Smart Parts Patent Will Destroy Paintball! - Read!

**Surreal** · 07-22-2003, 10:32 PM

spesh pretty much summed it up. why do people even care? they aren't suing every company for every gun, so just shut up. the only people that should be pissed are ICD owners. bushmasters and impulses are almost identical in design for people who don't know. people are just taking this out of proportion and need to shut their pie hole.

**Kellen_p8nt** · 07-22-2003, 10:34 PM

in the land of the law theres ways around everything it seems.

ILL ADMIT I could be totally wrong in everythig I posted above.

I agree SP does not want to run people out of buisness. theres a few things they could be doing

1. HONESTLY trying to get back money from what they see as an infringment by ICD or WDP LIKELYHOOD...ok i guess BUt if other companies are worried...

2. Trying to get a larger piece of the ever growing pie in the electro market LIKLIEHOOD...possible

3. Raising the prices of other markers through royalty prices and lincensing, making there guns cheaper and influencing other companies to produce products for their guns LIKLIEHOOD...possible but unlikely

4. They want to control the electro market and are determined to do so LIKLIEHOOD..SLIM

Oh and yea those patents can be renewed sorta..see my post above

**spydervenom** · 07-22-2003, 10:43 PM

so they are just going after ICD...this week. they will eventually go after everyone who has the on/off switch or battery...anything that is infringing on their "patent"
if you read between the lines on the email, thats what it sounds like to me.

**minimag187** · 07-22-2003, 11:29 PM

I havent really read this whole thread (too long) but they are basically filing a suit against a company they stole a design from (the impulse from the bushy). So they are double *POOF* them over?

*Warning: No Cussing* -Miscue

**paintball8869** · 07-22-2003, 11:44 PM

Any paintball gun manufacturers out there want to start a fund for combatting the SP lawsuits? I mean, I'd definitely chip in a few bucks, as a ton of others would, to help keep electros coming from EVERYONE.

I'd personally hate to see a world of only Smart Parts guns. That'd be a waste. Thank God I have my ripper intimidator and my ironmen on the way

I don't care what they say, they'll have to pry them from my cold dead hands to get them away from me. As I understand it, we'd still be able to use them, etc......so it's not a problem for me, unless I wanted to buy a new electro in the future (which would probably be the xmag when they're out in full production, ie readily available). I don't need SP screwing up my future electro purchases.

SOMEONE PLEASE SETUP AN ANTI-SP FUND THROUGH PAYPAL. PLEEEEEAAAAAAAASE.

**emsemt911** · 07-23-2003, 12:03 AM

I will never boycott smart Parts. I love my toxic imp and freak system. I WILL continue to support them along with AGD.

**sean6942** · 07-23-2003, 12:12 AM

the owners of smartparts are dirty patent lawyers. They tried to run an illegal patent scam in the 80s. Before it got out of hand it was shut down by the FTC. here is a link to the restraining order against the pattant scam, http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/07/davisb~1.htm.

~Got that from www.Mrpl.org

**Paintballer3737** · 07-23-2003, 12:54 AM

well instaid of having electro guns that run on battery why not have electro guns that run on solar powerlike pluging it in to a cord that charges the gun through a solar panel outside or something or a little ac autlet u plug into the wall and charge ur gun.

nevermind im stupid.

**ForgedSpeed** · 07-23-2003, 12:59 AM

Yes, you are.

**karphead** · 07-23-2003, 01:03 AM

SP may only be going after ICD now, but how long will it be until they go after AKA, then WDP, then AGD, etc.? They aren't going to sue every company at once, that would be stupid. All those companies would join forces, as some people mentioned previously, and SP wouldn't stand a chance. The way it is now, they will just pick off the companies one by one. Reminds me of Hitler taking over Europe (but that doesn't necessarily mean I think SP are Nazi's, so don't make too many assumptions). He started small, took the German speaking countries that he claimed should be part of Germany...kinda like SP only going after ICD for having guns really similar to the Impulse and whatnot. After that, Hitler started working his way up, taking over larger and larger portions of land until before everybody knew it, he took over Poland and France. SP may only be going after ICD now, but I really think the big companies that could be affected by this need to work together right from the get go in order to nip this thing in the bud before it gets too big to handle.

**justinenjoi** · 07-23-2003, 01:15 AM

If your Gay and you no it like SMARTPART,
if your Gay and you no it and you really like to show it express your pride for SMARTPART(they are so dumb)

**icegod** · 07-23-2003, 01:29 AM

Also, one other thing To add. Remember this is a LEGAL dispute, as with any legal disputes, contacting the said companies for responses and statements is basically useless. They can't talk about the legal procedings other than extremely broad statements if any, due to the fact anything they say can be used against them. Also as with any legal proceedings, discussion of official case matters and specifics can have the case thrown out. This is why everyone that emails or calls will get basically the SAME exact response word for word because its what has been said to respond with. Since SP is run by former patent lawyer, he knows the ropes on legal proceedings, and knows they can not discuss anything that can incriminate them. So keep this in mind when contacting the specific companies that are already involved. Mainly speaking of SP and ICD since ICD has been chosen lucky #1. Also as for going after other companies, it all will depend on the ICD decision. IF they lost, its useless to go after another company with the same style suit and waste more $$, where as if they win, they will go to the next small name until they either lose or make it to the bigger names. But again nothing will be released from the said companies in fear of incrimination. The emails from spesh that someone posted, is a copy and paste email that MOST people recieved when emailing because its what they were told to release and nothing more. So keep all this in mind when emailing or calling.

**cockermongol** · 07-23-2003, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by karphead
SP may only be going after ICD now, but how long will it be until they go after AKA, then WDP, then AGD, etc.? They aren't going to sue every company at once, that would be stupid. All those companies would join forces, as some people mentioned previously, and SP wouldn't stand a chance. The way it is now, they will just pick off the companies one by one. Reminds me of Hitler taking over Europe (but that doesn't necessarily mean I think SP are Nazi's, so don't make too many assumptions). He started small, took the German speaking countries that he claimed should be part of Germany...kinda like SP only going after ICD for having guns really similar to the Impulse and whatnot. After that, Hitler started working his way up, taking over larger and larger portions of land until before everybody knew it, he took over Poland and France. SP may only be going after ICD now, but I really think the big companies that could be affected by this need to work together right from the get go in order to nip this thing in the bud before it gets too big to handle.

I agree 100%

**pbzmag** · 07-23-2003, 01:37 AM

justinenjoi - change your sig image. Cuss words are not permitted in this forum.

**Fishsticks** · 07-23-2003, 02:02 AM

With the current upheaval within the online paintball community, the Digital Paintball team has taken drastic steps to show its disapproval against Smart Parts’s latest lawsuits; DPB as an organization is OUTRAGED by the actions taken by SP. Siding with the likes of Jim Drew, Tom Kaye, Doc Nickel, and thousands of other players, we have decided to remove any and all pieces of Smart Parts equipment from DPB 2.2 (this means all plans for SP Barrels, models, skins, etc. have been scrapped). There will NOT be an Impulse, Shocker, or Smart Parts model in DPB 2.2, as of right now we are debating if we should bar SP from all future versions of DPB.

Here is a logo designed by Kuja expressing our thoughts about SP’s actions: http://www.digitalpaintball.net/?sp feel free to pass this link around, it’s the least we can do.

In a crisis such as this, we as a community must unite to show express our concern for the future of our sport. The removal of SP Gear from DPB 2.2 is our token of affection to the Gardner brothers.

Thank you for reading,

Gordon Yu
DPB Development Team Member
http://www.digitalpaintball.net

**Off Center** · 07-23-2003, 02:34 AM

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it looks like smart parts (they don't deserve capital letters) has patented markers with a battery AND a switch. So, how about if companies start selling their electro markers without switches; just put the battery in and take it out to turn the marker on and off. Or better yet, have a quick change battery pack (like on a power drill). Unless the switch refers to the trigger actuation. If this is the case, I am at a loss. Can anyone clarify the term switch in this sense?

**icegod** · 07-23-2003, 02:35 AM

as fishsticks stated with digital paintball, Maximum Velocity Paintball has also decided to suspend all smartparts related stuff from their paintball mod for ultimate tournament 2k3 mods. With the following statement.

