, AND the design was part of his work done on direct behalf of AGD… what is the big deal, and why not simply state so? After all, YOU guys did the work, right?

I think what stuck in some folk’s craws, was the seemingly underhanded way that the inspiration for the current marker was dismissed. THIS caused the “perceptions” that I wrote about earlier. And this could have been avoided quite simply.

I know you all think the world of Tom, he is a great guy, but I think even HE knew what had happened. And please don’t try to make the Posters feel as if THEY did something wrong by wanting things to be said. It looks like people have great respect for EVERYONE, Tom, Jeff, all you guys… they just wanted recognition for those who deserved it. And frankly, if the inspiration came from Jeff’s work (as it DID) no pride would have been lost by saying so from the beginning.

When all is said and done, you guys did the actual work, YOU get the spotlight. But even when customizing cars, inspirations often come from other manufacturers, or customizers… but THEY don’t feel threatened that their work will go unnoticed by saying that some other guy sparked the idea for their masterpiece(s). Neither should you.

Remember… “perception” is a two edged sword.

Tom did the right thing. And I don’t think (or at least I hope) that HE does not feel that his actual credibility was attacked, just the image created, but then fixed.


[This message has been edited by shartley (edited 07-21-2001).]

- not sure if anyone else noticed... but look at the tank it looks different. Is that one of the new 4500psi tanks?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Lester:
- not sure if anyone else noticed... but look at the tank it looks different. Is that one of the new 4500psi tanks?

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yes i noticed that as well, the fiber wrapping looks like the ones seen on 4500 tanks. Hopefully it is!

bill gates came up with his operating system while working for ibm...but instead of paying him a top salary, they let him start his own company...

sov82~

I guess all this brings up a good question or two.

What "new" things were done to these guns that Rob was talking about?

Does Jeff work on the development side of AGD? If Jax wanted their guns modled after his gun, then maybe that's where he should be.

jerky

yknow...im thinking you could put a straight microline fitting into the hopper, then run the wires through it, either straight into the grip, or into a 45/90 degree elbow screwed into the grip at some point. be a cheapo way to protect it.

awesome guns.

Personally, all this wrangling about who designed it and who owns the idea is just beating a dead horse. The real people who need to know or care are Jeff and Tom, not us.

It's AGD's business, not ours. Arguing the point is an exercise in futility that makes you look like a nitpicking fruitloop.

MHO, of course.

DR

Quote:

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Originally posted by DarkRipper:


It's AGD's business, not ours. Arguing the point is an exercise in futility that makes you look like a nitpicking fruitloop.

MHO, of course.

DR

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I was actually thinking the same thing about Airgun. Notice how neither of the people who work at airgun actually had anything nice to say about Jeff's guns?

Rob and AGD both tried to say he didn't influence these new guns and then Rob actually said he didn't like what Jeff has done. Jax Warriors sure like it. That's why these guns were made.

I would think that Airgun would support each other more. It is disapointing considering I've always liked how they did things.

D.

i think that it all comes down to making some people look better than others. Its obvious that tom wants to go around thinking to himself that he is like god of the world and no one is smarter than him and he comes up with everything, when in fact there are others at the company that deserve some time in the sun as well....oh yea....whos name is going to be on the superbolts tom?? thats right, not the poeple that designed them and made them...