Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 35

Thread: Breech Turbulance and how it relates to "ACCURACY" AGD et al opinions please...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Redondo Beach, California
    Posts
    2,644

    Breech Turbulance and how it relates to "ACCURACY" AGD et al opinions please...

    This one is for Tom and his Army.

    From: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...hreadid=342328

    Jack Rice, co-creator of the Alien paintball gun, claims that the DM4 does not shoot as ultra flat and as ultra accurate as the original Matrix. He believes that since the air path has to make many 90 degree bends, and jump through holes, that it creates too much chamber turbulance - affecting the DM4's accuracy.

    Originally posted by Jack Rice


    ...new bolt doesn't give the same ultra flat ultra accurate shot original Matix gave. If you feel ball to barrel match is everthing then OK. But here's another example of chamber turbulance affecting accuracy.

    The original Trix had the stored air right behind the bolt/spindle. A little in/out movement around the top hat then straight down the bolt through the venturi, a real nice path.

    But they wanted the bolt smaller. Now the air has to make a right turn through those holes on the edges and another right turn to go down the bolt.

    Now it's just pressure behind the ball, no direction, and direction is the one thing Trix had, don't kid yourself, Mag has it too, the Air is behind the ball. It's not that "Quality alway shoots straight" it's that straighter air shoots straight...

    We've had a pretty much "civil" discussion, considering the flaming nature PBN has. One of the posters there brought up an nice idea...

    [b]

    Originally posted by Dave
    I'm confused this is PBnation and this debate is civil and thought provoking, all we need now is Tom Kaye and Bill Mills dropping knowledge and it's lights out.

    [b]
    GTRsi brought this to attention and now I'm curious as well...

    Tom and Bill, what's your take on "chamber turbulance" and "accuracy"?

    AO Army opinions are welcomed as well...


  2. #2
    Check out Tom's opinions on air flow and paths in deep blue...

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...highlight=flow

    Not sure it relates to "ultra flat shooting" which we all know is a joke - but at least it is some useful info...

    -Calvin
    From a poster at PB Nation:

    ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

    MY FEEDBACK

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Redondo Beach, California
    Posts
    2,644

    Thumbs up

    Thanks for the link cledford!

    That thread was a good one to read... but Tom talks about flow paths, bends, and turns, as they relate to "efficiency".

    I wonder what his take is how these things affect "accuracy"...

    thanks again

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    4,105
    Pssh!

    Its all in the elves!


    Honestly, I don't see how it could effect the path of the ball enough to make a difference.

    Team Sandbaggers.
    -We own j00 all.-

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    2,940
    I'd say the whole thread, like so many others, is pure wasted electrons and speculation unless you have data to back up the performance of the original matrix and the reworked one.

    Considering the rapid expulsion and expansion of gas I doubt any measurable effect results from turbulence induced by the flow path before the air exits the face of the bolt.

    No matter what the path before, all those little molecules have to spread out to fill and expand in the space behind the paintball.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    5,952
    Sorry but there is no connection between accuracy and bolt air flow. Accuracy is a function of airflow around the ball AFTER it leaves the barrel. There is a long thread in Deep Blue called Paintball Spin Physics if you want the facts.

    AGD

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Redondo Beach, California
    Posts
    2,644

    Thumbs up

    Thanks Tom!

    You da man!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    5,770
    Originally posted by Jack & Coke
    Thanks Tom!

    You da man!
    Jack I think you cracked this one before I had the chance too. Tom, as usual, is correct as well.

    I guess I can add my comments here as well.

    1. If there is a measurable difference I am willing to bet that when all forces are accounted, and the equation is seen in its entirety, for and we are looking at end results, i.e. what and where the ball is going, any difference is minute or undetectable.

