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Thread: MAX ROF setting on EMAG 2.4 board = INCORRECT!

  1. #31
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    There's no need to retest. As KB said. This is what happens when you don't have shot buffering. If you put me on a dragun frame set for 10bps, I won't do more than 8 or so. MY timing would have to produce a pull every 100ms to get that. If I make one pull less than 100ms I will no longer get that shot.

    What your'e describing is old news. You're also making a big adoo over somthing that's well known. If you dont' have shot queing you can NOT hit the rof the board is set for without a machine.

    The flaw isn't in software. It's in your hand. What you're asking for a shot que. And that is coming with the 3.0 software.

    Oh yea, one more thing. If your'e minimum interval was 137ms. You're only 12ms late for the pull. 12ms is VERY VERY VERY short. And it's actually quite good for what you're describing. There's an easy solution. Set the rof higher.
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  2. #32
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    Originally posted by nerobro
    There's no need to retest. As KB said. This is what happens when you don't have shot buffering. If you put me on a dragun frame set for 10bps, I won't do more than 8 or so. MY timing would have to produce a pull every 100ms to get that. If I make one pull less than 100ms I will no longer get that shot.

    What your'e describing is old news. You're also making a big adoo over somthing that's well known. If you dont' have shot queing you can NOT hit the rof the board is set for without a machine.

    The flaw isn't in software. It's in your hand. What you're asking for a shot que. And that is coming with the 3.0 software.

    Oh yea, one more thing. If your'e minimum interval was 137ms. You're only 12ms late for the pull. 12ms is VERY VERY VERY short. And it's actually quite good for what you're describing. There's an easy solution. Set the rof higher.
    nerobro,

    I'm not late on the pull... just look at all the other tests at different ROF setting. If i'm able to pull a 125 ms on the ROF setting = 10 then why won't the ROF = 8 register it?

    Maybe it's old news for you, but new news to me.

    Again... it's the same pattern for all settings.

    Try it yourself if you don't believe me.

    If set my gun a ROF = 8, should I not be able to have a minimum shot to shot interval of 125 ms?

    ...and the arguement that I'm not pulling the trigger at the right time is naive considering the results shown in the other ROF test tables.

  3. #33
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    jack i think they are right on the whole thing....if i set my emag to 8 bps, then pull as fast as i can...i only get around 6 bps.

    but if i set it on 8 then i pull it rather slow i can get very close to 8 a second.

  4. #34
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    here is a little quick sound deal i did.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #35
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    I redid the ROF test and shot "slower" and I had the same results as the first test.

    I could not find a time interval of 125 ms or even close to it.

    Skoad.. could you measure the distance between the peaks for me? Show the shortest interval.

  6. #36
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    I look at your graph in photoshop and calculated the time interval for shots 5 and 6 to be EXACTLY 125 ms.

    Excellent!

    I will keep trying to shoot at different speeds in hit the timing "just right". So far no dice... which is really confussing.

    Would you mind posting the sound clip?

  7. #37
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    ok...

    I've just recorded another test at ROF = 8

    Again... I get the same results!

    I pulled the trigger at various speeds.

    After a little over 300+ trigger pulls, the smallest time interval I could find was 135 ms!

    I have no idea of how Skoad got 125 ms.

    Did you pull the trigger? Walk it? Rake it?

    Was is semi-auto only? or burst mode?

    Was it an Emag?

    2.4 board?

    Recording of only the noid?

    I'm very curious why I'm unable to hit 125 ms on ROF 8 during my tests...

    I'd really like to know if there's an error in my testing procedure, recroding methods, analyzing methods...

    Can anyone else help us out?

    TESTING PROCEDURE:

    1. Set EMAG ROF to 8
    2. Remove the left grip panel.
    3. Place a computer mic next to the noid.
    4. Hit recrod on your sound editing program.
    5. Pull the trigger at various speeds via normal pull, walking, and raking... (NO air, just the noid clicking)
    6. Use a wav editor to analyze the wac pattern of the sound file you just recorded.
    7. Take a screenshot of the smallest recorded interval from shot-to-shot.
    8. post here and let us know what you found.

    If you'd like, repeat this test for ROF 10, ROF 12, ... ROF 20.

    Thanks.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #38
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    HE has better hands than you jack. That's it. :-) Welcome to the world of electronics.

    Again, this is what shot queing fixes.

  9. #39
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    well...I think the question is why it took till 3.0 to add the queuing...oh well...

  10. #40
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    How do you think shot queing should work?

