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Thread: MAX ROF setting on EMAG 2.4 board = INCORRECT!

  1. #61
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    Thumbs up

    Originally posted by Skoad


    jack work your wave table mojo!



    Interesting... although better performance than my results, it looks like you couldn't hit 125 ms either. See if you can get a hold of a 2.4 so you can compare it to my results.

    Thanks a lot Skoad for helping out!
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  2. #62
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    Originally posted by Evil Bob
    Don't forget the laser engraved Tuna logo on the valve

    -Evil Bob
    Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    That's me secret power source!
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  3. #63
    if he was doing that by hand, then that is very impressive. he pulled 130mS alomst all the time. 7.7 BPS is close enough to 8 to call it 8. if you pulled exactly 125mS, then it would be 8. there is also an issue of setup and hold times in the hardware.

    if the software wont fire until the 125ms gate time has passed, but the hardware will not "see" a trigger pull for 1mS after you pull it, it will never really get to the max ROF.

    as others have said. set it to 16, and you wont have a problem.

    "super multi-green mag" Cp barrels, LX bolt, no-rise, intelli, 47ci flatline, halo................
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  4. #64
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    Originally posted by xen_100


    as others have said. set it to 16, and you wont have a problem.

    Nope. The same problem occurs at ROF 16 as well.

    Instead of trying to think of this in terms of theory, try to record a time intveral of close to 62 ms with ROF set to 16 on a 2.4 board. I sure as hell can't.

    With a ROF set to 16, I should be allowed to hit close to 62 ms... right?

    However, the best time interval between trigger pulls I was allowed to register was 71 ms. Since the results of ROF 18 and ROF 20 clearly show that I can pull (rake) faster than 70 ms, my conclusion is the same... the actual ROF CAP on the EMAG 2.4 is lower than what you set it at.

    I have repeated this test a few times now... each time I get the SAME results. If you have a theory as to why the 2.4 has this problem, please run the same test I have run before posting your conclusions.

    Hitting the max ROF at 8, 10, 12, 14, etc., or at least being allowed to come close to it, SHOULD NOT BE THIS DIFFICULT on a $1,000+ "elite" marker.

  5. #65
    what I am saying is, if you set it to 16, and the highest you can pull the trigger is 14(hypathetically) then you will neever see a skipped shot.

    if you are getting close to pulling the trigger at the max ROF set (say 8 BPS), then yes, you will see skipped shots. you will have skipped shots because you are pulling the trigger faster than it can react. being able to time your trigger finger to within a mS or two is not posible. you have to be right on the money. remember computers count in uS, not mS. all you have to be in 5uS early, and it will not be counted. it may show up on your counter as 125mS, but if it was really 124996uS. that is early to the computer.

    if you really really want to see if the SW or hardware is the issue. setup a function generator on the trigger input.(bypass the HES) and set it for 125-127 mS and see if the gun will fire at 8 BPS with a max of 8BPS set. if it wont, then you are indeed correct. if it will, then it is simply a matter of humans not being as acurate as computers.

    but until a scientific test is performed, you can pull the trigger "as close" to 125mS as you like. if it is not exactly 125mS everytime. it is not a conclusive test.

    another issue that you have to consider is this: on ANY electronic circuit. if you want the output of a circuit to follow the input, there HAS to be headroom for this to happen. talk to any engineer and he will tell you this. if you time thing on the hairy edge, it is going to be glitchy and you will miss signals. you have to have a buffer area. this is esspecially true if you are timing things in mS. if you dont have a few mS "grey area" for the circuit to have. it will miss signals sometimes if they arrive a little early.

    I hope that makes sense to you. I have been an electronics engineer for about 5 years, so I can tell you , there are other forces at work here that limit you being able to hit EXACTLY 8 BPS, when you set it to 8BPS. (unless the computer is pulling it for you. IE: full auto)

    so, this is where the "shot buffering" comes in. they are making the grey area for you. so if you set it for 8 BPS and you pull 130mS, then 126mS, then 124mS, then 131mS, then 123mS. you are not going to have the 124mS, and 123mS shots skipped. you will be able to get damn close to 8 BPS all the time. it will be the NPPL rule makers to decide if this is a legal way to set a trigger. it seems to me that 1 shot, 1 pull is violated here, but that is another thread
    Last edited by xen_100; 09-23-2003 at 01:46 PM.

  6. #66
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    i know on my emag if i set it on 16 i CANNOT get more than 13 pulls a second...

    i've tried ;(

  7. #67
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    Originally posted by Jack & Coke


    That all depends on how old your EMAG is and whether or not you've had your board flashed.

