Smart Parts Patent Will Destroy Paintball! - Read!

**Thordic** · 07-23-2003, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by manike
I have some swamp land I want to sell you

Simon, you know we're friends and all, but no, you can't sell my state...

**manike** · 07-23-2003, 07:52 AM

Sam, I skimmed your post because to be quite honest there is too much going on right now.

But I agree the USPTO is at blame. They are a joke in many cases and would rather allow it to be fought out in a court of law at a later date. That's a problem with the USA system.

But SP are also to blame for their practices in getting the patent and trying to patent something that was prior art and not invented by them.

Also the industry can not seriously go after all spurious patents. That's just absurd and far too costly.

Should they now go after the guy that patented the powerfeed 10 years after they were in production?

Or the guy that patented the barrel condomn 10-12 years after they were being used already?

The cost is phenomenal and you only take patents seriously when people do something with them.

It would cost more to go after the spurious patents from the start than fight the few that come to court.

Just having a patent isn't worth ANYTHING. Having it, and the money and the balls to try and enfore it is what makes it worthwhile.

Sam you seem to be on one of your crusades again because you have something fun to debate. Doesn't mean you know crap about what's going on though.

Going to the root of the problem at the USPTO? Don't make my sides split, they are just another USA money making corporation. They don't care. They also are out to make as much money as possible, and if that means lots more patents being filed and granted then goody for them.

You know that even after the work is done to get a patent and all is done and dusted. They STILL charge you more for the fact it's granted... why is that? There is nothing else to be done... $$$

Only very recently have they allowed pending patents to be seen, and give people a chance to see what BS is about to be granted. Previously this wasn't possible and there was no way to get patents stopped before the USPTO grants them.

That's one thing which is much better about the UK system.

Don't make frivelous comparisons about this and some nut shooting people. That's low and wrong. In that case prevention 100% in this case it's not a valid arguement (although I'm sure you will think differently).

**Albinonewt** · 07-23-2003, 07:52 AM

I haven't read most of the posts, there's just so many of them, but I thought I'd jump in a little.

If Smart Parts somehow wins their suit (which I'm trying to figure out how that could happen) it is very bad for paintball in the short run and possibly good in the long run.

Short:

Patents are inherently anti-competitive, they are designed to protect from competition. By enforcing the patent so late in the game it restricts the current manufacturers from being able to recoup any expenses associated with their current line of markers. By forcing them to either pay fees or sell different markers it creates an undue financial burden that could force out some companies.

Long:
By cutting off eletronic markers the lawsuit would actually jumpstart innovation that might have been otherwise put off until a later date. This is good for the industry, but the precedent the lawsuit would set may cause various companies to rush production in order to be the first to throw a patent label on something. That is obviously not good as it could affect the quality of the first generation of products.

I think what SP is trying to do is to artificially take over the electro gun market. From that limited perspective it isn't a bad plan they have, although they should take a little wider look at what they're doing.

**bryceeden** · 07-23-2003, 07:58 AM

Here is a quote from Allen Turner about the issue after he spoke directly to SP

WPPL Members and Friends,

I just got off the phone with Bill Gardner, Sr. the president of Smart Parts. He was very open about the patent issue.
They are pursuding two specific manufacturers for patent violations ICD and now a part of the WDP design (Angels).
The patent is not as broad as is being reported.

Bill said most of the information in the quotes are GROSS exaggerationions !!! In fact Bill was with Bud Orr last week and there was no discussion of the nature that is attributed to Bud in the quotes. Bill doubts thier accuracy.

Bill also explained that Patent law is very complex and they are only trying to enforce some specific designs that they feel are express violations of thier Patents. They are not attacking the E-Marker industry. No one can say with accuracy how this will resolve, but for now it only involves two companies and even if they win the patent it will only force the companies to change thier designs.

I dont like to perpetuate mis information that is why I called Smart Parts Directly, to get real information. Smart Parts is preparing a Press Release regarding the patent issue, I will forward that information to anyone interested when it arrives.

**manike** · 07-23-2003, 08:07 AM

If that's the case then kindly ask Bill just which claims of which patents exactly they think ICD and WDP are infringing...

