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Thread: Smart Parts Patent Will Destroy Paintball! - Read!

  1. #481
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    how do you get that anti smart parts banner in your profile? i tried practically everything..(i guess it isnt as simple as copy and paste)

    Sig disabled. Please don't have your sig scroll like that.
    Last edited by Load SM5; 07-23-2003 at 02:21 PM.

  2. #482
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    nevermind i got it
    Last edited by Load SM5; 07-23-2003 at 02:20 PM.

  3. #483
    Does someone have a link to a site that has all the info current and old organized?

  4. #484
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    Originally posted by manike


    Why wouldn't it?

    lower sales of their current products and lower the residual value of the products already sold (so people don't want to buy new?)

    You don't think that wouldn't effect SP any?
    Well if SP wins this case, would they even care if we boycotted them? They could then sit back, set their terms and live off of the patent royalties.

    Now if they lose, a boycott could drive them under right?

    This whole situation is FUBAR!! Why can't any of the parties involved just come out and state their case. I have a tough time buying the SP line. Electros have been out for so long that I can't comprehend why this is being allowed to proceed. Isn't this case 5 years too late?

  5. #485
    Spray Painter Guest
    I agree with alot of what people have said and i think what smart parts is doing is wrong, but has anyone emailed ICD about it to get their siad of the story?

  6. #486
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    They can't sue everyone at one time. People would just gang up on them but if they go after a couple of weak companies like ICD. Than they can take the profits from the lawsuit and go after more companies.

    The company I ordered my eframe from no longer makes them and is going bankrupt. Tom is sidesteping so Im definetly fraid for the electronemo people.

    If you have an electronic gun already they cant do squat but they can go after people if they get this bogus patent thing and tax them. SOme guy a while back won a patent suit on Wiper delays.

    For whatever reason the paten system is screwed up. Certain Patents like Mickey mouse have been good for 75 years and got extended another 50. So people can keep making money pedelign the same old busted junk.
    All your farm animals are belong to us.

  7. #487
    Originally posted by Spray Painter
    I agree with alot of what people have said and i think what smart parts is doing is wrong, but has anyone emailed ICD about it to get their siad of the story?

    no email but i called and as i stated earlier (which was the basis of my post) they stated they could not confirm or deny anything. There is legal action going on, however nothing can be said at this time what it is concerning due to incrimination.

  8. #488
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    Originally posted by Spray Painter
    I agree with alot of what people have said and i think what smart parts is doing is wrong, but has anyone emailed ICD about it to get their siad of the story?
    Well, the core of it is that SP thinks that ICD and WDP electros have violated the "updated" shocker patent, which magically includes the Impulse.

    It would be nice to know what SP thinks, but they are telling conflicting answers.
    Should be assume anything they tell us is factual?

    Well, we all know that Adam Gardner and George Davidson of Smart Parts were sued by the FTC for illegally manipulating the patent system to steal money from inventors a few years ago.

    Now, I'm a firm believer that people can learn from there mistakes, and become better people from it.
    So, this means that I don't automatically think that Smart Parts is lying to us.
    But it also means that I won't give them the benefit of a doubt.

    It "looks" like they are again manipulating the patent system to steal money from other inventors.
    It "looks" very bad.

    So this greatly effects paintball, they should be very clear and honest to us, the consumers.

    I think they probobly have a legitimate claim to the layout and style of the Shocker. Great, so anyone crazy enough to make a Shocker-clone can be sued.
    But SP needs to explain why they modified the Shocker patent to make such outragous claims.

    -Nick Brassard
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    Boycott Smart Parts

  9. #489
    thats true, but what you said just reminded me. How is piranna and other companies alive when it is such a blatant copy of Kingman's products. Did Kingman not Patent it?

    anyway heres a site that summarises everything, and has info.

    Site

  10. #490
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    Originally posted by jinxed


    Well, we all know that Adam Gardner and George Davidson of Smart Parts were sued by the FTC for illegally manipulating the patent system to steal money from inventors a few years ago.
    This issue in that case wasn't about them manipulating patent law. It was about them taking peoples money for services involving patenting and marketing new inventions that the didn't, and in some cases couldn't, provide. Stealing basicly

    Originally posted by jinxed
    It "looks" like they are again manipulating the patent system to steal money from other inventors.
    It "looks" very bad.