    EMAG is the ELECTRO MAG AGD makes.
    EMAX is an EMAG with an X-Valve.
    TUNAMAX is an ALL ULE EMAX built and performance tunned by Tunaman.

    so yes or no about the boards?
    WARNING!: This cat is not an Al Roker imposter


  8. #68
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    Originally posted by Skoad
    i know on my emag if i set it on 16 i CANNOT get more than 13 pulls a second...

    i've tried ;(
    This diagram kinda shows what is happening. Strangely, if you slow your trigger pull to 6-7bps instead of 10, you will shoot faster. Same idea for higher bps.
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    Last edited by Miscue; 09-23-2003 at 09:10 PM.

  9. #69
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    All these theories about "fitting" in x amount of shots into a 1 second time frame are interesting.

    However, think of the problem like this:

    If I only pull the trigger 2 times, what's the smallest time interval between those two pulls that I should be able to record if ROF is set to 8?

    Please, I ask again, someone else try to do this test using the 2.4 software.

  10. #70
    Originally posted by Jack & Coke
    All these theories about "fitting" in x amount of shots into a 1 second time frame are interesting.

    However, think of the problem like this:

    If I only pull the trigger 2 times, what's the smallest time interval between those two pulls that I should be able to record if ROF is set to 8?

    Please, I ask again, someone else try to do this test using the 2.4 software.
    you would be able to pull it twice in 125mS. the first pull happens at 0 seconds. the second pull would have to happen at sometime after 125mS for you to get a second shot out the gun.

    as I said. set up a function generator and an O-scope and see what the board is capable of. just pulling the trigger and recording it on a microphone is not at all acurate enough for what you are trying to prove.

  11. #71
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    Originally posted by xen_100


    just pulling the trigger and recording it on a microphone is not at all acurate enough for what you are trying to prove.

    Then why is it that I'm able to achieve recordings of:

    128 ms, 127 ms, 126 ms, 125 ms

    while ROF is set to 10, but I can not while the ROF is set to 8?

    Keep in mind that I did this while pulling the trigger at various speeds like previously suggested.

    xen_100, have you tried to duplicate this test yourself?

    If not, try this... set your 2.4 board to ROF = 8. Now shoot your gun ANY way you want - fast, slow, any speed...

    What is fastest you're able to actually shoot your gun? Shouldn't you at least be able to hit 8? If you can not hit 8, then is 8 really the maximum?

  12. #72
    I dont have an emag. but I have the exact same result you see from a boo-yaah grip. if you set the MAX ROF to 8, you can not hit 8. set it to 10 and 8 easy to hit (back to my point about having enough overhead in the circuit). it is a MAX setting, meaning you will not likely be able to ever hit that number in the real world. think of it this way, if you have a pent4 computer running at 2.4 Ghz. internally that CPU is capable of "X" number of computations in one second. for the sake of argument, lets say that number is 100 (it is ALOT more) if you put a benchmarking SW on your computer and tried to see if it would do 100 cycles in a second, you will be disapointed. it will reach about 80% and start to fall off. you will never reach the theoretical maximum.

    again, theoricically you should be able to do just what you have said.(set it for 8 and be able to shoot 8) but there are things like hardware propagation delays. software overhead. energizing time on the noid.( the rise time of the noid coil could take 1 or 2 mS all by itself) the time it take for the bolt to move forward and fire(so your mic can pick it up) these all add up to 1, 2, 3mS? I dont know, I would have to put it on a scope and measure it. if you are recording 125-127mS pulses on your mic from the gun firing. I would say you are pulling the trigger at 122-125 mS. this is just speculation, but if that is the case, then at 10 BPS max ROF, it would be fine. but at 8 it would be too fast.

    and when I say it is not acurate enough, I mean you are measuring the output from the board. (the gun firing) you are not comparing the input time VS the output time. let say you have a 2-3mS delay from the time you pull the trigger to the time the gun fires. your mic will will not be able to show you this. so if you pulled the trigger at 124mS it will be an ignored trigger event. if you pulled the trigger at 126mS then you will see your gun fire at 128-130mS. see what I mean? if you dont have an acurate way to measure the input VS the output, you are just speculating that you are pulling the trigger correctly and not geting 8 BPS when set to 8 BPS. until you have a way to measure this, you dont really know if it is the hardware/software causing it, or if it simply human error.

    this is why I said, you need to do a scientific test. not just use a mic to record your output. that is a grat way to get a general idea. but when you are trying to prove timing issues in the uS, its not gonna cut it.
    Last edited by xen_100; 09-24-2003 at 12:27 PM.

  13. #73
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    is the emags bursts the right rof??

  14. #74
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    Yes, Emag burst and full auto are at the correct ROF, the problem above occurs due to a small window in which the trigger does not accept input.

    -Evil Bob

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