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Thread: Smart Parts Patent Will Destroy Paintball! - Read!

  1. #331
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    I don't think the mods on AO can make this a sticky because it might be construed as the official opinion of Air Gun Designs.
    Respect that.

  2. #332
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    AND PIE REVOLUTION!!!!

    <B>*Warning: Your sig is too big*</B> -Miscue
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    Last edited by Miscue; 07-22-2003 at 03:44 PM.

  3. #333
    Hey jim, since you are very well knowed about this area, can you give us some insight about what to expect from this and SP might have or not have to win theyre cases? Alot of us are pretty confident that there is a bunch of prior art that wouldnt allow them to win but we know very little about how those things work.
    Perhaps you could even tell us what each side is likely to argue?

  4. #334
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    Smart Parts knows they are in a deep hole. They are probably sitting down with there lawyers as we speak.

    I still support Smart Parts products. They are using strategies many businesses use, you just may not know it. TimeWarner, Microsoft, ClearChannel Entertainment, several food companies, all do the samething Smart Parts does.


    The only barrel i have used for 5 years was the All American, and a week ago I switched over to a freak, and no complaints. I still want a 2003 Shocker, and I MAY buy one.



    I dont think Smart PArts will enforce this patent, they know they dug themselves into a deep whole and court costs alone to battle this will be beyond the amount of money they will make off enforcing this patent.
    Dub V

    Where greatness is learned
    and couches are burned

  5. #335
    shartley

    You've got some good points about patent rights and all but you seem to have missed the point that while the players don't have the right to argue with the patent itself we do have the right to discuss our opinions. We also have the right to not buy anything related to smart parts. These discussions are going to help some people make the decision on whether or not they're going to give smart parts any money. Considering how fast this seems to be taking off on several different forums it looks like smart parts made a serious mistake because there is a large number of people ready to not only never buy any product that sends money to smart parts but they're also willing to tell everyone they encounter to do the same.

    Personally I think I'll follow Doc Nickels example. Although if the supposed 1 million fee + $75 per marker goes through I will do as much as I can to further the boycott and awareness of this issue.

  6. #336
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    dude thats sooo gay of smart parts i used to like impulses now i would never buy one smart parts can go <B>*POOF*</B>

    <B>*Warning: Knock it off. Your sig is too big as well.*</B> -Miscue
    Last edited by Miscue; 07-22-2003 at 03:50 PM.

  7. #337
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    The freak is cool

    <B>*Warning: Sig too big.*</B> -Miscue
    Last edited by Miscue; 07-22-2003 at 03:51 PM.

  8. #338
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    who likes the new addition to my sig?

    <B>*Warning: Your sig is too big*</B> -Miscue
    Last edited by Miscue; 07-22-2003 at 03:46 PM.

  9. #339
    Well that was 12 LONG pages. After reading everything and considering both sides of the issue. Here is my opinon on the issue. SMART PARTS SUCKS! I used to love those guys, I mean sure there customer service was terrible but I loved my imp. I see these guys becomeing the next brass eagle. The company everyone loves to hate. Because in the words of shartley the are running there business like a business. Thats not what the players want. The players want a company who cares.

    Also while looking at there latest patent, it looks like that the electro was patented by ZAP. Then SP bought it as of Feb. 18, 2003.

    I think that this lawsuit has been known to the manufactures for a while. (IE. The ULE TRIGGER)
    However, it is just now going public. Tom I wish you the best.

    As for smart parts I have took it upon myself to call and harass the lady who answers the phone 3 times today. And you know what she tells me? We will have a offical response on our website in 2 weeks.


    Also, if anyone here is a hacker please PM me. I have a little idea for all your brainy people

  10. #340
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    Ok i got an idea, AGD should patent the compressed air tank for paintball, but only enforce the patent on smart parts max-flo's. Let all the other maunfacturers continue on as normal, then we'll see who get screwed over in the end.

    Did i hear someone call for a hacker? What exactly would you like to have done?

    Metal kids have more fun!!

    Atleast wipers are good for something........target practice.

    -=Proud 04 Shocker Owner=-

    ::::::Punishers Paintball::::::


  11. #341
    Yea, I could make some pretty bad things happen to the SP site.
    (by request, reset by Army)

  12. #342
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    Jeez, Cmon guys. Hack their site? Nah show some maturity. And take all of this Nazi crap out of your sigs, that stuff isnt needed. If you have a problem with them call and report it, dont hack their site

  13. #343
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    I have an idea that will solve everyones problems-

    Let ICD, AKA, BL, WDP, WGP, etc sell electros as "kits".

    Think about it- Most electros are just basic stacked-tube sheridans with "off the shelf" parts added. The standard sheridan design is NOT patented.
    Electropneumatic components are NOT patented.
    SO, if sold "unassembled" then they are not violating patents.

