Smart Parts Patent Will Destroy Paintball! - Read!

[AGD]

People let me tell you, this is VERY VERY REAL. If you don't believe it, call Smart Parts directly and ask them if they have the patent rights on all electronic guns.

Why do you think we have been working on the ULE Trigger?

AGD

[AGD]

You all think this is a joke and that it can't possibly happen. There are threads on PBN right now saying the same thing. I can tell you with absoulute authority that SP has a very broad patent that covers everything that shoots paintballs with a battery. Go ahead and joke around about it I'm sure you will find it really funny in the end.

AGD

[AGD]

Shartley, I will ask you nicely to please back off. This thread is breaking down.

AGD

[Flamebo]

This is messed up. I haven't played in over a year, but I was thinking of picking up a used Impy or something to see if I'd like to get back into it. Scratch the Impulse I guess. This is straight off the website, but I'll make it easier for you to "express your discontent":

Product Information: sales@smartparts.com
Sponsorship Requests: spesh@smartparts.com
Dealer List Updates: karen@smartparts.com
Website Support: webmaster@smartparts.com

Store Hours: Monday-Friday
10:00 AM to 6:00 PM
Eastern Standard Time
Mailing Address: PO Box 3200
Latrobe, PA 15650-5000
Shipping Address: Loyalhanna Business Complex
100 Station Street
Loyalhanna, PA 15661
Phone Number: (724) 539-2660
Fax Number: (724) 539-2298

Fax away, boys.

[Load SM5]

How about we keep this an informative discussion and not a whiney flamefest. Keep it clean.

[Webmaster]

I havent read this whole thread - but it doesnt surprise me. Its status quo. The have been quietly in the process of suing people who I consider friends at ICD.

They fail to innovate - only impersonate.

Furthermore - if they try to enforce thier broad patent they are personally kicking every person in the sport square in the nuts.

Tom Kaye, Tippmann, Palmer, Orr - they all have made inventions in this sport that caused it to grow and progress as a whole. They didnt capitalize on it - they allowed thier innovations to be used and bring the sport out of the stone ages.

I think doc nickle has a great post here:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/...eid=1058842375

Personally - I have been anti smart parts for 3-4 years.

And if they most to further enforce their patent - I give them a big heafty screw you.

[Miscue]

Humm... maybe AGD should patent the yellow pin idea.

[Miscue]

Now here's a question.

Let's say... that Smart Parts wins this. What if all the tourny leagues in a coordinated effort ban electros from tourny play... kinda like F1 getting rid of fly-by-wire? No more demand for electros... SP screws themselves...

And then... what if after this point, all the leagues boycott SP? SP gear/clothes etc... = not tourny legal?

I may be reaching here... but just thinking.

If the leagues threatened to do this in retaliation... would SP push for this?

[PsychoBaller]

Cough..... screw SmartParts.... cough....

~da "never liked them anyways" baller

[ah137]

Originally posted by AGD
You all think this is a joke and that it can't possibly happen. There are threads on PBN right now saying the same thing. I can tell you with absoulute authority that SP has a very broad patent that covers everything that shoots paintballs with a battery. Go ahead and joke around about it I'm sure you will find it really funny in the end.

AGD

Well there are few people who do believe this, SO WTF are we going to do about it?

~Hills

[Paintball_Foo]

Alright I'm almost done listening to this crap.

WGP has a patent for a closed bolt marker, becuase they have a patent for a closed bolt marker does that mean everyone else the designs a closed bolt marker to be produced will have to pay a royalty fee or have permission from WGP?... NO!

It works exactly the same way with this patent (if it even exists), by the way has anyone even seen the patent on the patents office website? Nope....

The WAS guy got pissed becuase this patent may rule out him being able to reproduce a board for SP's own marker and to SP's specs so he's obviousley going around like a slander whore to everyone.... Really, get over it.


And I don't even use anything that is SP or plan to for some time.

[paintball8869]

Any paintball gun manufacturers out there want to start a fund for combatting the SP lawsuits? I mean, I'd definitely chip in a few bucks, as a ton of others would, to help keep electros coming from EVERYONE.

I'd personally hate to see a world of only Smart Parts guns. That'd be a waste. Thank God I have my ripper intimidator and my ironmen on the way I don't care what they say, they'll have to pry them from my cold dead hands to get them away from me. As I understand it, we'd still be able to use them, etc......so it's not a problem for me, unless I wanted to buy a new electro in the future (which would probably be the xmag when they're out in full production, ie readily available). I don't need SP screwing up my future electro purchases.

SOMEONE PLEASE SETUP AN ANTI-SP FUND THROUGH PAYPAL. PLEEEEEAAAAAAAASE.

[50 cal]

I don't see how they could have possibly be granted a patent on this. There are way too many electronic devices with on/off switches. This could blow up in SP's faces.

[Wahooka]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but other than the fact that SP owns several patents and the current law suit against ICD, isn't everything else just speculation and rumors?

I've spent the last 3 hours reading various threads on several different forums, and it seems to me that this anti-SP craze borders on mass-hysteria.