We can all go and read the patents and claims quite easily.

**shartley** · 07-23-2003, 08:09 AM

Another thing that just popped into my head was all the talk about who would owe who what. (Wow, now THAT was a sentence… LOL)

Does anyone actually KNOW how these things work? Does anyone know that just having a judgment against you for ANY amount of money does not mean you have to pay it THEN? Does anyone know that many judgments NEVER get paid? Does anyone know that companies can claim bankrupsy(sp?) in many cases and STILL continue to stay in business?

And does anyone know that a judgment can not be made that would guarantee a business be CLOSED? You can not litigate a business out of business by monetary penalties…. At least that is how I understand the law to be.

So, with that said….. if company A owed company B $50 for every product made, and they took a $100 loss on all products produced NOW, they would catch up to the past product numbers in time without taking a substantial loss in overall current business funds. In NO way would a company proven to not be able to pay the total sum be forced to close up shop and sell off all assets to do so. Chances are if that was even tried, they would close up shop and file for bankruptsy… and who wins then?

Originally posted by manike
Sam, I skimmed your post because to be quite honest there is too much going on right now.

Yet you will still comment on what I said….

Originally posted by manike
The cost is phenomenal and you only take patents seriously when people do something with them.

Interesting….. but I don’t think that is entirely true.

Originally posted by manike
Just having a patent isn't worth ANYTHING. Having it, and the money and the balls to try and enfore it is what makes it worthwhile.

Yet folks fault SP for having all 3….. interesting.

Originally posted by manike
Sam you seem to be on one of your crusades again because you have something fun to debate. Doesn't mean you know crap about what's going on though.

I am not on a crusade… well, no more than YOU or anyone else in this thread is.

And you are correct, it does not mean ANY of us know what is going on, to include you, Tom, Doc., or any of the other members posting on this issue….. but then again, it doesn’t mean I, or anyone else does NOT either.

Originally posted by manike
Don't make frivelous comparisons about this and some nut shooting people. That's low and wrong. In that case prevention 100% in this case it's not a valid arguement (although I'm sure you will think differently).

Then I want to see you say to everyone who uses Nazi references and SP, and has Nazi symbols to reference SP to stop as well. We both know that is NOT what they are, no matter how wrong we may feel they are for doing what they are doing (funny how that has not even been fully verified eiher).

Originally posted by bryceeden
Here is a quote from Allen Turner about the issue after he spoke directly to SP

WPPL Members and Friends,

I just got off the phone with Bill Gardner, Sr. the president of Smart Parts. He was very open about the patent issue.
They are pursuding two specific manufacturers for patent violations ICD and now a part of the WDP design (Angels).
The patent is not as broad as is being reported.

Bill said most of the information in the quotes are GROSS exaggerationions !!! In fact Bill was with Bud Orr last week and there was no discussion of the nature that is attributed to Bud in the quotes. Bill doubts thier accuracy.

Bill also explained that Patent law is very complex and they are only trying to enforce some specific designs that they feel are express violations of thier Patents. They are not attacking the E-Marker industry. No one can say with accuracy how this will resolve, but for now it only involves two companies and even if they win the patent it will only force the companies to change thier designs.

I dont like to perpetuate mis information that is why I called Smart Parts Directly, to get real information. Smart Parts is preparing a Press Release regarding the patent issue, I will forward that information to anyone interested when it arrives.

THANK YOU!

And this is what I was HOPING was the case. But it is much more fun having an evil enemy to bash….. rightly or not. I always suggest if folks have questions they ask the source…. But then they would most likely find out they have nothing to really get upset about. GRRRRRR Grab yer pitchforks! Mob mentality is a wonderful thing.

**manike** · 07-23-2003, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by shartley
Interesting….. but I don’t think that is entirely true.

Then you don't know about the subject you are debating.

Originally posted by shartley
Yet folks fault SP for having all 3….. interesting.

I wouldn't fault them if I thought they had those 3 things legitimately.

I would pat them on the back and be supporting them whole heartedly.