    2. I really think that turbulence, opposite of laminar “straight" flow, has more to do with efficiency rather than accuracy/distance. This maybe the key, again if this is even a worthy venture for pbguns, on HOW much the flow is obstructed and if that has any affect on efficiency.

    jb

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Redondo Beach, California
    Posts
    2,644
    Originally posted by gtrsi


    2. I really think that turbulence, opposite of laminar “straight" flow, has more to do with efficiency rather than accuracy/distance. This maybe the key, again if this is even a worthy venture for pbguns, on HOW much the flow is obstructed and if that has any affect on efficiency.

    jb
    I think this was addressed here: http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...highlight=flow


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    7,104
    Let's get thems yonder pitch forks 'n torches ya'll! YEEEE HHAAAAAAWWWW!

  11. #11
    No wonder the Alien isn't going to sell, . Anyways, in my opinion we should really all consider the one most incrediblest most importantest thing..kick/recoil/blowback, correct whichever form you want but they all make the gun move. The original Matrix had ...almost 0 kickback, thus making its streams very accurate. Keely Watson's dad informed me at Miami that one of the players using the DM4 noted it had a bit more kick than the original, but thats just what he said. I think somebody should really compare the kick of the two, as the air flow really seems like dismal reasoning.
    2 da k da 2 Timmah.

    Oh..it shoots da 620:1 .No problemo.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    5,770
    Originally posted by gtrsi


    on HOW much the flow is obstructed and if that has any affect on efficiency.

    thanks Jack,
    I made a quick read of it. Gee now I am only 1 year behind Tom, lol.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Rocky Top, TN
    Posts
    4,855
    Originally posted by wobbles82
    No wonder the Alien isn't going to sell, . Anyways, in my opinion we should really all consider the one most incrediblest most importantest thing..kick/recoil/blowback, correct whichever form you want but they all make the gun move. The original Matrix had ...almost 0 kickback, thus making its streams very accurate. Keely Watson's dad informed me at Miami that one of the players using the DM4 noted it had a bit more kick than the original, but thats just what he said. I think somebody should really compare the kick of the two, as the air flow really seems like dismal reasoning.
    I'm not an engineer but couldn't the kick have been a direct result of running the marker at a higher pressure to gain a bit more efficiency?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    96
    Like Tom said there is an awesome link in Deep Blue about this. Its all about the "vortex" of air around the ball after if leaves. What I thought was cool and took out was that the "M" effect created by flatlines is not great enough to stop the vortex, yet, I think. Old news anyways =)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    7,104
    I find it annoying when people say you don't accept what they have to say because you are not being open-minded... especially when what information they have to present would not meet minimum requirements for the entry of a grade school science fair project.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    "The SC" (South Carolina)
    Posts
    16,205
    All those that think J&C thinks too much and needs to get out and get laid or plastered more raise their hands.


    I just kiddin ya Jack! Keep the thought valves hummin.


    AGD, where we are so good we can do it with only ONE tube!

    cphilip.com

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    5,770
    Originally posted by Miscue
    I find it annoying when people say you don't accept what they have to say because you are not being open-minded... especially when what information they have to present would not meet minimum requirements for the entry of a grade school science fair project.
    Just say your post on pbn. I don't think the guy that posted before you is going to get it.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    7,104
    Well... no matter how right I am... all it would do is annoy the morons. And... the rest of us already realize that they are wrong. So... moot.


  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    South Joisey
    Posts
    4,557
    I love AO!!!1





    Lets have one o' dem ol' fashioned hole diggies!

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Redondo Beach, California
    Posts
    2,644
    Originally posted by cphilip
    All those that think J&C thinks too much and needs to get out and get laid or plastered more raise their hands.


    I just kiddin ya Jack! Keep the thought valves hummin.
    Great idea! You should email my wife j/k

    Gawd I miss college!

    Now I'm reduced to hunting down paintball fallacies over the internet...

    Oh woe is me... woe is me...

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    "The SC" (South Carolina)
    Posts
    16,205
    hehe...send me her email!

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Newton, MA :) (Moved, but still a Boston boy!)
    Posts
    914

    JACK

    Jack, you definitely need some side action or more play with the wifey, you think too much... lol, jk, we need to keep the thinkers here.