I have not seen any factual information regarding lawsuits other than the current SP vs. ICD suit. And, no one even knows the specifics of that!

Smart Parts Patent Will Destroy Paintball!

A strongly worded thread title followed by a post full of speculation. How will the Smart Parts Patent DESTROY paintball? That's a strong claim.

The facts as far as I can tell are that SP owns several patents, some of which are very broad and general. And, they are currently suing ICD for a yet to be released gun design. Will this destroy paintball?

I've read posts describing how Smarts Parts will charge royalties driving up marker prices and forcing some companies out of business. Isn't this just speculation? We're boycotting based on speculation? Is it okay if I wait to boycott until after they do something other than just own a patent? I must be missing something.

I'll freak out when I'm reading factual information; not hype, rumors and speculation. Sorry, but people are going a little overboard.

And please, enough of the Nazi/Swastika BS. Seriously. That ticks me off more than anything I've seen. Connecting that tragic period of history with something this trivial (yes trivial!) is offensive, irresponsible and just plain foolish.

[PAINTMAN112]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
If the rumor is correct, it's just not $75 per marker. There would be a 1 millon dollar signing fee before any units could be sold at all.

you said it yourself its a rumor, things like happen quite often in several industries, how often do the big companies win.. look at microsoft? if sp wins this patent lawsuit whocares they will most likely control the marker market via monopoly then get broken up that way. Sure they are wrong for doing this, but is it likely they will win no, and if its only a rumor why worry about it?

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by jinxed


Well, we all know that Adam Gardner and George Davidson of Smart Parts were sued by the FTC for illegally manipulating the patent system to steal money from inventors a few years ago.

This issue in that case wasn't about them manipulating patent law. It was about them taking peoples money for services involving patenting and marketing new inventions that the didn't, and in some cases couldn't, provide. Stealing basicly

Originally posted by jinxed
It "looks" like they are again manipulating the patent system to steal money from other inventors.
It "looks" very bad.

-Nick Brassard
-Master of the Pan Flute

I agree and this is why what they are doing is "moraly" wrong (IMHO). It would appear that they have deliberatly broadened their patent so they could try and cash in on other companies markers. It is the fact that they broadened then sued as aposed to sueing under an existing patent that I, and it seems many others, don't like.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by slushee
Do you have a link to the court proceedings on that suit against ICD?

Court proceedings are not generally available on the web.

If you are taking about filed cases and court decisions (of which there are no decisions regarding this issue at this point) you'll have to pay the fees to access the "Westlaw" web site to get the official documents unless someone's law firm givers them a e-copy to post (guess how often this happens).

[slushee]

Assuming, of coarse, that these notices were actually sent out (again, proof?)

One would wonder, was no research into these patents done 2 years ago?

If 2 years ago, the claim was dismissed, how can things have changed in 2 years?

What would SP have gained by sitting on their hands for 2 years .. when nothing would change the facts in the matter .. therefore, their case would be just as strong (or lack thereof) as 2 years ago.

Is there any documentation regarding your claim that SP was/is "going after ICD."

Believe me, I am in no way 'sticking up' for SP .. I am just trying to curb any 'flying off the handle' before we can even assertain that SP plans on doing anything with these patents .. I mean, they've had 2 years already and not a peep out of them regarding any lawsuits (that I am aware of)

[slushee]

WoW


Thanks manike and Ov3rmind! We all will benifit with that info.

Do you have a link to the court proceedings on that suit against ICD?

[manike]

As Tom says this is a very serious matter.

Big money has been spent on both sides of the current litigation and this looks to be only just the start of what is to come.

It's going to take a court of law to determine the future rights to the use of electro guns.

SP are out to control all electronic guns...

[manike]

Originally posted by bryceeden
I spent some time on the phone with smartparts, and yes this is definatly a bad deal it isn't as bad as this thread makes it sound. SP only plans on sueing WDP and ICD, so while it will greatly affect Angels and Bushmasters it won't realy change anything else too much. In the end AGD and WGP won't even be afected unless smartparts is lying to thier distributers.

Yeah right and you believe that?

They set a precedent against the smaller companies and the one they don't like (WDP) and then you think they will stop there rather than raking in the extra millions from the other companies? If you believe that... I have some swamp land I want to sell you

Originally The Smart Parts reply from "Spesh" at SP:

"Smart Parts as a company is not suing every company but we are going after Indian Creek Designs at the moment. It is a lawsuit that does pertain to the electronic gun design. I’m really not sure why people are trying to boycott or even have any interest in this matter. We did invent and do have patents on certain electronic gun designs, that other companies have used to further there own line of markers. We as a company tried to settle these issues out of court but none of the other companies would do that so we are suing for patent infringement on our ideas, just like any company or person who has invented something would. You can’t have companies stealing ideas from people and or companies to further there own business and not give back to the inventor. I assure you we are not going after these companies for selfish reasons; we are only trying to run an honest and family oriented business that makes the best paintball products out there. If everyone can steal your ideas and get away with it then where would this country be today? Thank you so much for your support" [/B]

Notice how they say "Indian Creek at the moment"...

The only gun they invented or rather had designed for them is the shocker. Everything else has been ripped off from other people's designs.