    For example. Most know that the Timmy was originally an upgraded Spyder.
    So, for Bob Long to get around Smart Parts monopoly:
    He could SELL a Millenium Spyder, and throw in some "off the self" parts, like a Clippard Ram, Clippard LPR, Mac valve, and a simple controller (WAS, MORLOCK, or even a simple Bill Mills homemade one).

    Same thing for any E-cocker. Sell a mechnical cocker, but throw some ram, noids, batteries, etc as "extra pieces".

    This is kinda like how you can legally buy unassembled machine guns, or switchblades... or even bombs.

    hmmm.... maybe I should patent my idea!
    (evil "smart parts" grin)

    Nick Brassard
    NE Devil Dogs

    Don't Support Paintball Nazis

    Boycott Smart Parts

  14. #344
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  15. #345
    Ok I called SP

    The woman who answered said that she personnaly know nothing, just that there is some stuff going on and that SP klnow some rumors are being spread. She said that she has started receiving more calls and up to 200 emails a day about it. So people do know and are expressing their concern which is good. She also said that SP is going to release a statement within 2 weeks, addresing all of the rumors, what is going on etc. So we will have to wait I guess.

    If you guys just want to call and let SP know that people are talking about it and they need to know what is going on that would be good.

  16. #346
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    heres the way im seeing it right now

    does smart parts have the right to defend their patent?- yes

    should smart parts defend its patents?- of course

    should it even have this patent in the first place?- no

  17. Originally posted by FutureMagOwner
    heres the way im seeing it right now

    does smart parts have the right to defend their patent?- yes

    should smart parts defend its patents?- of course

    should it even have this patent in the first place?- no
    you hit the nail right on the head there.
    Tom_Kaye: well it would have been nippinout
    Tom_Kaye: but like an idiot he said
    Tom_Kaye: I love tubgirl
    Tom_Kaye: we cant seem to let go of that chick

  18. #348
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    i always thought that you had to patent something before it is being manufactured by other companies, and shouldnt the patent holder be the people who first came up with the idea

    this whole thing is making me appreciate my mech mag a whole lot more
    Level 10, ULE bodied, X-Valved mag
    Flat black Intelliframe
    12"cp barrel
    CP mini gas-through
    Phsyco Ballistics Drop with on/off
    pmi 68ci 3000psi nitro tank

  19. #349
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    Originally posted by TJ03A
    shartley

    You've got some good points about patent rights and all but you seem to have missed the point that while the players don't have the right to argue with the patent itself we do have the right to discuss our opinions. We also have the right to not buy anything related to smart parts. These discussions are going to help some people make the decision on whether or not they're going to give smart parts any money. Considering how fast this seems to be taking off on several different forums it looks like smart parts made a serious mistake because there is a large number of people ready to not only never buy any product that sends money to smart parts but they're also willing to tell everyone they encounter to do the same.

    Personally I think I'll follow Doc Nickels example. Although if the supposed 1 million fee + $75 per marker goes through I will do as much as I can to further the boycott and awareness of this issue.
    Actually let me correct you… I didn’t miss anything. If you read what I wrote (all of it) you will find that I said the SAME thing you just did. I also never stated folks could not discuss the issue and disagree with it. And in fact, I advocated boycotts as a way for people to let their feelings known. I also advocated sending letters to SP.

    Please folks, don’t confuse my standing up for legal rights with what I think of the situation. They are two different things. As someone who used to have to enforce laws, I am a strict component of equal protection for all… no matter what I think of the person/company.

    With that said, I also don’t think this is an issue where SP is wanting to STOP bother companies from selling their products. I would be willing to bet that they WANT other companies to sell their products. This is why I think the numbers being touted as the fee and per marker price may be wrong. I have also stated that most often numbers START higher than what is the final figures…. This is standard for business. And anyone who has done business (or even purchased a car) knows better than to use the highest “possible” numbers and draw any conclusions from that… which is now being done by people who I have regarded as pretty intelligent people.

    I get the feeling that folks WANT to hate someone or something. And if it isn’t BE, why not SP? I don’t think any of us has sat down with SP and their lawyers and heard their entire case. This MAY be morally wrong, but it may NOT be as well. I will admit though, that making it morally wrong is easier to do, and hating someone or a company is much easier than to get their side of the story. Thank GOD our Legal System does not work that way. Thank GOD we can have our days in court. And thank GOD mob mentality and emotions don’t decide what is legally right or not.

    But does any of this say I agree with SP? NO. Does any of this say I think they are right? NO. Does any of this say I HOPE they win? NO!