Taken from http://www.mvpb.com
In light of the events that have taken place with Smartparts, MVPB has decided to do its part and suspend all Smartparts product from its mod pending total ban. This means we are halting any & all production currently taking place on Smartparts products, not beginning developement on any new Smartparts products, and are placing all completed Smartparts products in indefinate storage.

Actions such as those taken by Smartparts can not be tolerated by the public. This kind of business can only hurt the paintball industry that we love so much. Everyone MUST do anything they can to show Smartparts, and companies like them, that we care too much, and have worked to hard for the sport of paintball to have it set back dramatically by actions such as these.

**Wahooka** · 07-23-2003, 02:47 AM

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but other than the fact that SP owns several patents and the current law suit against ICD, isn't everything else just speculation and rumors?

I've spent the last 3 hours reading various threads on several different forums, and it seems to me that this anti-SP craze borders on mass-hysteria.

I have not seen any factual information regarding lawsuits other than the current SP vs. ICD suit. And, no one even knows the specifics of that!

Smart Parts Patent Will Destroy Paintball!

A strongly worded thread title followed by a post full of speculation. How will the Smart Parts Patent DESTROY paintball? That's a strong claim.

The facts as far as I can tell are that SP owns several patents, some of which are very broad and general. And, they are currently suing ICD for a yet to be released gun design. Will this destroy paintball?

I've read posts describing how Smarts Parts will charge royalties driving up marker prices and forcing some companies out of business. Isn't this just speculation? We're boycotting based on speculation? Is it okay if I wait to boycott until after they do something other than just own a patent? I must be missing something.

I'll freak out when I'm reading factual information; not hype, rumors and speculation. Sorry, but people are going a little overboard.

And please, enough of the Nazi/Swastika BS. Seriously. That ticks me off more than anything I've seen. Connecting that tragic period of history with something this trivial (yes trivial!) is offensive, irresponsible and just plain foolish.

**BlueFish28** · 07-23-2003, 02:58 AM

ok so i skipped the last 12 pages to post this.

A spring biases the bolt towards the rearward position. A pneumatic circuit is provided to drive the bolt towards the forward position and includes a control valve in the form of a solenoid valve to receive gas under pressure and direct it into a chamber at the rear of the bolt when the gun is shot. An electronic circuit controls the pneumatic circuit and is operated by an electrical switch operated by the trigger

ok so what doesnt fall under this is: IR3s, eBlade, other optical triggers.
basically, the patents that they have only cover the type of gun that the impy is. i dont believe that they can even add to this if an existing patent is owned by another company that covers the same thing.

also, when sp bought pvi, they also got the patents for the shocker.

**sps16** · 07-23-2003, 02:59 AM

How bout this: SP stands for Screwing Paintballers

**Doc Nickel** · 07-23-2003, 03:29 AM

Bluefish: The patent was recently expanded. This isn't reflected in the online version.

Wahooka: I agree, we could be mistaken. However, the liklihood of that is slim.

We've heard, for example, from Tom Kaye and Larry Alexander directly, and Bud Orr indirectly. Kaye has gone so far as to invest major time and effort into developing a mechanical trigger that's nearly as light as an electro trigger. (I'm sure he has other reasons as well, but he stated as such in this thread.)

Secondly, one does not sue another for patent infringement without also intending to demand compensation and/or punitive damages.

If the suit clears as SP hopes, they'll be able to have the courts award retroactive royalties- meaning ICD could very well have to pay royalties on every electronic marker they've made since the advent of the semiauto Bushmaster in, what, '98 or '99?

As I said in my SP Suit FAQ, if SP "only" charged $50 per unit royalty, ICD could very well have to come up with nearly two million dollars.

On top of court costs.

Yes, it's entirely possible that SP will merely charge a token fee, five or ten dollars per unit, and a fair licensing fee- maybe $25,000.

But I doubt it. The history of the company speaks otherwise- things like $100 aluminum barrels back in the days when any other barrel might cost you $50. Charging $150 more for a Shocker Sport (full auto) over the Shocker 4X4 when the only difference is a microswitch on the circuit board. (The circuit and software being identical- we regularly soldered $1.50 switches on to get the FA modes out of a 4X4 board.)