Funny how they have a problem being ripped off by others but not ripping off others...

Funny how they submarined their patents (a classic tactic) in order to adapt them to cover things invented and designed by other people that were outside of their original patented ideas.

You can’t have companies stealing ideas from people and or companies to further there own business and not give back to the inventor. I assure you we are not going after these companies for selfish reasons; we are only trying to run an honest and family oriented business that makes the best paintball products out there.

Stop me before my sides split please!

Jinxed patents do have life spans, so the USA one will be completely public domain no and everyone is allowed to use technology described in it.

Surreal, they are only sueing ICD and WDP at the MOMENT! Also the Bushmaster was designed and on sale long, LONG, before the Impulse.

[manike]

Originally posted by shartley
About the manual AGD trigger…. Folks are assuming that was because of this SP issue (and AGD has ALMOST stated so), and not just happen to be in the same time period. Of course it would be stated it is because of it, it shows great forethought…. I am however, skeptical.

Nothing new there then

Many of us who follow paintball patents have known this was coming for years. But no-one took it all that seriously until a year or two ago.

The latest broadest patent was granted Nov 5th 2002 and so Tom has had plenty of time to develop the ULE trigger, even if it was only at that point that he became concerned.

Before that those of us that knew about it, hardly took it seriously. The latest 2 patents changed that.

I thought it was all too broad and with too much prior art to be valid. But they kept getting the patents broadened and are now going to court with them... so now we all take it very seriously.

[manike]

Sam, I skimmed your post because to be quite honest there is too much going on right now.

But I agree the USPTO is at blame. They are a joke in many cases and would rather allow it to be fought out in a court of law at a later date. That's a problem with the USA system.

But SP are also to blame for their practices in getting the patent and trying to patent something that was prior art and not invented by them.

Also the industry can not seriously go after all spurious patents. That's just absurd and far too costly.

Should they now go after the guy that patented the powerfeed 10 years after they were in production?

Or the guy that patented the barrel condomn 10-12 years after they were being used already?

The cost is phenomenal and you only take patents seriously when people do something with them.

It would cost more to go after the spurious patents from the start than fight the few that come to court.

Just having a patent isn't worth ANYTHING. Having it, and the money and the balls to try and enfore it is what makes it worthwhile.

Sam you seem to be on one of your crusades again because you have something fun to debate. Doesn't mean you know crap about what's going on though.

Going to the root of the problem at the USPTO? Don't make my sides split, they are just another USA money making corporation. They don't care. They also are out to make as much money as possible, and if that means lots more patents being filed and granted then goody for them.

You know that even after the work is done to get a patent and all is done and dusted. They STILL charge you more for the fact it's granted... why is that? There is nothing else to be done... $$$

Only very recently have they allowed pending patents to be seen, and give people a chance to see what BS is about to be granted. Previously this wasn't possible and there was no way to get patents stopped before the USPTO grants them.

That's one thing which is much better about the UK system.

Don't make frivelous comparisons about this and some nut shooting people. That's low and wrong. In that case prevention 100% in this case it's not a valid arguement (although I'm sure you will think differently).

[manike]

If that's the case then kindly ask Bill just which claims of which patents exactly they think ICD and WDP are infringing...

We can all go and read the patents and claims quite easily.

[manike]

Originally posted by shartley
Interesting….. but I don’t think that is entirely true.

Then you don't know about the subject you are debating.

Originally posted by shartley
Yet folks fault SP for having all 3….. interesting.

I wouldn't fault them if I thought they had those 3 things legitimately.

I would pat them on the back and be supporting them whole heartedly.

[manike]

Originally posted by shartley
And it could be argued the same about your statements. It is differing of views, not fact.

And it seems that SP is NOT doing what folks are CLAIMING they are….. maybe you would back them if you KNEW what they were doing?

Sam once again you are miles off base. What I am saying is facts I know, because I am involved in this.

I know both what SP are doing and how others are countering it. I'm involved, I've spoken directly to many involved, read the patents and case history, as well as helped with information, and have been doing so for many months now.

I'm making known what information I can. You are just making up opinions. Once again you are full of it but not man enough to back down when others know more than you.

[manike]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[manike]

Originally posted by Nastyimp13
everyone needs to stop b****ing. Boycotting smart parts is not gonna do anything.

Why wouldn't it?

lower sales of their current products and lower the residual value of the products already sold (so people don't want to buy new?)

You don't think that wouldn't effect SP any?

[manike]

2 years ago SP sent out notices of possible infringement to EVERY electronic gun manufacturer offering to work out a deal. That includes ICD, BL, AGD, WDP and Kingman, as far as I am aware it was to everyone.

No-one took them seriously or thought they had valid claims so nothing was done and no deals made.

Then SP start out by going after ICD.

The very fact 2 years ago they though they had a case against all electro gun manufacturers leads me to think they will not stop after ICD or WDP now that they think their case is stronger and they have more patents granted.

[manike]

Originally posted by -Carnifex-
I've got an idea, how about we let the companies being sued handle this?

If you saw someone being mugged would you stand there and watch or go to their assistance?