    Again… I didn’t miss anything. Please don’t confuse issues, and what I said. I am not on anyone’s side. I am on the side of the system, and EVERYONE’S right to use it. And if SP continues with this and takes it all the way to court (which is their RIGHT), and they LOSE… then SHAME on them. But if they WIN….. kind of hard to fight that one. And then we will have to see what happens when everyone sits down at the bargaining table….. and as I stated, I don’t foresee the “doom and gloom” numbers that have been talked about being the final agreed upon figures. It does no one any good to force people out of business…. As I have stated, it is better to get smaller payments over a long time than it is to get NO payments now.

  20. #350
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    Originally posted by FutureMagOwner
    heres the way im seeing it right now

    does smart parts have the right to defend their patent?- yes

    should smart parts defend its patents?- of course

    should it even have this patent in the first place?- no
    BINGO!

    And that is what a court would decide if SP chooses to take it that far.

    It is like giving someone the winning lottery ticket, then when they co to collect you want to STOP them from doing so because they should not have been given the ticket in the first place. Well, why get upset because they are trying to collect. EVERYONE would.

    So what do you do? Attack THEM for trying to collect and say they are bad people? I say simply prove they shouldn’t have been given the ticket. That seems like a much easier thing to do, and takes all the wind out of the legal sails. Case closed.

  21. Originally posted by shartley

    BINGO!

    And that is what a court would decide if SP chooses to take it that far.

    It is like giving someone the winning lottery ticket, then when they co to collect you want to STOP them from doing so because they should not have been given the ticket in the first place. Well, why get upset because they are trying to collect. EVERYONE would.

    So what do you do? Attack THEM for trying to collect and say they are bad people? I say simply prove they shouldn’t have been given the ticket. That seems like a much easier thing to do, and takes all the wind out of the legal sails. Case closed.
    Smart Parts wasn't GIVEN the winning ticket, they went out and GOT it KNOWING THE CONSEQUENCES IT WOULD HAVE ON OTHER ELECTRONIC PAINTBALL GUN PRODUCING COMPANIES. That is why everyone DESPISES Smart Parts now.

  22. #352
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    Smart Parts wasn't GIVEN the winning ticket, they went out and GOT it KNOWING THE CONSEQUENCES IT WOULD HAVE ON OTHER ELECTRONIC PAINTBALL GUN PRODUCING COMPANIES. That is why everyone DESPISES Smart Parts now.
    Thats how buisness works man.

  23. #353
    WickedAirSportz Guest
    Smart Parts will argue that they received a patent. ICD will argue that there is prior art AND that Smart Parts deliberately altered their patent after it was granted to include references that were dropped in order to get the patent granted. They will also argue that the additions made to the patent clearly violate common sense, and were done in a backwards way to prevent the patent office from catching it.

    To me, the fault here lies with the patent office for not being thorough. This is very similar to the Brass Eagle/Odyssey lawsuit, where both companies were granted a patent for virtually the same thing.

    I believe there is in fact prior art (it's in black and white that there is). Its a matter of convincing the judge that there is. It is unfortunate that patent cases are not presented to a panel of judges instead of a single judge.

  24. #354
    Originally posted by cockermongol


    Smart Parts wasn't GIVEN the winning ticket, they went out and GOT it KNOWING THE CONSEQUENCES IT WOULD HAVE ON OTHER ELECTRONIC PAINTBALL GUN PRODUCING COMPANIES. That is why everyone DESPISES Smart Parts now.
    Or they were too dumb to think about the reprocussions this would cause, but I really doubt that.
    http://www.digitalpaintball.net

  25. #355
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    Originally posted by acecl22
    i always thought that you had to patent something before it is being manufactured by other companies, and shouldnt the patent holder be the people who first came up with the idea

    this whole thing is making me appreciate my mech mag a whole lot more
    No, that is not how it “has” to be done. In a perfect world, yes… but in reality no.

    That is why just having a patent, copyright, trademark, etc. does not guarantee anything. It makes is MUCH easier to defend your claims and rights if you must, but if you didn’t deserve the patent (and other examples) in the first place, but it was issued to you anyways, it can be contested. And THAT is what needs to happen with SP. The patent needs to be contested and thrown out if SP did not indeed deserve it.

    Then again, if the courts uphold the patent……

    That is why it is always best to stop things from going to court. If SP can be pressured to drop the issue via the means posted about (the LEGAL ONES), everyone wins… even SP if they do it right. This is not something SP can’t recover from, win or lose…. Even if they go all the way to court and lose.

    This type of thing happens more often than folks realize, and as has been stated, Paintball players in general have a short memory. They forgive very quickly as long as they can get back to playing. And anyone who wants to disagree with this just needs to go back and read about “Mr. Ninja”….. so much hate, so much talk about retribution, and virtually nothing changed.

