Speed Check/ W.A.S.

[sniper1rfa]

hehehe, i remember when i had my stock mayhem board... Unlimited shot buffer, and it cycled at 8 bps....


I could que up 30 shots and just let it run out, never pulling the trigger at all...


it thought it was stupid. i DID overshoot a couple times cause i fired too fast, and qued up a couple extra shots.



WAS, i like your boards, they are good, work great, and some useful features, i just dont like that you make extra, worthless and sometimes impossible claims.

this board CANNOT make you fire faster. you cant pull the trigger any faster with this board, and he has just stated that you will never que extra shots. So why claim it does that? Why not focus your hype on REAL advantages? its a good product, it will sell without BS attached.

[TransMan]

No he said that it was un likely that you would get a shot queued not that it was not possible. I'm sure that someone some where and some point in time has shot a burst of balls in which they pulled they trigger that fast.

He also just explained to you why his baords shoot faster. its because his bards read inputs of shots WAY faster then the stock boards so it never misses a pull. So if u were missing an extra shot or two because the original baord wasnt picking it up fast enough now you will be shooting faster. Stop just saying that it doesnt work and explain why it doesnt work.

[WickedAirSportz]

this board CANNOT make you fire faster. you cant pull the trigger any faster with this board,

Yes, in fact the board does allow you to shoot faster. Ask any customer that has switched from their SOB to the Equalizer. There is a definite increase in the rate of fire. The SOB is limited to about 16.5 bps before you start experiencing the dry fire (pops) while shooting, due to the eye logic thinking the bolt is actually a ball.

With the Equalzier, the trigger is scanned at 1 million times per second, not 66.6 times per second like the SOB. With the SOB, after a shot is fire, there is a trigger delay period (15ms min) before the trigger is scanned. This means that with a cycle time of about 45ms, if you pulled the trigger just right (cadence) the max rate of fire would be 60ms per shot (16.6bps). This could be a little faster or slower depending on the speed of your pneumatics.

As far as the que goes, there are numerous players that shoot fast that do que shots. If your marker pneumatics are slow (bad o-rings resulting in slow cycle time), you would probably que shots. I que shots myself with a fast setup.

The reason for the que is that you legitimately released and repulled the trigger during the cycling of the pneumatics. By NPPL, PSP, and PanAm rules, one pull = one shot. If the marker was ready to fire it would fire. So what if the marker was not ready? We que the event, and it fire immediately upon completion of the current cycle. The worst case I have ever seen is a delay of about 11ms + ball drop time.

It's one of the advertising features that most won't ever use, but it is part of how we obtain the high rates of fire with our Equalizer boards.

[sniper1rfa]

15 ms? then cycle time. OK, i can see that happening, and i can see a skipped shot once in a while. however, very rarly can i get less than .05 seconds between pulls... ive tried. its usually ~.065
So, i will give you the skipped shots. good job.

[EDIT]: After looking through your posts more carefully, you state that it scans every 15 ms. Now, this would not count the checks during the cycle, due to the lack of a shot buffer (assuming there isnt one). OK, Fine.
However, your making it seems like its an instantaneous scan. This cannot be, as it would limit the rof, and be so unreliable, that the people who wrote the code would have changed it. if you missed the scan, it would skip a shot. PLUS, the switch bounce would make it even harder to get a scan. That would never have made it through product testing, considering you could theoretically get skipped shots even when firing slowly. You could miss a scan just by tapping the trigger (which i do beleive can be done VERY fast, though not multiple times in a row).