    Since there are probably different ways to implement a queue, how should it be programmed?

    In the case of ROF = 8, should if hold on to a shot and then fire it a 125 ms? If I rake the trigger at greater than 8 cps, should we see a uniform stream of paint at perfect intervals of 125 ms?

    Jsut currious...

  11. #41
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    if it was my opinion...I would say the later...that if you pull faster than 8bps you should see a uniform 8pbs stream of paint..but that's my opinion..

  12. #42
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    I go away for the weekend and the research goes wild....

    It could be that the timing is off in semi mode. We never actually tested it we just timed it in full auto mode and assumend it was the same for semi.

    In any case all this will be water under the bridge with 3.0. The new software is working and in testing. The latest version allows for trigger pulls INSIDE the solenoid pull window and should allow for max walking speed. I haven't shot it myself yet so I dont know how well it works yet. I will let you know this week.

    AGD

  13. #43
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    shot ques get really funny once you start getting into how they really work.

    for instance, the bob long boards in the intimidator will hold onto a trigger pull event for 7 tenths of a seccond. that's AGES.

    for example. We'll use 10bps as an easy number to play with. if we have a shot que, with a maximum buffer of one shot. we'd need it to last AT LEAST 1/10 of a seccond to ensure smooth fireing at 10bps, with any input greater than 10.

    But lets get to reality. Even with a 10bps setup, and inputs at say.. 11bps. the inputs won't be evenly spaced. So things can quickly run amuck. Without a multi shot que, or a long que duration, you may still see the "lower than set" rof.

    For example. We have a 100ms long, 1 shot que. If you pull one shot at time 0, a seccond shot a 90ms, another at 110ms, the que would have fired that shot for you at 0, 100, and then at 200ms. But if you managed to get any more than 100ms out of step, the shot would be delayed. These are all the same issues you see with the current setup too ;-) jsut you'd have 100ms of leniance.

    Then again, there's probally a dozen ways to do a que. Look at the shocker turbos, the WAS boards, the ANGEL boards. they all do them differently.

    Then again, the point in question in this thread has been answered. :-) I'd considder the subject dead. further discussion into shot queing is just asking to get into corperate secrets ;-)

  14. #44
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    Originally posted by AGD
    I go away for the weekend and the research goes wild....

    It could be that the timing is off in semi mode. We never actually tested it we just timed it in full auto mode and assumend it was the same for semi.

    In any case all this will be water under the bridge with 3.0. The new software is working and in testing. The latest version allows for trigger pulls INSIDE the solenoid pull window and should allow for max walking speed. I haven't shot it myself yet so I dont know how well it works yet. I will let you know this week.

    AGD
    Thanks Tom!

  15. #45
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    Originally posted by AGD
    I go away for the weekend and the research goes wild....

    It could be that the timing is off in semi mode. We never actually tested it we just timed it in full auto mode and assumend it was the same for semi.

    In any case all this will be water under the bridge with 3.0. The new software is working and in testing. The latest version allows for trigger pulls INSIDE the solenoid pull window and should allow for max walking speed. I haven't shot it myself yet so I dont know how well it works yet. I will let you know this week.

    AGD
    Will 3.0 ship in the current batch of XMAGS?

    (and when will that be? )

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  16. #46
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    jack, its the noid clicking...did the same as you with the mic stuck in the grip frame with it on safety and kinda upsidedown so you can hear it clicking better.

    i don't have 2.4 software, i have 1.2 something i forgot.....can't check right now.

    I'll have to record another wav i think i deleted the other ones. But the one where i pulled fast i was fanning, and the one where i pulled slow i was just pulling the trigger.


    I think it'd be a good idea if we used the same software...what are you using?

    i'm late for class!

    EDIT: on another note.. I WANT 3.0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  17. #47
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    3.0 software is the schizzle!! It will sort alllllll this stuff out methinks.

    Its like the warp feed, you never realise how much you would miss it, if you suddenly couldn't use it.



    Its great get it.
    Bolter
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  18. #48
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    Originally posted by Bolter


    Its great get it.
    Fine, GIVE IT !!


    Jay.

  19. #49
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    Originally posted by Skoad


    i don't have 2.4 software, i have 1.2 something i forgot.....can't check right now...

    Ah ha! That might explain it!


    Originally posted by Skoad


    ...I think it'd be a good idea if we used the same software...

    Absolutely! Identical test conditions are ALWAYS required in order to substaniate any independent test results and conclusions.

    Now all we need is for someone else with 2.4 to do the ROF test...

    Interesting possible conclusion...

    With regard to being allowed to hit a desired ROF setting:

    1.2 is ok
    2.4 is not
    3.0 is ok

    With this in mind, is there really any speed difference between 1.2 and 2.4? Since 2.4 doesn't allow you to hit 20 by physically pulling the trigger (approx. limit apprear to be 16-17 bps), could you guys notice a difference from 1.2? Or was it all placebo from seeing the nice big magical red "ROF 20" on the gun?

    I'm just curious because I don't have any experience with the 1.2 EMAG.

    In any case, I'm excited about 3.0 as well!!!! Wooo hooo!

    Skoad, thanks for helping out and clearing things up!

  20. #50
    Originally posted by Jack & Coke
    Actually if you think in terms of relating MAX ROF to SMALLEST ALLOWED INTERVAL TIME, then you will see the problem more clearly.

    At ROF set to 8, you can see from the data that the smallest interval I was able to achieve was around 135 ms.

    I'm trying to get as close to 125 ms, right?

    Well according to the test where the ROF was set at 10, I was consistanly hitting 125 ms.

    So you see, the problem of me not reaching 8 bps is not governed by how well I time the trigger while raking or walking.

    The limitation (flaw) is with the electronics (software) not allowing me to approach the set Max rate.
    exactly, so if you look at your 10BPS max results, you will see that at 125mS you produced 8 BPS almost all the time. so, when it is set at 8BPS, as others said, if you produce even one cycle at less than 125mS (faster than 8 bps) then it wont resister that pull at all, and it will wait until the next pull. aprox, 125 mS later. all you ahve to do is pull the trigger more than 125 mS twice a second and now you are at 6BPS.

    the only REAL way to solve this is to set up a motor with a cam on it to pull the trigger for you at a specific interval. (ei: 125mS) if you do this, I bet you will see that 8BPS is posible if the max ROF is set to 8 BPS. your finger just cant do it perfect enough.

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  21. #51
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    well despite the conflicting software versions heres my wav's on emag with software 1.37

    heres me fanning fast: http://web.umr.edu/~sjjgfd/pullingfast.wav

    you can hear my finger hitting the trigger in the background a bit. also you can hear the first 2 pulls are a little faster than the rest, took me a second to get the finger moving


    now here's me pulling at a slow pace:
    http://web.umr.edu/~sjjgfd/pullingslow.wav


    both set on 8 bps cap...jack work your wave table mojo!


    im gonna go drop my emag off so Cool Hand can get started on making blade triggers for emags.....so lookout for those too!!

  22. #52
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    Jack, great work, keep up the effort This was a known issue and the whole reason why the 3.0 software is in developement, the simple fact that you could pick up a WAS board marker and rip and then pick up an E/X-mag and not rip as fast is the very same problem that others have encountered here, it's a clear indication that something was amiss.

    As has been stated in this thread and a couple others, if you pull the trigger inside the noid window, it gets ignored, which is why you're hitting 6.6 bps instead of 8, you've got one or two shots in there that are not being counted.

    If the emag board you have has burst mode on it (my 1.37 does), you can check that the ROF limits are physically working. Burst had a BPS cap of 9 pbs at its highest setting and I know you can set it as low as 6 for certain, not sure off hand how low it will go beyond that (don't have it here at work with me so I can't tell for sure), but set it for 6 shot mode and it will allow you to play around with the ROF caps to get a better feel for the timing you're looking for. Set it for 8 bps, record it, and play it back as you try to duplicate it on the trigger, use the recording as your metronome Enough practice and you'll get the right timing and hit your magic 125ms space you're looking for. This is what I did for training myself to shoot 16bps on my emag; I took an 8 bps burst sample and cut the time intervals in half and played it over and over again (drove my wife and kids nuts) until I got the timing with my fingers just right.

    -Evil Bob

  23. #53
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    Originally posted by Evil Bob


    Jack, great work, keep up the effort This was a known issue and the whole reason why the 3.0 software is in developement, the simple fact that you could pick up a WAS board marker and rip and then pick up an E/X-mag and not rip as fast is the very same problem that others have encountered here, it's a clear indication that something was amiss.

    Interesting... so EMAGS are not the best guns???


    Originally posted by Evil Bob


    As has been stated in this thread and a couple others, if you pull the trigger inside the noid window, it gets ignored, which is why you're hitting 6.6 bps instead of 8, you've got one or two shots in there that are not being counted.

    I've heard this a few times also... what exactly is the time interval of the noid window? How many milliseconds is it?