    Folks just love to have an evil villain to rise up against…. Even if for 5 minutes. It makes some folks feel good to hate someone, for ANY reason, and it makes them feel somehow better about themselves. I fully understand this.. and it is natural. But I for one will sit back and see what the legal issues are, and if SP has any real grounds to stand on…. It looks like they do not, but I can’t say for sure….. it looks like THEY think they do however.

  26. #356
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    Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
    Smart Parts will argue that they received a patent. ICD will argue that there is prior art AND that Smart Parts deliberately altered their patent after it was granted to include references that were dropped in order to get the patent granted. They will also argue that the additions made to the patent clearly violate common sense, and were done in a backwards way to prevent the patent office from catching it.

    To me, the fault here lies with the patent office for not being thorough. This is very similar to the Brass Eagle/Odyssey lawsuit, where both companies were granted a patent for virtually the same thing.

    I believe there is in fact prior art (it's in black and white that there is). Its a matter of convincing the judge that there is. It is unfortunate that patent cases are not presented to a panel of judges instead of a single judge.
    I agree.

  27. #357
    I'm so disappointed in Smart Parts right now. Not only does it look like they're trying to pull a fast one, but they're doing it to the small guy first (ICD, an awesome company). Do they have the balls to take on WGP, WDP or AGD with this suit first? No. They're going after a much smaller company who may not have the financial resources to put up the fight necessary to save itself.

    I have bought my last SP product, and I'm letting them know that.

    Lets all hope that the Judge in this case has some common sense and puts SP in its place.

  28. #358
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    Alright I'm almost done listening to this crap.

    WGP has a patent for a closed bolt marker, becuase they have a patent for a closed bolt marker does that mean everyone else the designs a closed bolt marker to be produced will have to pay a royalty fee or have permission from WGP?... NO!

    It works exactly the same way with this patent (if it even exists), by the way has anyone even seen the patent on the patents office website? Nope....

    The WAS guy got pissed becuase this patent may rule out him being able to reproduce a board for SP's own marker and to SP's specs so he's obviousley going around like a slander whore to everyone.... Really, get over it.


    And I don't even use anything that is SP or plan to for some time.

  29. #359
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    i dont think you quite understand what is going on its not just about jim drew going potentially going outta business but MANY small companies going outta business. heres a copy and paste of something i typed up on the tippmann forum about this based on statements of multiple people.

    a boycot cannot work. plain and simple if smart parts wins they can simply live off royalties however they can get even more money, the whole point of this clever scheme thats been in the works since the companies establishment most likely, is plain and simple if they win, bushmasters and other competition in its range will go from the $400 range to $700 or more, and when it comes down to it will you pay 400 for something or 300+ more for the same basic performance of a gun? no you wouldnt that would be dumb. eventually icd would die like most companies in the electro area and then smart parts can crank up the price of electros to 700 or 1000 or whatever they want since there is no competition or the only competition would cost $4000 for the current equal of a $1000 gun. why you may ask? besides the estimated 75 charge you also got to pay off that million dollar tag to produce it in the first place. so companies who havent will scramble to produce mechanical guns(airgun designs is playing it smart and has been working in the ultra light trigger since the patent revision for just this reason), this wont be difficult for companies like dye and their recent matrix because it was originally designed to be mechanical or electronic but they didnt bother with the mechanical version(which was a good move because the matrix wasnt popular for a long while). then what becomes of companies that cant make the conversion(because the conversion would just end up being the equal to a spyder) to mechanical? they go bankrupt and you lose support of your gun. i dont expect for all the companies that could flop as a result of smart parts will get a community to continue support like with the tribal.

    with that million dollar price tag to produce an electro you will kill most custom shops. people will not be able to make it in the business because they cannot afford the million dollar tag for their innovative design that could potentially change paintball as we know it.

  30. #360
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    Originally posted by Paintball_Foo
    Alright I'm almost done listening to this crap.

    WGP has a patent for a closed bolt marker, becuase they have a patent for a closed bolt marker does that mean everyone else the designs a closed bolt marker to be produced will have to pay a royalty fee or have permission from WGP?... NO!
    WGP recently trademarked the name "autococker". Not exactly a patent for "closed-bolts".
    If he did, it would be wothless since he copied the Palmer Hurricane to make his cocker.

    Plus, your argument is flawed.
    You are saying that nobody should have to pay a royalty fee to WGP because they made an early (not first) closed-bolt semi.
    So, then you are saying that Smart Parts has no legitimate claim to force electro-companies to pay a royalty fee? When, that means you agree with most of the people on this thread.

    So, how do you deal with the fact that Smart Parts is trying to do just that?

    nick

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