Charging $350 for a replacement Shocker vertical-feed body. Charging $200 for an Impulse solenoid when the damned $50 thing blew in the first place because it was designed to operate at 100 psi and the gun's forcing it to use twice that.

No, as I said, I hold little hope for the company's altruism and charity. I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong, if indeed I am, but I feel that is not very likely.

Doc.

**Digits** · 07-23-2003, 04:04 AM

^^

The mans full thoughts..

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/...eid=1058842375

Just to let you know.. I agree 100%

**Digits** · 07-23-2003, 04:19 AM

Oh, and Tom should patent the ULE trigger, and then allow other companies to use it.. EXCEPT FOR SMARTPARTS..

Seriouslly I hope whoever it was at smart parts that thought up this crap burns in hell, and I mean it.

**yurchikcs** · 07-23-2003, 04:29 AM

Too bad the ULE trigger only works with 'mag pattern valves, made exclusively by AGD.

**Digits** · 07-23-2003, 04:32 AM

But I want smart parts to burn...

I KNOW.. AGD put a patent on hpa tanks.. And sue the basterds at smartparts for there stupid maxflows.

AGD FOR LIFE.. $#^% SMART PARTS!

**BlueFish28** · 07-23-2003, 04:36 AM

thanks for the clear up doc, i skipped the second half, im getting tired and bored. heres my solution, i was planning on buying a BKO to vaporize, now i'll buy two. even if sp gets a chunk of the profit, they are losing my business because i was considering briefly an impy of soeme sort.

**manike** · 07-23-2003, 04:57 AM

Originally posted by bryceeden
I spent some time on the phone with smartparts, and yes this is definatly a bad deal it isn't as bad as this thread makes it sound. SP only plans on sueing WDP and ICD, so while it will greatly affect Angels and Bushmasters it won't realy change anything else too much. In the end AGD and WGP won't even be afected unless smartparts is lying to thier distributers.

Yeah right and you believe that?

They set a precedent against the smaller companies and the one they don't like (WDP) and then you think they will stop there rather than raking in the extra millions from the other companies? If you believe that... I have some swamp land I want to sell you

Originally The Smart Parts reply from "Spesh" at SP:

"Smart Parts as a company is not suing every company but we are going after Indian Creek Designs at the moment. It is a lawsuit that does pertain to the electronic gun design. I’m really not sure why people are trying to boycott or even have any interest in this matter. We did invent and do have patents on certain electronic gun designs, that other companies have used to further there own line of markers. We as a company tried to settle these issues out of court but none of the other companies would do that so we are suing for patent infringement on our ideas, just like any company or person who has invented something would. You can’t have companies stealing ideas from people and or companies to further there own business and not give back to the inventor. I assure you we are not going after these companies for selfish reasons; we are only trying to run an honest and family oriented business that makes the best paintball products out there. If everyone can steal your ideas and get away with it then where would this country be today? Thank you so much for your support" [/B]

Notice how they say "Indian Creek at the moment"...

The only gun they invented or rather had designed for them is the shocker. Everything else has been ripped off from other people's designs.

Funny how they have a problem being ripped off by others but not ripping off others...

Funny how they submarined their patents (a classic tactic) in order to adapt them to cover things invented and designed by other people that were outside of their original patented ideas.

You can’t have companies stealing ideas from people and or companies to further there own business and not give back to the inventor. I assure you we are not going after these companies for selfish reasons; we are only trying to run an honest and family oriented business that makes the best paintball products out there.

Stop me before my sides split please!

Jinxed patents do have life spans, so the USA one will be completely public domain no and everyone is allowed to use technology described in it.

Surreal, they are only sueing ICD and WDP at the MOMENT! Also the Bushmaster was designed and on sale long, LONG, before the Impulse.

**shartley** · 07-23-2003, 05:49 AM

About the manual AGD trigger…. Folks are assuming that was because of this SP issue (and AGD has ALMOST stated so), and not just happen to be in the same time period. Of course it would be stated it is because of it, it shows great forethought…. I am however, skeptical.