    -Nick Brassard
    -Master of the Pan Flute
    I agree and this is why what they are doing is "moraly" wrong (IMHO). It would appear that they have deliberatly broadened their patent so they could try and cash in on other companies markers. It is the fact that they broadened then sued as aposed to sueing under an existing patent that I, and it seems many others, don't like.
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  11. #491
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    here are my 2 cents

    Now, I don't even own an electro-marker and I don't intend to anytime soon. I would love an X-Mag, but I have a difficult time dropping $1300 on any paintball marker.

    However, I'm very upset that someone would even consider doing this. If SP doesn't win this suit, I think that they have just committed sucide. I know that I will never again knowingly purchase another SP product and I'm sure that many other people out there feel that same.

    If they do win. I think that the idea of an electro-marker might as well be dead.

    The other problem, as I see it, is AGD spent however much money on R&D for the X-Mag and are finally reaching a point where they can recoop some of the money that they invested in their design. Now, you have someone coming out saying, "If you want to continue producing this marker, you are going to have to give us 1 million bucks, plus $75 per marker." I don't know if AGD and other companies will be able to afford to this. As I stated before, I'm not about to drop $1300 on a new marker. Furthermore, I'm certainly not going to spent $1500+ on a new marker.

    This whole thing is a complete load of crap and I really hope, along with the rest of you, that SP doesn't win. Then, they will have to find a way out of this public relations nightmare that they have brought amongst themselves.

    Good Luck to all of the other electro manufactures.
    I'm a lefty that plays with an old school RT with H/L. I bought a warp and all is right with the world.
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  12. #492
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    Originally posted by phatpat47
    thats true, but what you said just reminded me. How is piranna and other companies alive when it is such a blatant copy of Kingman's products. Did Kingman not Patent it?
    Well.
    The Kingman Spyder is a NEAR EXACT COPY of the ICD Promaster.
    The ICD Promaster was loosely based on the Sheridan PMI3, which was not patented to "encourage the market to produce aftermarket parts". (only the PMI3 detent is patented).
    The PMI3 itself was loosely based on the "Enforcer Semi" designed by Chauncey of CooperT-.

    How does this relate to the SMart Parts case?
    Someone in 2002 just patented the generic stacked-tube blowback!!!! 12 years after the PMI-3.HERE IS THE LINK

    This fact alone proves that the patent system is a compelete waste. How could the patent office grant that patent?
    But they did, which partially explains how they awarded SmartParts its ridiculous patents..

    Nick

  13. #493
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    Dont worry i will boycott smart parts(1 reson being i dont need anything from them

    But its soo stupid what they are doing.
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  14. #494
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    whatcha could do

    what people could do is just manufacture upgrade kits (grip frames yadda yadda...Then they wouldn't be selling or manufacturing a electro pneumatic paintball marker.

    blah....just a thought.

    Buy a cocker then buy an eblade for it..or a mag then a hyper frame etc. etc.

  15. #495
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    Originally posted by jinxed


    So Bill Gardner is being "very open about the patent".

    But then DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHY HE IS SUING ICD AND WDP.
    SO THIS IS LIE #1

    Then it completely contradicts the statement from SPESH.
    SO ThIS IS LIE #2.

    So until SP comes forward and actually tells us what there intentions are, then I have to assume they are going to contunue to lie to us.

    So, in a way you helped confirm the worst for us!!

    Nick
    They are sueing ICD and WDP because they belive that the Angel/bushy triggers are too close to the shocker/impulse triggers. I don't think that they lied about anything, I also don't think they will go after everyone right away because that would do them more damage then good, and they know it. I feel that thier side of the story is important because several people posting here don't really even know what is going on and it shows that it isn't as bad as was speculated origonaly. All I can say is call them and talk to them directly about it. I am a smartparts distibuter so I may get some special info, but they were very open to talk about it so try.

  16. #496
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    Originally posted by jinxed


    So Bill Gardner is being "very open about the patent".