    I think the accuracy thing is pointless it's just like the venturi/closed bolt deal, but there has got to be something involved in kick and efficiency being affected by air flow. If air is pushing against something (airlines, etc) including friction then an equal force is pushing back hence providing resistance. Even if the air gets to its destination eventually, any air being pushed back slows down the flow. This has got to affect efficiency and kick.

    So I don't know much about the new trix, but Jack Rice is either an idiot or a liar. Comes down to if he knows what he's saying is right or not. I like the Trix but this kind of marketing is lame.

    ...now I'm waiting to have people respond saying we think nothing is as good as a mag, we're AO zombies, yadda yadda, yadda, which we're not. I love the trix and I'm just comparing the old to the new, this has nothing to do with mags specifically. Though a more open-face mag bolt would be interesting, having the three parts that branch out from the power stem to the outside of the bolt be thinner, but go deeper for support. Would have less impeding the air flow. Interesting...
    Feedback: http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...hreadid=105565
    Feedback on EBAY under QUINCYMASSGUY
    Good traders: paintcatcher, a few others

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    5,952
    Well if you want to get more into air flow dynamics read on.....

    In fact flow has nothing to do with anything in the firing chamber (assuming the holes are reasonably large enough which most are). Follow me through here.

    Whatever gun you have releases the air from the holding chamber into the air passages that lead to the back of the ball. During this initial burst yes turns and such may affect flow to some extent but here is the problem. THE BALL IS STUCK LIKE A CORK IN THE BARREL.

    The ball has INERTIA which means it doesnt want to move when you push it. As the air flows in behind the ball, it just sits there and PRESSURE BUILDS UP. Now make this leap, as the pressure builds up..... flow slows down. There is enough delay caused by the "cork" that any flow problems catch up with themselves befor e the ball launches down the barrel. As the ball is moving down the barrel it is being propelled by the pressure already in the firing chamber NOT by air flowing out of the storage chamber. Hammer valves close before the ball leaves the barrel.

    FYI

    AGD

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Newton, MA :) (Moved, but still a Boston boy!)
    Posts
    914

    AGD

    Well there is little if any chance that I plan on opposing AGD on physics principles, if he says it's a certain way, it is that way most likely.

    I guess my question would then be, what affects efficiency and kick in similar markers like trixes and vikings which may operate at different pressures but all fire at 300fps, so the force being applied to the ball must be the same? And this excludes paint-to-barrel match. Something must make them different outside the weight of the guns too (heavier=kicks less excluded then as well). I saw an interesting post on PBN regarding spool valves compared to poppet valves, that spools result in less kick. What in the principles we are addressing results in the trixes kicking less or whatever Jack Rice said and markers like a viking or mag kicking more?

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Redondo Beach, California
    Posts
    2,644
    Originally posted by Jack Rice on http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...03#post3305203


    ...All you have to do is take an extra bolt and block part of it off, not the top or the bottom -one side- and you'll see real results. You really do it, and then you see real results. Nothing better than that! It's not that every ball is less accutrate, just more wingers, less tight of a pattern. Then you try to figure out why. More air slips down the side sometimes, or maybe sometime it hits the seam. I can't tell you why, I can tell you it happens and it will happen for you...

    Has anyone tried this already? If not, I have a spare timmy bolt (check it) that I'll experiment with...

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    5,952
    If you blast air at one corner of the ball yes it can get things screwed up. Production bolts all have a symetrical hole pattern so its not an issue.

    Marker kick is due to the weight and speed of the bolt. Its also increased by shooting paint becaus the gun "pushes" off the ball. Try it.

    AGD

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Newton, MA :) (Moved, but still a Boston boy!)
    Posts
    914

    so...