**shartley** · 07-23-2003, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by manike
Then you don't know about the subject you are debating.

And it could be argued the same about your statements. It is differing of views, not fact.

Originally posted by manike
I wouldn't fault them if I thought they had those 3 things legitimately.

I would pat them on the back and be supporting them whole heartedly.

And it seems that SP is NOT doing what folks are CLAIMING they are….. maybe you would back them if you KNEW what they were doing?

I suggest folks wait to actually see what they are doing as opposed to making gross exaggerations, speculations, and nightmare scenarios. It seems to me that few people in this thread actually KNOW what is going on, and that includes Me, You, and all of the other reputable people who have posted.

But I suppose I am wrong for suggesting folks actually KNOW what is happening before passing judgment on the matter.

I have a feeling lots of folks will be eating crow when all the dust settles.

**jdev** · 07-23-2003, 08:27 AM

i am interested in recieving this information once it becomes available.

**AndrewGore(OTB)** · 07-23-2003, 09:00 AM

Hey,
Here is a little link that might help some people with their patent "questions". http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html Just go and search for patents that were submitted by someone at SP. Maybe then people will see whats really up. Or go here: http://airsoldier.com/~haveblue/tech/patents/index.html There are a BUNCH of SP's patents on there. Just make sure you have adobe acrobat.

Andrew -
hopin' this helps clear stuff up a tiny bit

**Thordic** · 07-23-2003, 09:10 AM

Blah blah blah, Sam likes to argue, blah blah blah.

**manike** · 07-23-2003, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by shartley
And it could be argued the same about your statements. It is differing of views, not fact.

And it seems that SP is NOT doing what folks are CLAIMING they are….. maybe you would back them if you KNEW what they were doing?

Sam once again you are miles off base. What I am saying is facts I know, because I am involved in this.

I know both what SP are doing and how others are countering it. I'm involved, I've spoken directly to many involved, read the patents and case history, as well as helped with information, and have been doing so for many months now.

I'm making known what information I can. You are just making up opinions. Once again you are full of it but not man enough to back down when others know more than you.

**shartley** · 07-23-2003, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by manike

Sam once again you are miles off base. What I am saying is facts I know, because I am involved in this.

I know both what SP are doing and how others are countering it. I'm involved, I've spoken directly to many involved, read the patents and case history, as well as helped with information, and have been doing so for many months now.

I'm making known what information I can. You are just making up opinions. Once again you are full of it but not man enough to back down when others know more than you.

How so? Seems to me that what was posted coming from SP does not back your claims of what they may or may not be doing. I didn’t make that up.

And please don’t get into what I am “man enough” to do. I did not make personal comments about you, so don’t do it to me. I also can’t be “wrong” about much of anything since I only took a neutral position. LOL You have also failed to prove me wrong on anything… you only make statements and expect everyone to take them as facts…. With no proof of your own. They very well MAY be facts, but you just stating something does not MAKE is fact.

Now as to anyone else that may want to turn this into a Shartley issue…..

Not every thread I post in has to come down to someone personally attacking me, or making comments about me personally. Some of you would do well to realize this. And your continual attacks on me don’t make you look too intelligent. If you disagree with what I post, just form a rational response and post it. But leave your thoughts about me personally out of it.

I have taken GREAT care to not attack anyone personally on ANY thread for quite some time. I would appreciate it if any personal attacks on me were kept to yourselves.

**joshuagore** · 07-23-2003, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by bryceeden

I dont like to perpetuate mis information that is why I called Smart Parts Directly, to get real information.

I hope you didn't expect to call Smart Parts and get a response like. Yes we are looking to go after all electronic marker manufacturers, which will also ultimately hurt paintball.

Gardner said what he had to.

**shartley** · 07-23-2003, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by joshuagore

I hope you didn't expect to call Smart Parts and get a response like. Yes we are looking to go after all electronic marker manufacturers, which will also ultimately hurt paintball.

Gardner said what he had to.

And of course since they are so evil, they CAN’T be telling the truth either.

This is coming down to who folks WANT to believe, not who may be telling the truth.