    Originally posted by Evil Bob


    If the emag board you have has burst mode on it (my 1.37 does), you can check that the ROF limits are physically working. Burst had a BPS cap of 9 pbs at its highest setting and I know you can set it as low as 6 for certain, not sure off hand how low it will go beyond that (don't have it here at work with me so I can't tell for sure), but set it for 6 shot mode and it will allow you to play around with the ROF caps to get a better feel for the timing you're looking for. Set it for 8 bps, record it, and play it back as you try to duplicate it on the trigger, use the recording as your metronome Enough practice and you'll get the right timing and hit your magic 125ms space you're looking for. This is what I did for training myself to shoot 16bps on my emag; I took an 8 bps burst sample and cut the time intervals in half and played it over and over again (drove my wife and kids nuts) until I got the timing with my fingers just right.

    Wow! sound like a lot of work just to get the gun to shoot like it's advertised...

  24. #54
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    J&C, are you saying that the emag and tunamax have different boards?
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  25. #55
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    Originally posted by Jack & Coke
    Interesting... so EMAGS are not the best guns???
    Naw, I stand by my belief, the E/Xmag is still the next best thing to sliced bread, it just currently has a minor flaw that will be fixed shortly.


    I've heard this a few times also... what exactly is the time interval of the noid window? How many milliseconds is it?
    Not sure, that's a Tom question, I'd hazzard a guess at 20 ms, small enough not to hit too often, but big enough to hit occasionaly and skip a shot/break your rhythm.

    Wow! sound like a lot of work just to get the gun to shoot like it's advertised...
    You're right, it was alot of work, but in doing so I know what different bps rates sound like in game and on my fingers. If I'm facing off 1 on 1 with someone who's hitting 14 bps, I know that he can sustain steady fire (assuming 180 shot hopper) for 13 seconds solid, after that he's going to out or reloading, at which time I'm going to move on him. If he doesn't come out from behind his bunker for 10 seconds, I assume he's topping off, at which time I start my count again. I also watch guys when they come on the field, the whole "know thy enemy" gig, I take a look at what they're carrying hopper and paintwise and try to use it to my advantage when it comes to moving and mugging. Stay in their face, keep them shooting at you, they'll run low eventually and give you the opportunity to move with impunity, shoot at them often enough to keep them in their place, or not so often to goad them into moving up on your. When you feel they're low on paint or reloading, move to a new bunker and force them to shoot what they have left at you. If the other guy thinks you can only shoot 3-4 bps, he's going to risk hitting the next bunker, when he goes for it, that's when you lay down the law and put him in his place with 16 bps lovin...

    -Evil Bob

  26. #56
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    I personally tried out the latest 3.0 version tonight that allows trigger pulls inside the solenoid pull window. It seems like its working pretty good!

    Unfortunately I can't walk for crap but with a 10bps cap it will machine gun in perfect rhythm. At 20 bps I can't keep it going steady but in sperts it goes really fast.

    I think its about ready for release. I need to have some good guys try it.

    AGD

  27. #57
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    Should I overnight my grip frames tomorrow? I have both an emag and an xmag.

    -Evil Bob

  28. #58
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    Originally posted by GatoLoco
    J&C, are you saying that the emag and tunamax have different boards?
    That all depends on how old your EMAG is and whether or not you've had your board flashed.

    EMAG is the ELECTRO MAG AGD makes.
    EMAX is an EMAG with an X-Valve.
    TUNAMAX is an ALL ULE EMAX built and performance tunned by Tunaman.


  29. #59
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    Don't forget the laser engraved Tuna logo on the valve

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  30. #60
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    Originally posted by AGD
    I personally tried out the latest 3.0 version tonight that allows trigger pulls inside the solenoid pull window. It seems like its working pretty good!

    Unfortunately I can't walk for crap but with a 10bps cap it will machine gun in perfect rhythm. At 20 bps I can't keep it going steady but in sperts it goes really fast.

    I think its about ready for release. I need to have some good guys try it.

    AGD
    1. Turn the selector switch to the 3 o'clock position.
    2. Use two orings and one magnet.
    3. Adjust the HES accordingly.
    4. Rake the stock trigger as fast as you can BUT with a very soft touch. (no need for the AGD roller trigger wheel)

    You should be able to hit 18-20 cps... at least that's the only way I can do it.

    Tom, can you please duplicate my test for 3.0? (see first post for recording the noid click at various ROF)

    See if 3.0 delivers the TRUE ROF you set it to.

    Thanks

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