    I'd love to try it but my totally custom merlin is in pieces here in Eastern Mass and in Western Mass (Destructive Customs doing their thing). I do agree with the well-tested ideas of Tom Kaye but I am curious what your bolt test does J+C. Not saying it will be beneficial, but it will either proves or disprove Rice's idea. I frankly trust the experience of seasoned techs like AGD, Bill Mills, Doc Nickel, Bud Orr, Bob Long, and such over rookie product developers like Rice who release products that, by their statements, apparently defy laws of physics and pneumatics tested by scientists for ages.

    But on the topic of old product myths, who was the first person to say closed bolt was more accurate, hence the autococker was more accurate? Was it Bud Orr?

  28. #28
    Off topic, but with regard to the closed-bolt shoots further/flatter myth:

    Just taking a guess here - but I've always wondered if the "closed-bolt" myth started back in the early days as a bleed over from the firearms world where closed-bolt and bolt action guns are considered (and typically are) more accurate then semi-auto and open bolt guns. I figure that just like with paintball rifling (Hey if it works on real guns so it'll work on paintguns also, right?!) early product manufacturers in a rush to market assumed that since there is more then a passing similarity (at least in appearance) between real guns and paintball - that they just "decided" if something was true in one area that it was in the other as well.

    My theory then assumes that as technology began to creep into paintball and owners began to realize that there was a world of difference between the two (guns and markers), the manufacturers, still needing a "marketing edge" to set themselves apart from the rest of the pack, just began to find other explanations for one product over another. My guess is that it didn't take long to move past accuracy (since in general all paintball markers shot side by side will exhibit roughly the same accuracy with no particular marker standing out exceptionally) so the vendors and fans (who are quite obsessive about defending their choice in equipment) then moved onto more subjective areas like trajectory. I.E. Ten people can all stand around and see (count) that a mag hits a pie plate x number of times and then and angel hits it Y and the cocker Z. The numbers won't be to far apart, but no one can convince someone of what they "see" trajectory to be when viewing it through their own eyes from their singular perspective. Add in that all markers have different profiles, that you can see the projectiles in flight and you have a situation where things are being even further mis-viewed. For example, first cockers and then later in the game Shockers are b much taller and flatter on the side than a powerfeed automag. My Shocker "looks" like it shoots straighter then my mag - because I'm viewing things differently. With the Shocker the plane of the barrel is actually about 3/4" to an inch higher then the eye I'm sighting down the left side of the marker with. On the mag I look right along the side of the barrel - and therefore see the path of the ball differently. I believe that differences in perspective along with brand bias led to the rest of it.

    Anyhow, this is all conjecture, but what I believe.

    -Calvin

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    "The SC" (South Carolina)
    Posts
    16,205
    Very well could be Calvin...

    I often wondered how much of it was just gun kick and all the little human factors that go into responding to getting back on target. Wasn't too long ago that people raved about Brass barrels. When in a sense they realy were "Bull Barrels" much to counter kick up and keep one on target. Often used in firearms shooting for that very reason. But yet people attibute the percieved accuracy increase as something magical in the metal. And in this day and age with less weight being so in style they now feel the kicks more and adjust more to them. Almost automaticaly at some point after practice. Often why myths are blown out the window when markers are clamped in a vice. None of this stuff proves out when you take the human factor out of it.

    I often think certain people just find the rythm of a certain marker more natural for them to come back on target with and so they assume its the marker itself is more accurate. When in fact its mostly them and their natural instincts. And its something that could be learned with any marker with practice. But yet they come to the conclusion its the marker. And so a myth is born...

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Newton, MA :) (Moved, but still a Boston boy!)
    Posts
    914

    topic

    Back on topic of the trix, I was just wondering how heavy the DM4 is? Someone's remark about milling makes sense. If the DM4 is lighter than the stock, big-and-heavy matrix, that would definitely explain a little more kick to it and it wouldn't be the theory of how the air moves.

    J+C, if you're bored, strap some weights on your DM4 so it equals a regular Trix and compare them, just make sure the center of gravity is the same or the balance will be off. If you can get that to fire the same, you can really prove your point.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •