SEAR MOD: CHUFF less with your ULT, still SAFE for your BOLT

[xrancid_milkx]

Heres a question that might have already been asked, but

What where to happen if you did this mod WITHOUT the ULT (with retro/xvalve)?

I assume a smaller trigger pull, but heavier pull?

[Jack & Coke]

Your assumption is correct!

The ULT is what makes this mod attractive... at least to me :)

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

exchange

OK, here's the lowdown on the effect of this mod, regardless of if you use the XValve, RT Valve, or the ULT'd XValve. Some variability might exist but this is the rough figure.

Old pull distance of the sear rod=OD
Old pull weight required to push the sear rod=OW
New pull distance of the sear rod=ND
New pull weight required to push the sear rod=NW

OD X OW = ND X NW

So...

XValve only
48oz OW X .3inch OD =20% mod= 57.6oz NW X 0.25inch NP
ULT
15oz OW X .3inch OD =20% mod= 18oz NW X 0.25inch NP

It has to be an even exchange, 20% distance reduction for 20% weight increase. So with the XValve only a .05 inch reduction would add 9.6oz, with the ULT it would only add 3oz.

J+C, the distance figure I included isn't accurate but illustrates the idea with the roughly accurate weight figures. I am not sure what weight/distance ratio is optimal but I'm thinking if it works, a 30% mod would work well. 19.5oz (1lb, 3.5oz) pull and a 30% pull reduction. The fun part... finding exactly where the new hole goes.

[personman]

I saw that thread a while ago about raising the whatsitscalled higher and it looked like a good idea to me. I chuff a little too much with my ULT, so if you guys need someone to test one, you know who to call
also I was wondering if you raised the thigny to the highest point it would go, how short and hard would the trigger pull be? (useless experiment )

[Jack & Coke]

Hey guys...

I stopped by my local paintball store to visit with a few cool guys there. One of the guys, Danny, is young, laid-back, open minded and really cool, can walk his cocker (mech). He pretty good on the trigger!

Since he's not so familiar with mags and the mag trigger, I wanted him to do a blind test of my sear mod. Kinda like a Coke vs Pepsi challenge.

Configuration #1

Stock RT on/off + stock sear

He could not walk the trigger.

But he could twitch/fan the trigger incredibly fast!

NO CHUFF.

I asked him to close his eyes and remember what the trigger feels like. ...to remember the pull length and weight and how fast he could shoot.

Configuration #2

ULT on/off + stock sear

Immediately noticed the softer trigger pull.

He could walk the trigger!

He could also twitch/fan the trigger very fast!

Lots of CHUFF!

He said he liked the soft trigger, but did not know why the gun was malfunctioning (chuff). I told him it was like short stroking his cocker. After that he made a more conscience effort to make complete trigger pull cycles. He chuffed less, but his ROF also went down big time.

Configuration #3

ULT on/off + MOD sear

He could not walk the trigger.

But he could twitch/fan the trigger incredibly fast!

NO CHUFF!!!

He said this set up felt somewhere in between the configuration #1 and #2.

He said he definately noticed the pull was shorter, and crispier.

He said he liked this setup the best.

Although he could not walk the trigger, he said he would give up a few BPS if it ment a greatly reduced chance of chuffing.

From my observation, he was twitching/fanning the trigger about as fast as configuration #1... but with MUCH LESS EFFORT.

He said configuration #3 felt: "just right... short and crisp".

For what it's worth... for those of us who are spoiled by e-triggers, mechanical trigger challenged, and very frustrated with all the chuffing associated with the ULT, maybe a sear MOD like this is the answer...

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

compromise

I think it's all about balance, I would LOVE to walk a Mag trigger reliably but with the ULT you can't without risking chuffing, still not light enough and distance is an issue. I frankly think it is the distance and lack of reactivity that drops my single-finger ROF the most and really risks chuffing. So since the amount of work (forceXdistance) required to cycle a Mag is not low enough to shoot alternating fingers, I would rather use a two-finger pull with a real short distance to shoot, even if it means it's not as light as it can be.

Now two reasons AGD might oppose this:

1.) It doesn't follow the Ultra-light engineering principle and marketing schtick but that would be a dumb reason to avoid this if no other reason existed.

2.) By increasing the weight I bet the retro effect strengthens which AGD is rumored to be trying to get away from. I am still convinced there is a way to use it as an advantage and lighten the pull but nothing yet in that arena of thought that has worked.

J+C, glad to hear your friend liked it, no chance you know how much you changed it by (new pull weight/distance compared to original)? I think this idea should definitely go Beta, see how people like it.

And on the pepsi/coke reference, just saw that new vanilla coke vs. pepsi truck ad on TV and just realized... the pepsi truck is bouncing and it's carrying carbonated soda... not smart Hate to be the first person to open one of those.

Anyways, sounds like we got the solution to minimize chuffing. I think the Mag would be more appealing to a first-time user if it had this mod since if they picked a mag up and on shot #2 sends a ball halfway down the barrel and shot #3 hits it and ends up with paint oozing out of the barrel, they would never buy it. Plus in rapid fire it would be much harder to "skip a beat" and chuff.

This allows a compromise between the two trigger pull components that are EQUALLY important: length and weight

[abaez]

Hey jack! Are you going to the socal mini meet this sat? I've got an extra sear lying around I'd pay you a few bux to drill it if you could and let me try this out? Sounds exciting!

Edit: Errr I just saw what you did.. what exactly would you use to measure 15" up the arm to drill the hole?

[Jack & Coke]

I'm not going to be able to make it to this meet... I'll be with the family in Palm Springs.

Regarding the hole... I did not pick 0.15" as a reference to drill. I just guessed where I should drill the hole. I had no idea it was going to be 0.15". After I drilled it, I measured it with my digital calipers and it was 0.15".

I'll try 0.20" on my next sear.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

DISTANCE

Hey J+C, just wondering is that 0.15" from the pivot point or making the hole .15" CLOSER to the center? I would definitely say closer is better so .1" from the center would be nasty. Still got my 50% mod in mind, got to work on it.

Everybody, here is a link, it relates to this somewhat:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=97625

The spring idea in this thread is shot for now, but the idea of a concave sear tip to allow less pull distance but due to the wider sear tip, still distribute the bolt pressure equally and actually reduce chipping. Check it out but please keep ideas related to it in the other thread if they don't apply to this one. J+C, you know I would value your input in that as well. If this can reduce the distance needed to be equal to that which the ULT on/off requires to cycle (as noted by it's ability to go into runaway with too many shims and catch the sear tip in the process) while distributing the pressure put on the bolt so chipping doesn't happen, we can reduce the pull without increasing the weight then use your idea J+C to reduce it even further. Let me know your thoughts and I look forward to hearing what happens with your next sear.

[Jack & Coke]

Re: DISTANCE

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY


Hey J+C, just wondering is that 0.15" from the pivot point or making the hole .15" CLOSER to the center?

The 0.15" measurement is the distance between the new hole and the original hole.

[Fuji]

Not to be too nitpicky. I was wondering if you meant 0.15" from the center of the hole or from the edge of the hole? I don't have the tools at present to complete this mod, but it does have my attention.

[xrancid_milkx]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Your assumption is correct!

The ULT is what makes this mod attractive... at least to me :)

So without a ULT, this mod would make a shorter, heavier pull (xvlave/retro).

Heres my question, by making the trigger pull smaller, would it make it easier to get trigger bounce with an xvalve/retro if marker did not have ULT mod?

(Note I have very little knowledge about anything and everything when it comes to moding a marker)
I thought since the pull force was increased, so would the return force for the sear, allowing trigger bounce much easier. If this was the case, it would be a fun mod for rec-play. But knowing my knowledge on this subject, I couldn't farther from being right

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

bounce

Yes, you are right, pull weight/retro weight is roughly 1:3, so if the pull is 4lbs, the retro could be up to 12lbs and could open the door for bounce. That is why using it with the ULT would probably be the optimal setup for tourneys. It will still be exceptionally lower than the 9lb return of the former on/off but would be more than the 15oz pull's. If we did a 20% mod, it would probably add about 9oz of return force which could help reduce chuffing but not be so much that it'll cause issues.

[pbgunrunner]

My 2 cents worth....

one positive effect that you may have failed to consider is how your body reacts to the heavier trigger pull. One of the ways I get around newbies short-stroking cockers is to add a bit more sear/lug engagement, thus requiring more pressure to fire the gun, then, since it takes a bit for your body to respond and "stop pulling" the trigger as the sear breaks, your muscle contraction automatically finishes the stroke. The heavier the pull, the harder the contraction and the longer the delay in relaxing the muscles. Your making the lever less effective increases the bio-mechanical force needed to pull the trigger thus limiting your ability to short stroke. Great solution to a nagging problem, keep up the good work!

[MattG]

JACK AND COKE YOU ARE THE JESUS OF PAINTBALL!! BE MY FATHER PLEASE!!! NICE WORK MY BOY!!!!