I would think that those who wrote the code would make the scan rate as fast as possible. why would they make it anything other than a loop which scans at the rate of the chip? It would be dumb to do it any other way, and i assume that whoever is programming could figure this out, as it is very logical.

so, now the only claim i have read with any merit so far is the eye reading the bolt as a ball. I agree that eye logic is hard to get right.
[EDIT]

Unless you can pull the trigger faster than the cycle time (typically about 45ms), then the que won't happen at all. So, unless you can pull the trigger in excess of 22 bps, you will never have any shot ever qued.

i WONT give you this one. Nobody can pull the trigger that fast. Thats two pulls WITHIN .040 seconds (taking into account that you need the trigger down for the entire switch-debounce period, which i assumed is 5 ms for this. So really, you need to pull 25 bps, with a 5 ms delay on each pull. That means you have to move your finger(s) fully back and fully foward in 35 ms, plus the fact that you need to do it more than once. That is damn near impossible. your fingers just dont move that fast.

oh yeah, out of curiosity, does your cycle time number include the time it takes to load a ball (with a HALO, say...)?

Therefore, your shot buffer cannot be a claim, unless your giving me numbers which are not what you actually use.

[PolishSausage]

I really don't see a point to this thread, other than once again to try to dis-prove WAS's claims. The original intention was to show off the new board, right?

Then why are members in here posting how they don't like WAS, he's a liar, and his claims are false and shouldn't be advertised.

Guess what, ITS HIS COMPANY....
Questions are fine but the line should be drawn at "I hate WAS, he's a liar, blah blah blah..."

[sniper1rfa]

ah, very untrue. I dont think anybody here "hates" WAS. heck, most of the objectors do agree that they are nice boards (as I do). however, he hypes his stoff a little more than he should, and he is accesable, so he is in a good position to be disproved. :-)

Besides, the only way to prove something is to try to disprove it.

[nippinout]

Playing with debounce is scary stuff.

Switch noise is a 'cheaters' way of increasing ROF. The Shocker Turbo's were very scary guns. Imagine an Emag using noise to fire.

Let's hear more about the debounce feature.

[TransMan]

yes im going to agree with Sausage on this one the point of this thread was to find out how man bps that gun was shooting in the vid but no ones even attempted to do that yet.....

[WickedAirSportz]

sniper1rfa,

The trigger input is handled using a hardware level interrupt with the Equalizer. The hardware scans the trigger input pin every 4th clock cycle (4Mhz clock = 1 million times per second). When the interrupt occurs a flag is set and the interrupt vector is processed. The interrupt routine runs asyncronous to everything else. I created a complete multitasking OS for this product. The trigger is debounced when it is RELEASED, not pulled. If you pulled the trigger, it was generally by no accident. A low value pull-up resistor insures that false triggers do not occur due to humidity or debris in the switch that could cause a low amount of continuity.

The switch is scanned the entire time the marker is turned on, and this includes during the time the marker is firing.

It most certainly is possible to pull the trigger 22+ times per second, but only for a few shots, and perhaps between just two shots. This is not very common, and only those with very fast fingers (or a little bit of luck) can actually do it. I que shots about 7% of the time while I am shooting (according to a running total that I built into the test board). However, the best string of consecutive shots I have seen is 4 in a row that were qued. Generally, it is just one shot every 2 to 3 seconds of shooting. I do shoot fast though. I just played the PSP event and I shot 5 cases of paint in 8 games (5 minute max, with no games going the distance).

When you are walking your trigger, sometimes you get a bit out of sync and pull both fingers almost at the same time. It is generally in this case where the queing will occur as you are just releasing the trigger and the 2nd finger is pulling it.

Scanning the trigger all of the time with our hardware can never reduce the rate of fire, only increase it.

[Digger]

Indeed, on my friend's intimidator, he hit 25bps. Consistantly for about 5 seconds (no paint).

I know with the vision impulse with an I Frame, I have outshot halo B's and evoIIs and skipped using perfect gravity feeds.

The WAS board as I understand it, does not actually pull the trigger faster. It gives you credit for shots that you make that were otherwise ignored due to slow pnuematics or programming mrof or even the eye. Its also easier to pull the trigger faster because of the (and this is in the timmy, I dont know about the impulse) microswitch.

[WickedAirSportz]

The WAS board as I understand it, does not actually pull the trigger faster. It gives you credit for shots that you make that were otherwise ignored due to slow pnuematics or programming mrof or even the eye.

There are no credits given! The rate of fire displayed is the actual number of times that the pnuematics cycled in a 1 second interval, not an approximation or average.

[sniper1rfa]

Digger: 25 bps is doubtful, do you honestly realize how fast that is?

WAS: fine, you have made valid points.
so, for debounce, it just ignores the trigger for a debounce period (which is so small it wont matter cause you can move that fast) after it sees a closed switch? works.

oh yeah... what, exactly, is the trigger routine for the SOB board?


and really your not increasing a persons rof, your increasing the gun's, but thats just symantics...

[WickedAirSportz]

The SOB scans the trigger 66.6 times per second when it is not firing. At the end of a firing cycle, it waits one scan interval before checking the trigger. So, cycle time + "delay" value = roughly 60ms when the delay is set to the lowest value (15ms). If you have a fast solenoid, this time could be reduced to about 50ms.

[CRiZO]

lets just all say and admit it together.

"The WAS board is the shizzy."

On a texas storm timmy (has WAS) I was walking it at 18, it's much more responsive feeling than any other electro i've shot. Some of the guys on texas storm were doing 18 as well, but had short bursts over 20. It's entirely possible.

[xmetal2001]

Reductio ad absurdum

That was totally out of context, but it makes me sound smart...

Just like everything else this industry claims, I'll believe it when once I've tried it.

[Miscue]

WAS has a pattern of providing explanations that are contrary to reality... although seemingly plausible until close inspection. I'm far from satisfied with his explanation as to how his board can increase ROF legitimately. How does a "fair" circuit board help you fire faster? A board does not magically improve the interface between a human finger and a microswitch.

He talks about "queueing," and how it gives you shots you should have had, but was not accounted for. Sounds plausible, but I think there is a problem with this... I'll explain why.

I didn't double check WAS's math, but he says that 45ms cycle time of Timmy requires ~22bps for queueing to take place. I had no idea that people could shoot that fast. Like Shartley said... what's the point of queueing then?

Looking at only the electronics... checking the trigger 66 times a second is more than enough to handle 20bps or so on the trigger... although WAS makes it seem as though it is possible to fire in between that window. Yes, it is possible... but this is irrelevant even in worst case situations... and the only way you can fire twice within that window and have one shot unaccounted for is to shoot at 66+. When the trigger is pressed, a flag is raised immediately. (And if not, it was implemented in a stupid way). The CPU is not checking the 'trigger,' it does not matter if the trigger is depressed or not when it is checking... it is checking the raised flag which will not turn off until the CPU gets to it... 66 times a second. Also, you cannot demonstrate a single shot pull in which the gun does not fire because a window of opportunity is missed... that's simply a broken gun.

So, his 66 vs. million/sec check is horse puckey as far as the electronics go... and there is absolutely no reason for a million/sec board to queue shots that would not have been missed anyway by the 66/sec board... unless you can fire beyond 66bps.

I am somewhat aware of the WAS board's "cheater" characteristics... and eye-brow raising BPS. I've never heard of Angels, or other guns shooting in semi like the WAS-Timmy can... unless it's not in semi.

Let's say your fingers are moving in a flurry. How can you tell if it's a 13-15bps flurry... or a 20bps flurry? How can you tell if someone is actually walking the trigger really fast, w/o fumbling? How can you gauge the speed of someone's spastic wrist while fanning? You see a blur of finger movements, you see a blur of shots... that's all you can tell.

I have to wonder if there is a concealed turbo mode of some form, that does not trigger until high bps... and turns it into really high bps. Of course, this would need to be randomized so as to not draw attention with a steady FA cadence. Perhaps the bounce/debounce settings change as BPS goes up? Hell, they got the floating dwell settings don't they...? with increasing velocity as bps rises. This would attribute to high BPS and random shot patterns.

And... when people notice there's something odd about the Timmy's behavior... it can be attributed to QUEUEING!!! "Yes, you were actually shooting that fast but didn't know it!" Queueing... 1MHz board... etc... I have to wonder if this is a disguised explanation for a not-so semi mode.

So... Does anyone have a means to mess with the board settings, and test the gun... accounting for the number of cycles vs. the number of pulls at high ROF?

If Jim Drew could circumvent tourny rules by implementing 'features' that were VERY difficult to check at the tourny... do you think he would?

[WickedAirSportz]

So, his 66 vs. million/sec check is horse puckey as far as the electronics go... and there is absolutely no reason for a million/sec board to queue shots that would not have been missed anyway by the 66/sec board... unless you can fire beyond 66bps.

Wrong...

The SOB checks the trigger at the DELAY period (66.6 times per second maximum) when not firing. Are you going to tell me that checking the trigger every 15ms is same speed as checking every 1 us? 15ms is a LONG time. That is 3 checks in the same period it takes to cycle the marker. It is possible to have to have hold the trigger for at least 14ms before the trigger is finally detected. Also remember that the SOB does not initiate the first trigger check until the delay value (15ms min) has occurred after firing. This limits your rate of fire to about 16.5 bps max when your cycle time is 45ms. With the Equalizer, the trigger is scanned ALL of the time, and is debounced when the input signal is detected.

I welcome anyone to take any Equalizer board and put it on a logic analyzer and fire it electronically. You will find that it is 100% legal.

By the way... I met with the PSP rules committee, and they will have a new machine developed for them that will hard mount a marker and fire it, measuring each shot's velocity and rate of fire. I told the PSP that this was a great idea, and this would end all of the doubt about the legalities of the Equalizer.

they got the floating dwell settings don't they...? with increasing velocity as bps rises

No, we don't have a floating dwell setting. The dwell never changes from the value you set it at. Also, if you were to do some testing, you would find that increasing the dwell does not have any serious effect on the velocity. At 300 fps, using a 12" barrel, the ball is in the barrel for 3.3ms. Increasing your dwell to anything beyond what is necessary to make the valve open is just wasting air.

[Miscue]

Yes, that is what I'm saying!

This is why:

Let's say, you have your chip checks the trigger 66.6 times. Let's say your ROF is approx 22 BPS. Note that 66.6 / 22 is approximately 3.

Not only is it not possible for a 66.6 Hz chip to miss a trigger pull at 22bps... it will check it at least TWICE, and possibly THREE times.

Note the picture. Alternating colors = new trigger pull or new window for CPU to check. And... trigger pulls are 1/3 the size of the cpu window... like previously explained. No matter how you move it around... you are GUARANTEED at least TWO reads (2 CPU windows fully fit into trigger window) from the CPU.

[WickedAirSportz]

Not only is it not possible for a 66.6 Hz chip to miss a trigger pull at 22bps... it will check it at least TWICE, and possibly THREE times.

No... it doesn't work that way.


Let's say the DELAY period for the SOB is 15ms (the fastest possible). Let's say your cycle time is 45ms.

We pull the trigger and 45ms + 15ms (60ms) goes by, and now the trigger can be checked every 15ms. 60ms is not 22bps, it is 16.66 bps.

If we only scanned the trigger 66.6 times per second with the Equalizer, you would be able to tell it was slower over a long period of firiing.

[1stdeadeye]

*Psychic time*

I see another WAS thread going down in flames!

WAS,
Miscue's argument seems sound. How can it miss a shot at 22BPs when it should have been checked 2 to 3 times by the standard board.

BTW, can you guys dumb down your answers for us "technologically impaired" AOers?

[sniper1rfa]

BTW, can you guys dumb down your answers for us "technologically impaired" AOers?

no.



WAS, you never really answered my question. i meant, does the SOB have a shot buffer? a shot buffer being the same as your "shot que". I suspect it does, as just about every gun i have ever fired has one (it prevents skipped shots, which would definately happen). if it does not, then your board is an improvment, because then the trigger wouldnt be checked at all during the fire cycle. however, since nobody is specifically complaining about skipped shots, i doubt this is the case...


Please give me an in depth explanation of how the SOB code works, as you did for your own board. that is, of course, unless you havent actually done any reverse engineering of the board, which i also doubt.

[WickedAirSportz]

Yes, the SOB does have a single shot buffer, however, this causes the marker to misfire (dry fire) because the bolt is thought to be a ball on the way back, so the delay has to be turned up to prevent the misfires. The faster you shoot, the longer the delay has to be. I can cause misfires at anything lower than 40ms when walking the trigger.

[Miscue]

You claim that the SOB misses shots because the CPU isn't fast enough. At higher BPS, there are more opportunities to miss the window by random chance... thus why it is noticeable.

Ok...

Then for the same principles, you should also be able to demonstrate this taking single shots... tapping and releasing trigger similarly as at high ROF. By random chance, equal to the random chance at high ROF, eventually the gun will not fire.

I've never heard of anyone complaining about their Timmy not firing.

The reason being: The boards do not work in the way you claim them to.

[RRfireblade]

Just to shorten the path of this thread a little,A gun with a 16.6bps cap should be fairly easy to improve with an uncapped or higher capped board.It's not terribly difficult to outshoot 16bps on occasion.I don't see how that applies to an Impulse with a cap of 20 bps.If you can fire it at 20 bps stock with no problems how can it possibly be made faster than that if no one can shoot beyond 20 bps manually?
Even with que'd shoots, you'd have to pull beyond 20bps to "store" any shots on the stock board alone.Even if that was possible,NOT,that's Bull crap and SHOULD be illegal!!Since when should you get credit for shooting faster than your gun can cycle? At that rate, why even attach a trigger to the gun in the first place? I'll just mount a trigger to a PC and "store" BPS and then transfer the shots to the marker to deliver than as fast as it can.Or better yet,I better take into account for slower loaders and "store" shoots until the loader can catch up and fire them then.That's alot of crap if you ask me.I guess it pays to be in tight with NPPL rulings huh Mr. Drew. You throw a bunch of seudo tech speak around that's likely beyond the average understanding and your golden.
But back on topic,I'd still like to hear a reason that actully makes sense that shows how a board capped at 20bps can be made faster without queing shots,or is that simply the whole gimmick there too.
My whole point of this thread is this,if you go over to I.O.G. the kids over there are going nuts over this thing because Jim keeps telling them that this board is the reason he shoots so fast.Then he comes over here and states all kinds of examples of him outshooting this and that.It just doesn't seem right to take advantage of a bunch of younger kids.I thought you might TRY to be honest,oh well.
What's sad and should be fairly obvious,is if you simply state the real benifits of the board,better eye etc,and priced it around that of a stock vision,150-160,you'd do just fine.Heck,I might even buy one for that.But to speak out of your butt with erratic facts is just costing you business from the rest of us.I mean really,how long can you hang your hat on the SOB board?It seems like your not even sure of the details yourself.You simply take every question and apply it to the SOB, with the same handful of data you seem to know all ready.
Anyway, I'm sure non of this will effect your sales which seems to be your primary motivation, so good luck,live long and prosper.(without my help)

Jay.

[Digger]

Not being an Intimidator expert, Im gonna do something stupid and join this little argument and see if I can clarify, or at least socratically find out what you kids are talking about.

Originally posted by Miscue
Then for the same principles, you should also be able to demonstrate this taking single shots... tapping and releasing trigger similarly as at high ROF. By random chance, equal to the random chance at high ROF, eventually the gun will not fire.

I dont think you understand this. What Jim is saying is that when you creep your ROF above 16.6bps, the CPU has a "random" chance of not catching a trigger pull. If I were to pull the trigger twice during the 15ms window (right after the last check and right before the next) then it would only fire once for two pulls.

Therefore, the scanning would catch both trigger pulls and fire twice. In this way, the WAS Board does not make you shoot faster, but rather allows you to shoot as fast as you can.

I have a friend with slow fingers. He cant get over 11bps on his angel without a lot of sweat going into it. He's natural around 9.5bps. He picked up an intimidator with WAS Board and a trigger job designed to feel like an Angel, and was hitting...guess what? thats right, 11bps.

Miscue, stop reaching for sour grapes.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Digger
Not being an Intimidator expert, Im gonna do something stupid and join this little argument and see if I can clarify, or at least socratically find out what you kids are talking about.



I dont think you understand this. What Jim is saying is that when you creep your ROF above 16.6bps, the CPU has a "random" chance of not catching a trigger pull. If I were to pull the trigger twice during the 15ms window (right after the last check and right before the next) then it would only fire once for two pulls.

Therefore, the scanning would catch both trigger pulls and fire twice. In this way, the WAS Board does not make you shoot faster, but rather allows you to shoot as fast as you can.

I have a friend with slow fingers. He cant get over 11bps on his angel without a lot of sweat going into it. He's natural around 9.5bps. He picked up an intimidator with WAS Board and a trigger job designed to feel like an Angel, and was hitting...guess what? thats right, 11bps.

Miscue, stop reaching for sour grapes.

I am not a kid, but I will respond anyways…

I am confused….. the scan rate is WAY faster than the cycle rate, but to actually outshoot the scan rate you have to still pull faster than 20bps (as stated by WAS). And since no one can physically pull that fast, how does queue come into play? I argue that since it is impossible to pull at those speeds, queue is a marketing term that is seen on paper, but will never be seen in real life…. thus it does NOT exist it the real world.

His boards may indeed allow a person to pull and shoot as fast as they can, but how it does so does not logically follow the claims. It all hinges on an IF and a CHANCE of hitting an off cycle that is physically less likely than being hit by lightning… or so it would seem. And if it does work like it says, it is making your marker shoot PAST its normal limits….. thus should be illegal for any semi-auto play.

Now, as for your friend who shoots his Angel, and then shoots ANOTHER brand of marker “designed to feel like” his Angel… do you honestly expect anyone to even consider that argument? LOL I know people who routinely shoot different speeds using different markers. And I know some that shoot better on markers that their friends shoot SLOWER on, and vice versa.

The only true test is for an individual to take the EXACT SAME MARKER, put two different boards in them (and NO other modifications) and let them rip. And then you would need multiple tests to form an accurate data base to draw from.

[WickedAirSportz]

It is not impossible to pull the trigger faster than 20bps between two consecutive shots. It is highly unlikely that you could do this several times in a row. In all of my testing over the last 6 months, the best I have ever seen is 4 consecutive shots that were qued. I do pull the trigger fast, and I que shots as much as 7% of the time I am shooting. Someone with a slow marker (slow solenoid or worn o-rings) stands a much better chance of queing an event because of the cycle time being so slow. I have one Intimidator where the cycle time is 59ms. With this marker, the queing occurs much more frequently than my other markers having cycle times in the mid 30ms range.

Scanning the trigger 1 million times per second makes sure you never miss the "window".

The board doesn't make you pull the trigger faster, it responds to the trigger input faster.

As far as queing goes... every manufacturer that has a marker with COPs, ACE, etc. has queing for the ball drop. You pull the trigger, the trigger event is detected, and then the shot is held off until a ball is in the breech. The time period waiting for the ball is somewhere between 100ms and 750ms, depending on the marker.

[Digger]

Not to get back on topic or anything, but what features of the Intimidator WAS Board will carry over to the Impulse, and what features will be unique?

[WickedAirSportz]

Carried over:

Better power supply and solenoid output. Hopper trigger. Programming port. Same logic for eyes (but using reflective technology instead of beam break).

Unique:

Programmable solenoid output voltage. Comes with new eye system.

[Digger]

Can you go into any detail, especially "hopper trigger"?