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Thread: Smart Parts Patent Will Destroy Paintball! - Read!

  1. #571
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    Originally posted by manike
    I don't try to do that.
    Well then let me apologize for misinterpreting all your posts that seem like that is what you were indeed trying to do.
    Originally posted by manike
    Thank you. So you do at least see the point here. Excellent paragraph I agree with it completely.
    And thank YOU, yes we do agree on much.
    Originally posted by manike
    Nope I agree with you in general.
    Again, see.. there is not as much difference in opinion as was made out to be.
    Originally posted by manike
    I also think consumers have little or no say in what is going to happen now in that this is in the hands of the courts and lawyers and what their actions are, is the most important thing. But you know what? We (as in those of us on the net) have already made a difference in a small way (possibly a VERY big way, but who is to know yet). Some information and prior art that has turned up during these threads and discussions was previously unknown to some parties involved in this. They know about it now and every little helps.
    And AGAIN we agree! Isn’t that amazing?
    Originally posted by manike
    I don't think a boycott will ultimately achieve much here other than letting SP know that some consumers do not like what actions they are taking.
    And…. well, you got it… WE AGREE AGAIN! But I openly state that folks can do what they like.
    Originally posted by manike
    I do think that people should be made aware of what is happening and what might happen. I don't think someone should be preaching that it won't happen just because they don't think it will. I think people should know all the possible outcomes.
    And once again, we agree…..

    But that also includes letting folks know that quite possibly nothing very bad could happen as well. It seems to me that to say only doom and gloom can be spread all over the internet, but that someone who thinks it will NOT be doom and gloom shouldn’t be able to state their opinions is contrary to everything AO has ever stood for. It is saying that the masses can shout at the top of their lungs about the worse case scenario, but someone who does not believe it will happen can’t say so.

    And I for one didn’t “preach” about anything. My voice was one of a vast number of voices, and in fact a MINORITY of voices here. Why are you so concerned? This confuses me. I take a positive outlook on something and I am treated like I should not and that it is a bad thing. This too confuses me.

    If you are truly wanting everyone to know what MAY happen, then don’t get all worked up over someone saying that quite possibly nothing of any significance may happen as well. That is, after all, one of the many possibilities.
    Originally posted by manike
    The power of the net and communication and discussion is not to be taken lightly. We can make a difference, by finding out a little bit more info, or by making more people aware. It all helps. 2 heads are better than one when it comes to searching for information. 1 thousand heads or more are even better... and that's how many people have so far signed the petition. I expect there are many more reading all this that haven't signed but they may still have known a little bit of useful information.
    I agree with this, and I never advocated doing “nothing”… far from it. It seems that the only real difference in our thinking is how this will all end. I believe that if truly wrong, SP will be proven so in court. I believe that the information gathered and presented by consumers will only help the situation. And in fact may indeed put a stop to it. And that in itself would blow the whole “worse case scenarios” out of the water… making who right?
    Originally posted by manike
    I encourage those that are still looking for earlier web posts about electro's or earlier prior art in other fields to continue. Who knows, someone may find the smoking gun (electro? ) that solves the case.
    And I also agree with this.

    Again, we are in agreement in just about every aspect, all but the final result. I have faith in the courts and the paintball community. And I don’t see the industry crumbling over this. And that is what I have maintained all along. Thank you for your post, it clears up a great deal.

  2. #572
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    Originally posted by shartley
    I believe that if truly wrong, SP will be proven so in court.
    I don't have so much faith in the American patent court system, having had to deal with it myself.

    I also don't think OJ was innocent, and yet an American court found him so? See miscarriages of justice do happen! Even when unexpected.(yes I know about the civil case, but I don't believe there is such a thing when it comes to patent law).

    Originally posted by shartley
    I have faith in the courts and the paintball community. And I don’t see the industry crumbling over this.
    I don't share the same faith. Having had to deal with the courts before and knowing more about what is going on in this case than most. I know the industry is worried about this (and some have considered crumbling), having spoken to heads of many/most of the top electro companies involved. I don't think you can say the same thing can you?

    I'm hoping it won't be the worst case scenario, but that won't prove any of us right as such. If I fight my side and it works, does that mean you were correct? or should we just bury our heads and hope what you say is going to turn out to be true? As long as SP don't take control then I win. I don't care about discussions on web forums in comparison to the bigger picture. If we weren't doing what we are who knows there may have been a different outcome. Cause and effect. Chaos theory. It's all unknown until you open the box and find out if the cat is dead or ready to claw your eyeballs out...