**manike** · 07-23-2003, 09:37 AM

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

**shartley** · 07-23-2003, 09:39 AM

The early bird gets the worm.

Or how about….

Man who fornicates on ground has piece on earth. ?

**DK1** · 07-23-2003, 09:40 AM

well, for those seeking more info, I know of a guy named Ed who has flied for an account to access the 9th district federal court case files in Portland, OR. It's close to free (7 cents a page for access I think), but it just takes some time to process. Once he has it, I'm sure he'll let us all in on the specific details of the case. Then you can see pretty much whatever is released officially reguarding this thing...

DK1

**Thordic** · 07-23-2003, 09:41 AM

Hee haw, hee haw.

**shartley** · 07-23-2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by Thordic
Hee haw, hee haw.

Now THAT is intelligent….

LOL

**jinxed** · 07-23-2003, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by bryceeden

I just got off the phone with Bill Gardner, Sr. the president of Smart Parts. He was very open about the patent issue.
They are pursuding two specific manufacturers for patent violations ICD and now a part of the WDP design (Angels).
The patent is not as broad as is being reported.

So Bill Gardner is being "very open about the patent".

But then DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHY HE IS SUING ICD AND WDP.
SO THIS IS LIE #1

Then it completely contradicts the statement from SPESH.
SO ThIS IS LIE #2.

So until SP comes forward and actually tells us what there intentions are, then I have to assume they are going to contunue to lie to us.

So, in a way you helped confirm the worst for us!!

Nick

**theguy** · 07-23-2003, 10:07 AM

I'm not sure if this has already been posted here but here's another statement from SP about the issue: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/...eid=1058928076

**shartley** · 07-23-2003, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by theguy
I'm not sure if this has already been posted here but here's another statement from SP about the issue: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/...eid=1058928076

I read through all that… and it seems to me that this is not an official statement from SP at all, but an e-mail sent from an employee that is claimed to be in charge of sponsorships. It is no more official than if one of AGD’s in-house techs sent an e-mail to someone.

It is not a statement from SP, but a statement made by one of their employees. There is a difference. I would, if I was SP, tell ALL employees to not respond in any way to questions asked. That is pretty standard procedure. Let SP make their press release and go from there…..

**Da1spaz247** · 07-23-2003, 11:03 AM

Couldn't this patent be considered a Monopoly???? I know very little about monopolies and stuff but I thought that is what sp is doing.

At least if all electros get banned or something, we 'Mag' users already have the BEST manual guns!!!

*prepares for flames from cocker users*

**Nastyimp13** · 07-23-2003, 12:26 PM

everyone needs to stop b****ing. Boycotting smart parts is not gonna do anything.

**SuiciDal Sn Y p ER** · 07-23-2003, 12:28 PM

...i just blew $1,400 on a x-mag and now i hear this? is a x-mag a violation of smart parts thingy majigy?...magigy...majigee..majige....

**JT2002** · 07-23-2003, 12:35 PM

OMG!! lets get thsi straight for everyone . THE SMART PARTS PATENT THINGS WILL HAVE NO AFFECT ON ANY HIGH PRICED ELECTRO YOU ARE CURRENTLY USING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT WILL ONYL EFFECT SOME FUTURE GUNS THAT YOU MAY WANT TO PURCHASE, BUT NOT THE ONES YOU ALREADY OWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 man lol people seem to keep thinking that sp is trying to have every marker that ppl own taken away from them lol.

**SuiciDal Sn Y p ER** · 07-23-2003, 12:46 PM

lol thank you for the clarification jt2002

**digitard** · 07-23-2003, 12:48 PM

www.boycottsp.com

Just an information site to voice your opinions in ONE place ... power in mass'

Dave

**manike** · 07-23-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Nastyimp13
everyone needs to stop b****ing. Boycotting smart parts is not gonna do anything.

Why wouldn't it?

lower sales of their current products and lower the residual value of the products already sold (so people don't want to buy new?)

You don't think that wouldn't effect SP any?

Thread: Smart Parts Patent Will Destroy Paintball! - Read!

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^^^^^ yea, what you said

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