    But then DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHY HE IS SUING ICD AND WDP.
    SO THIS IS LIE #1

    Then it completely contradicts the statement from SPESH.
    SO ThIS IS LIE #2.

    So until SP comes forward and actually tells us what there intentions are, then I have to assume they are going to contunue to lie to us.

    So, in a way you helped confirm the worst for us!!

    Nick

  17. #497
    Just another thought on some possibilities....... people are also failing to see some of the OTHER affects such as smart parts europe, international patents, and possible international affects that this *could* have, granted that is a BROAD look, but so is their patent, and this isnt really just a US matter, for now it is with ICD, but after ICD, it quiet possibly be an international ordeal.


    I know its thinking a little *TOO* far ahead but in reality, everything about this is going fast, so it could be one day this next day the world (not literally but ya get the point)

    Just some "food for thought" or however that saying goes.

  18. #498
    Originally posted by jinxed


    Well.
    The Kingman Spyder is a NEAR EXACT COPY of the ICD Promaster.
    The ICD Promaster was loosely based on the Sheridan PMI3, which was not patented to "encourage the market to produce aftermarket parts". (only the PMI3 detent is patented).
    The PMI3 itself was loosely based on the "Enforcer Semi" designed by Chauncey of CooperT-.

    How does this relate to the SMart Parts case?
    Someone in 2002 just patented the generic stacked-tube blowback!!!! 12 years after the PMI-3.HERE IS THE LINK

    This fact alone proves that the patent system is a compelete waste. How could the patent office grant that patent?
    But they did, which partially explains how they awarded SmartParts its ridiculous patents..

    Nick

    Nice point on the patent system, also, not just kingman look at ALL of the stacked-tube clones out there. EVERYONE of them has an electro - 32*, m3, and all those little no name ones. Those clones are the most common and popular marker on the entire paintball scene as a whole. When releasing electro's around 100 bucks they sell thousands on end and that will kill ALOT of business's if they are allowed to control a patent over the entire electro market, which their revisions and patents out there claim.

  19. #499
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    Why I don't think SP will stop at just ICD and WDP

    2 years ago SP sent out notices of possible infringement to EVERY electronic gun manufacturer offering to work out a deal. That includes ICD, BL, AGD, WDP and Kingman, as far as I am aware it was to everyone.

    No-one took them seriously or thought they had valid claims so nothing was done and no deals made.

    Then SP start out by going after ICD.

    The very fact 2 years ago they though they had a case against all electro gun manufacturers leads me to think they will not stop after ICD or WDP now that they think their case is stronger and they have more patents granted.

  20. #500
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    Assuming, of coarse, that these notices were actually sent out (again, proof?)

    One would wonder, was no research into these patents done 2 years ago?

    If 2 years ago, the claim was dismissed, how can things have changed in 2 years?

    What would SP have gained by sitting on their hands for 2 years .. when nothing would change the facts in the matter .. therefore, their case would be just as strong (or lack thereof) as 2 years ago.

    Is there any documentation regarding your claim that SP was/is "going after ICD."

    Believe me, I am in no way 'sticking up' for SP .. I am just trying to curb any 'flying off the handle' before we can even assertain that SP plans on doing anything with these patents .. I mean, they've had 2 years already and not a peep out of them regarding any lawsuits (that I am aware of)
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  21. #501
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    I've got an idea, how about we let the companies being sued handle this?

  22. #502
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    Originally posted by -Carnifex-
    I've got an idea, how about we let the companies being sued handle this?
    If you saw someone being mugged would you stand there and watch or go to their assistance?

  23. #503
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    Originally posted by -Carnifex-
    I've got an idea, how about we let the companies being sued handle this?
    OK-
    Smart Parts
    Huge Company
    Lots of Money
    Owned by corrupt patent lawyers

    vs

    ICD
    Small Company
    Owner is in hospital
    Daughter running the shop
    Lawyers paid out of pocket (or even probono).

    So, not exactly a fair fight and ICD -has asked for help-

    -NIck

  24. #504
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    Originally posted by slushee
    Assuming, of coarse, that these notices were actually sent out (again, proof?)

    Could someone provide proof?

    One would wonder, was no research into these patents done 2 years ago?


    I'm sure it was, it's just no one thought SP would act on them.

    If 2 years ago, the claim was dismissed, how can things have changed in 2 years?


    Companies are bigger, SP can get a bigger chunk of the pie now.

    What would SP have gained by sitting on their hands for 2 years .. when nothing would change the facts in the matter .. therefore, their case would be just as strong (or lack thereof) as 2 years ago.


    Check what I said last.

    Is there any documentation regarding your claim that SP was/is "going after ICD."


    I guess we'll see on Sept. 3.

    Believe me, I am in no way 'sticking up' for SP .. I am just trying to curb any 'flying off the handle' before we can even assertain that SP plans on doing anything with these patents .. I mean, they've had 2 years already and not a peep out of them regarding any lawsuits (that I am aware of)


    That's understandable, it's hard to acurately speculate right now.
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  25. #505
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    Assuming, of coarse, that these notices were actually sent out (again, proof?)

    Ask any of the e-gun manufacturers. I think you may also be able to find it via a search because it was discussed at the time (you may get lost in all the current stuff though)

    One would wonder, was no research into these patents done 2 years ago?

    yes, but the patents cited then seemed to tight and didn't relate to many of the e-guns out there. Also people looked at the prior art and didn't take SP too seriously

    If 2 years ago, the claim was dismissed, how can things have changed in 2 years?

    I don't think it was dismissed. I'm not certain what happened but I think SP drew it out until they got new broader patents granted, and then went back at ICD using the new patents

    What would SP have gained by sitting on their hands for 2 years .. when nothing would change the facts in the matter .. therefore, their case would be just as strong (or lack thereof) as 2 years ago.

    They got broader patent claims which makes it easier to go after the e-gun companies. I think they have had at least 2 patents granted since then. They also have 2 or 3 more in the pending stages

    Is there any documentation regarding your claim that SP was/is "going after ICD."

    ? apart from the Court cases, SP's e-mails, letters to all the e-gun companies, people talking to ICD and SP, and people being deposed to give evidence in the case?... nah not much

    Believe me, I am in no way 'sticking up' for SP .. I am just trying to curb any 'flying off the handle' before we can even assertain that SP plans on doing anything with these patents .. I mean, they've had 2 years already and not a peep out of them regarding any lawsuits (that I am aware of)

    They have been busy during those 2 years, the case has been on going (law takes a long time) and they have been working on new patents and new claims. The 'peep' is happening now.

  26. #506
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    WoW


    Thanks manike and Ov3rmind! We all will benifit with that info.

    Do you have a link to the court proceedings on that suit against ICD?

  27. #507
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    Originally posted by manike


    If you saw someone being mugged would you stand there and watch or go to their assistance?

    hmmmm,i would watch,especially if the guy had a gun

  28. #508
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    Originally posted by toolfan62
    hmmmm,i would watch,especially if the guy had a gun
    Would it make a difference if the gun was electronic or mechanical???


  29. #509
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    I wanted to add some information about patent law. lot of misinformation flyiing around here.

    US patent is only good for US. most country have their own patent office, and europe has one for the EU. There is 1 year grace period in US for filing patent after making the information public. In europe, once the information is public, you cannot file patent.(no grace period) Patent must be filed in each country.


    You can file a patent on anything not already patented. It cannot be obvious. Now, if another person can prove prior art(that the patent idea was already being used) before the filing date, the patent will get thrown out. Because of this, if it is too broad, it has greater chance of being voided. this usually takes a court action.

    For example, you could possibly patent how the trigger set off the electrical switch in paintball marker. They can even cover using variety of switches including contact, opto and magnetic. (I don't know if that is what SP did as i have not read their patent) There is trick to writing a good patent. cover as much as possible, but not make it so broad. Another example. Usuing battery for electronic trigger system is probably not patentable. anything electronic by default use battery, so it is obvious. Of course, using windup capacitive discharge system to power it, might be patentable.

    I am not a lawyer, but I had a seminar on patent, when I filed for mine. (work for fortune 500 company in r&d)

    Hope this helps clear some stuff up...

  30. #510
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    Ghetto-reasoning for all of this:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by pputkowski; 07-23-2003 at 08:00 PM.

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