I agree that this is mass hysteria, and a feeding frenzy. There are quite a few well respected folks that disagree with that, and that is fine. But well respected folks have been wrong before. I will put my money on common sense. It does not make good business sense to ruin the industry that you make your money off… and it makes even less sense forcing companies out of business if what you are after is licensing fees and per item payments. And SP has not gotten where they are today from being idiots (note: This is not saying they have never made a bad decision though. I don’t know a single company or person who hasn’t.).

So for me personally, I will sit back and not make slanderous and libel statements……. Talk about law suits.

**manike** · 07-23-2003, 06:25 AM

Originally posted by shartley
About the manual AGD trigger…. Folks are assuming that was because of this SP issue (and AGD has ALMOST stated so), and not just happen to be in the same time period. Of course it would be stated it is because of it, it shows great forethought…. I am however, skeptical.

Nothing new there then

Many of us who follow paintball patents have known this was coming for years. But no-one took it all that seriously until a year or two ago.

The latest broadest patent was granted Nov 5th 2002 and so Tom has had plenty of time to develop the ULE trigger, even if it was only at that point that he became concerned.

Before that those of us that knew about it, hardly took it seriously. The latest 2 patents changed that.

I thought it was all too broad and with too much prior art to be valid. But they kept getting the patents broadened and are now going to court with them... so now we all take it very seriously.

**shartley** · 07-23-2003, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by manike
Nothing new there then

Many of us who follow paintball patents have known this was coming for years. But no-one took it all that seriously until a year or two ago.

The latest broadest patent was granted Nov 5th 2002 and so Tom has had plenty of time to develop the ULE trigger, even if it was only at that point that he became concerned.

Before that those of us that knew about it, hardly took it seriously. The latest 2 patents changed that.

I thought it was all too broad and with too much prior art to be valid. But they kept getting the patents broadened and are now going to court with them... so now we all take it very seriously.

I agree…. This is a case of problems caused by the patent office and granting patents that should not have been granted. It seems to me though that trying to capitalize on it would be a normal thing to do… otherwise why file for the patent in the first place?

To me, the problem lies in the patent granting process.

I would think that those in the industry (paintball) would want to get together and discuss this BEFORE it becomes a problem. When someone gets a patent that is detrimental to the industry, or can be shown that it is not valid, they should do something about it THEN, not later. File to have the patent thrown out. Show proof that it is not valid, or is too wide in scope.

Seems to me that the industry as a whole has ALLOWED this to happen. If everyone KNEW about it, but didn’t DO anything about it because they didn’t take it seriously, then where does the fault lie?

“I knew Johnny kept talking saying he would kill us if we kept picking on him, but no one really took him seriously.” Big surprise when Johnny shoots 5 of his classmates.

An ounce of prevention is worth MORE than a pound of cure. Patents, copyrights, trademarks, etc. are challenged all the time. Seems the Good Neighbor and the Nazi story is a good place for THIS situation…. NOT after things blow up. The time to act and take things seriously is when a patent is filed or discovered, and it is invalid for any number of reasons… not after someone attempts to ENFORCE the patent. And to BLAME them as if they are doing something wrong just baffles me. I can’t think of ANYONE who is granted a patent, copyright, trademark, etc. that would bother going through the process just to do NOTHING with it.

That is like handing out guns to everyone and then being shocked if someone actually uses one for what they perceive as self protection. “We gave everyone weapons, but we didn’t seriously think they would USE them.”

Go to the root of the problem… the patent office and the granting of patents that should not have been granted. Like I have stated before, taking away the patent takes away the case of rights infringement. And the time to do this is not after someone tries to enforce what is up to that point (at least on paper) their perceived rights…. Granted by the US Patent Office.

I will state however, that none of what I just said is agreeing or disagreeing with EITHER side. I am not saying SP has a valid claim, or does not have one. I am not saying SP should or should not try to enforce what they perceive to be their rights. What I am saying is that I understand all sides and none of them seem to have made the right decisions…. And now they may end up paying for it (all pun intended), and this includes both the “winners” and “losers”.

As for my skepticism…. You are right. Nothing new there.

But then again, even Tom admits that skepticism can be good.

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say no to boycot

simma down now

thanks doc

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