  3. #573
    Originally posted by manike
    I don't care about discussions on web forums in comparison to the bigger picture.
    Well said.

  4. #574
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    Originally posted by manike
    I don't have so much faith in the American patent court system, having had to deal with it myself.
    And that is fine.. nothing wrong with you feeling that way.
    Originally posted by manike
    I also don't think OJ was innocent, and yet an American court found him so? See miscarriages of justice do happen! Even when unexpected.(yes I know about the civil case, but I don't believe there is such a thing when it comes to patent law).
    And for every OJ case there are HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of cases that turn out “correct”. My point? You can feel any way you want, but again it comes down to neither being correct or wrong. It is about opinions, nothing more.
    Originally posted by manike
    I don't share the same faith. Having had to deal with the courts before and knowing more about what is going on in this case than most. I know the industry is worried about this (and some have considered crumbling), having spoken to heads of many/most of the top electro companies involved. I don't think you can say the same thing can you?
    Again, you are not wrong in feeling the way you do. But to think, or to insinuate that because you talked to people I have not, and they too think like you do does not prove you are any more correct than I am. Remember, everyone thought the world was flat at one time too. And they could produce plenty of “proof” to support their claims and opinions.

    You have a perspective.. I say again PERSPECTIVE, that I have not participated in. This is true. But again, until it works its way out, no one can say for a fact what is or is not going to happen. Sure, they are worried.. I would be too. But I am not in their position, and honestly, I don’t think you are either. But I could be wrong……
    Originally posted by manike
    I'm hoping it won't be the worst case scenario, but that won't prove any of us right as such. If I fight my side and it works, does that mean you were correct? or should we just bury our heads and hope what you say is going to turn out to be true? As long as SP don't take control then I win. I don't care about discussions on web forums in comparison to the bigger picture. If we weren't doing what we are who knows there may have been a different outcome. Cause and effect. Chaos theory. It's all unknown until you open the box and find out if the cat is dead or ready to claw your eyeballs out...
    There you go again talking about burying heads…. STOP IT! Damn Simon… LOL Didn’t you READ what I wrote? If you did, you would clearly see that we advocate the SAME actions.

    All I am saying is that you can do as we both agree SHOULD be done, and yet not shout about the worse case scenario every time we turn around. The simple truth to the matter is I have more faith than you do.. and that is fine. I believe, honestly, that right will prevail… you have doubts. Fine. But please don’t act like my faith in the system is wrong, or is somehow burying my head in the sand when everything else we have discussed has been in AGREEMENT. LOL

  5. #575
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    It's all unknown until you open the box and find out if the cat is dead or ready to claw your eyeballs out...
    Like Doc said, if SP wins, then the honeymoon is over.

    Alot of paintball designs were not patented early on because the inventors felt it would help paintball grow.

    So, regardless if SP wins or looses, this is probobly just the tip of the iceburg.

    -Nick

    Don't Support Paintball Nazis

    Boycott Smart Parts

  6. #576
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    This may take some following.. who's on first base?

    Originally posted by shartley
    But to think, or to insinuate that because you talked to people I have not, and they too think like you do does not prove you are any more correct than I am.
    Ah so I know things/facts about what is happening that you don't know, but we both just have 'opinions' on things that I know but you don't? Interesting concept.

    You mean you have an opinion on what is happening which doesn't agree with my fact that I know of what is happening.

    Now for you and others who don't know what I know, then yes I can see how you just think we both hold opinions.

    And for some who don't want to take what I am saying as fact because I can't always reveal my sources I can see how you just want it to be my opinion rather than being able to accept it's a fact that you just don't know or don't have the resources to know.

    I try to make my resources known but it isn't easy.

    I know certain facts and know I am correct. If I know that and your opinion is different, then your opinion is no longer just an opinion, but an incorrect one. Get it?

    I'm sorry you don't have all the information I do, and that that's why you are incorrect but that happens sometimes. That's life. Sometimes some one else holds the cards and it makes you wrong. Just because you don't know why you are wrong doesn't make you any less wrong does it?

    Originally posted by shartley
    But I could be wrong……
    You are

    There's more to it than faith. There is knowledge. Call it insider knowledge if you will.

  7. #577
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    Originally posted by jinxed


    Like Doc said, if SP wins, then the honeymoon is over.

    Alot of paintball designs were not patented early on because the inventors felt it would help paintball grow.

    So, regardless if SP wins or looses, this is probobly just the tip of the iceburg.

    -Nick
    This is also very true. Everyone seems to want Paintball to be taken seriously as a sport and an industry, but then act shocked when it is forced to do thing just like every other industry out there. Yes, the Honeymoon may very well be over…. But I know plenty of great marriages.

  8. #578
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    Re: This may take some following.. who's on first base?

    Originally posted by manike


    Ah so I know things/facts about what is happening that you don't know, but we both just have 'opinions' on things that I know but you don't? Interesting concept.

    You mean you have an opinion on what is happening which doesn't agree with my fact that I know of what is happening.

    Now for you and others who don't know what I know, then yes I can see how you just think we both hold opinions.

    And for some who don't want to take what I am saying as fact because I can't always reveal my sources I can see how you just want it to be my opinion rather than being able to accept it's a fact that you just don't know or don't have the resources to know.

    I try to make my resources known but it isn't easy.

    I know certain facts and know I am correct. If I know that and your opinion is different, then your opinion is no longer just an opinion, but an incorrect one. Get it?

    I'm sorry you don't have all the information I do, and that that's why you are incorrect but that happens sometimes. That's life. Sometimes some one else holds the cards and it makes you wrong. Just because you don't know why you are wrong doesn't make you any less wrong does it?



    You are

    There's more to it than faith. There is knowledge. Call it insider knowledge if you will.
    Cute…. Want to sit there and say you know it all, and you have information that no one else has?…. Then enlighten us… PLEASE.

    But unless you do, you are only typing words…. Sorry. And if anyone else did the same thing, you would be all over them for it.

    Again….. if you have FACTS that we don’t know, then POST THEM, or don’t try to claim you do.

    Want to talk about holding the cards? I call……. Let’s see them.

  9. #579
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    Shartley, I will ask you nicely to please back off. This thread is breaking down.

    AGD

  10. #580
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    Originally posted by AGD
    Shartley, I will ask you nicely to please back off. This thread is breaking down.

    AGD
    Okay. I fully understand………… consider it done.

  11. #581
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    OMG, is this true???? http://www.kingmanusa.com/ubb/ultima...;f=13;t=005288

    i've been trying to keep up with reading the posts in this thread, but there r freakin 29 pages.... and although i do enjoy the time i spend browsing through AO.. there r just more important things to be done. so, sorry if this was already posted.

  12. #582
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    Wow, i havent seen any that anywhere on AO. Is this possably a rumor, or actually true.

    AGD or Someone else could you please inform us?
    Im really still in awe over this entire situation,it hasnt hit me yet.
    Everything is just now starting to register...

  13. #583
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    I don't know for certain but find it hard to believe that is true currently.

    People involved in that case have been posting occasional pieces of information and I think if it had been decided then they would be able to say so, especially since that was dated from quite a few days ago now.

    I think there would have been some more official press release if it was true. And actually saying that I don't think it is true because one of the the court dates for the case is due in september... for it to be true ICD would have to have folded early?

    I'm by no means certain at this point though. I might be able to find out tomorrow.

  14. #584
    You guys are all a bounch of idiots who dont know whats going on and either do i. No one knows dammit stop being a bunch of *POOF* and wait for an announcement you can trust. Not the damn WAS president who has data that made their patents broader. Does that mean they are going after all people who come close to breaking into them. Untill we see them in court trying to actually do this or they make a public announcment saying they are you guys are just being *POOF* idiots.

    Welcome to AO. Keep cussing like that and your stay will be short. Feel free to read the rules on cussing
    Last edited by Load SM5; 07-24-2003 at 09:58 PM.
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  15. #585
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    calm down, and yes these people happen to know what they are talking about. After all AGD does own a paintball company and most of these other people happen to be very highly ranked (if you want to call it that) in the industry.

    So, yes some of these people actually have access to more information then we do. But i guess i can see your point

    kind of

  16. #586
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    Originally posted by Paintballer1833
    You guys are all a bounch of gentlemen who dont know whats going on and either do i. No one knows for Pete's sake stop being a bunch of marshmallowss and wait for an announcement you can trust. Not the delightful WAS president who has data that made their patents broader. Does that mean they are going after all people who come close to breaking into them. Untill we see them in court trying to actually do this or they make a public announcment saying they are you guys are just being making beautiful love idiots.
    Thanks for your far reaching insight. You may want to watch your language in future as cussing is not usually allowed here.

    Just because you do not know what is going on does not mean everyone is in the same situation. There is a lot of good and valid information in this thread. It may take a while but it might be worth reading it before adding any more such insightful comments.

    Originally posted by Paintballer1833
    Untill we see them in court trying to actually do this
    NEWS FLASH!

    We already seeing them in court with ICD, and we see them preparing to go to court with WDP... your next point was?

  17. #587
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    ROFL i must say thats pretty funny manike.
    I mean the substitution of words that is.

    Marshemellows? lol

    sorry, sometimes ya just gotta laugh

  18. #588
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    what sort of insect crawled into ur urinary track, layed a bunch of eggs and died?

    u seriously have to chill. no one is FORCING u at gun point to read these posts. If u don't want to see any more of these *POOF* posts, then don't read them, simple as that. do u think ur cool or something because u cursed alot and didn't really say anything. If ur not going to make a contribution to the general knowledge of the people reading this thread, then don't post. I think U should stop being such an a *POOF* idiot and quit with the gay ranting about nothing.

    You too, watch the cussing.
    Last edited by Load SM5; 07-24-2003 at 09:59 PM.

  19. #589
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    Originally posted by manike

    We already seeing them in court with ICD, and we see them preparing to go to court with WDP... your next point was?
    Speaking of reality-

    I noticed a few pages back that it listed previous lawsuits to: WDP, BOA, ICD and ACI-

    I assume SP sued BOA over barrel porting.... (sigh).
    Why did they sue ACI? I though they only made mechanical blowbacks?
    And what are the chances of ICD countersuing SP because the IMP was stolen from the BM2k?

    OMG, is this true????
    I think 4 days ago, a judge decided that the lawsuit could "go to trial", which is a semi-victory for Smart Parts. SO, what you read is probobly a twisted version of that.

    -Nick
    -NE Devil Dogs

  20. #590
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    MY E-MAG HAS A YELLOW ON/OFF BATTERY BLOCKER/PIN



    **POOF*** with your post count you know better. Don't push it or you get a vacation.
    Last edited by AGD; 07-24-2003 at 10:59 PM.
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  21. #591

    wow

    THIS FILLS ME WITH HATE AND RAGE I SHALL BOYCOTT ALL SMART PARTS MANUFACTURED ITEMS AND ANYONE WHO SUPPORTS SMART PARTS SHOULD BE PUBLICALLY FLOGGED IN A COMICAL FASHION AND HIT WITH SHOES LIKE THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ SO LOVE TO DO. FURTHERMORE I THINK THE OWNER OF SMART PARTS SHOULD BE TREATED WITH NO LESS HATRED THAN SADAAM HUSSEIN, BIN LADEN, AND HITLER COMBINED OH YES AND LETS NOT FORGET HO CHI MIHN....IN CONCLUSION I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THIS MESSAGE CAME FROM THE HEART

  22. #592
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    So SP sued ICD and is now going after WDP. Do you know what this means! They are doing exactly what they said they were , we better stop them now before they prove they didn't lie. I don't support SP brodening the patent, but so far they are doing exactly what they said, so why shouldn't we belive them? Lets see what happens and then see if it is a problem.

  23. #593
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    SneakyHacker, I suggest you go read my SP Suit FAQ.

    Just having a "pin" instead of a "switch" won't help. There's FAR more to it than that- genearlly speaking, it can be said SP is trying to patent the very idea of using electricity or electronics to control and fire a paintball gun.

    And again, I agree Drew might have been a little- okay, a LOT- hyperbolic in saying this suit and it's ramifications will "destroy" paintball. Sorry, that's just not possible- even if the sales of new PB guns were outlawed tomorrow, there's still ten million of them out there in players' hands.

    However, that's not to say this suit is "good" or even merely "neutral". SP deliberately rewrote their patent to encompass more than what the original patent covered- which was just their Shocker.

    According to the original Shocker patent, no one would be allowed to make a two-solenoid dump-chamber design. With the expansion, they've gotten away from the idea of patenting just the gun, to patenting the IDEA of the gun- IE, an electronic paintball gun.

    Again, even this is by no means the "end of paintball". However, it can mean- and is virtually guaranteed to, if it passes as SP wants- greatly increased prices pretty mcuh across the board, for all of us.

    Every maker of any electropneumatic, from the Angel on down to the Black dragun, will have to pay SP licensing and royalty fees. These fees could be small and fair, or they could be crushing and usurious. It's no secret that SP is a company out to make money, and they see this suit with great big dollar signs in their eyes.

    If it passes, it will also have the effect of stifling new marker development. Oh, I'm sure a few clever mechanical versions will probably pop up, but the fact of the matter is, it already costs a bloody great fortune to bring a new marker to production, and SP's fees and licenses would add a significant chunk on top of that.

    Long story short- no, it's not going to spell the end of the sport by any means. But that doesn't mean it's a "good" thing either- right off the bat it will very likely bankrupt ICD, which, for that matter, could still happen even if ICD wins!

    Losing- or even severely hurting- any good, respected PB manufacturer is bad for all of us.

    Doc.

  24. #594
    WickedAirSportz Guest
    Manike has weaseled his way into the higher circles with the various manufacturers. And as much as it pains me to say (and you know this pains me), he is absolutely right with everything he has stated.



    I have no idea where the guys on the Kingman forum came up with that crap... that is about as far off base as AGD making the Intimidator.

    I talked to someone who was sitting in the court room while the hearing was going on last Friday. I have the info about as first hand as you can. I supposedly have copies of the entire proceeding being forwarded to me as soon as they have been fully transcribed. These are public records, you just have to pay for the transcribing service and copying service.

    The official statement from Smart Parts was that they are in fact sueing ICD and WDP, and "at the moment", they are not proceeding against any other company. Well, that's a no brainer... they go after ICD first to set precedence, which makes it easy to go after anyone else.
    Last edited by WickedAirSportz; 07-24-2003 at 11:46 PM.

  25. #595
    WickedAirSportz Guest
    And again, I agree Drew might have been a little- okay, a LOT- hyperbolic in saying this suit and it's ramifications will "destroy" paintball.
    Of course it won't... but it definitely got the ball rolling on making people aware of what was going on.

  26. #596
    WickedAirSportz Guest
    1/9/03 147 MEMORANDUM ORDER granting in part, denying in part defts'
    [117-1] second motion for Summary Judgment. The motion is
    granted as to non-infringement of Claim 3 of the '707
    patent and denied as to non-infringement of Claim 1 of the
    '843 patent ; Defts' [132-1] motion for Claims Construction
    is granted and that the matter is hereby referred to Mag.
    Judge Sensenich for a Markman hearing to determine whether
    the language of Claim 1 of the '843 patent supports the
    construction of a single, four-way solenoid valve as an
    embodiment of the element requiring first and second
    electrically operated pneumatic flow distribution
    mechanisms ; The Markman hearing is to determine
    construction of Claim 15 of the '133 patent, as per Judge
    Cindrich's Order entered 10/2/01 directing remand for
    construction of the term "electrically controlling the
    filing of" in Claim 15 of the '133 patent ; the [144-1]
    amended report and recommendation is adopted as the opinion
    of the court. ( signed by Judge Terrence F. McVerry on
    1/9/03 ) CM all parties of record. (tt)
    [Entry date 01/10/03]

  27. #597
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    Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
    I supposedly have copies of the entire proceeding being forwarded to me as soon as they have been fully transcribed.
    Can you legally scan those for us on AO?

    jb

  28. #598
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    As much as I respect Doc Nickel and his work, I get a little chuckle when I read some designs are not patented for the sole reason of "furthering" the sport of paintball.
    It would be more accurate to say those designs don't get patented because of general laziness, ignorance of the possibilities, or lack of vision.
    I also believe any company that suffers from this lawsuit deserves everything they get for not adaquatly protecting themselves.
    I am a Contractor and business owner, and at times have to take certain legal measures to protect myself from the eventuality that I may be a victim of circimstance, no matter how remote the possibility.
    Not protecting your product or services from legal carnivores is a foolish way to run a business. Maybe it is true; the best lesson is learned the hard way.
    Brent Jackson, PFB.
    I don't practice anymore: I'm just good in a natural, vicious sort of way.

    Will you please tell your boobs to quit staring at my eyeballs?

  29. #599
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    I find it funny that you can't cuss on these forums but your able to post pictures of swastika(sp) in an attempt to demean a company for agressive business tactics.
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  30. #600
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    Originally posted by Doc Nickel
    [B]According to the original Shocker patent, no one would be allowed to make a two-solenoid dump-chamber design. With the expansion, they've gotten away from the idea of patenting just the gun, to patenting the IDEA of the gun- IE, an electronic paintball gun.
    Ok. They expanded to the IDEA of using electronics in the marker, which was erlier this year. Now they need to show that there is no prior art. That will be their problem. There has been many electronic markers since 1999. Besides the Shocker, there was the BE RainMaker. There was even an electro upgrade for the Tippy M-98. If SP starts sueing other companys for using electronics in their markers, they will have a hard time convincing the judge that there is no prior art. But from what I am getting from the patents, SP is sueing ICD and WDP for using a solenoid to control the back on forth motion of the bolt and/or hammer.

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