Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: Tournament Rule Suggestions and Comments

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    2,940

    Lightbulb Tournament Rule Suggestions and Comments

    After the discussion in the thread on cheating , and my linking to the NPPL rules on http://www.paintballrefs.com/nppl_rules_2002.html, I figured I'd download some other rule sets and compare.

    So I downloaded the Xball and tournament rules (in pdf format) from PSP/NPPL. While virtually identical to those discussed in the thread, I notice something absolutely rediculous.

    Sections 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 are all repeated, section 4 is missing, as is the beginning of section 5.

    Seems the rules they handed out at events were correct though. But I wonder how long the erroneous ones were posted on the website? Shows nobody bothered to complainn, or they didn't bother to update.

    Well, hopefully Bill Mills or others reputed to be in on the committee looking at them might chime in on this thread.

    Are the missing sections from the “real” 2003 rules any different from the 2002 NPPL rules on the Paintballrefs website?

    In any case, I’ll make my comments on the rules here.
    1.01. 10 player fields should be at least 200 feet long and 130 feet wide.
    1.02. 5 player fields should be at least 150 feet long and 120 feet wide.
    “10 player” and “5 player” shouldn’t be used. “10 vs. 10 game” and “5 vs. 5 game” would be far more clear and not open to misinterpretation.
    A 5 or 10 player field sounds like there should be 5 or 10 players TOTAL.
    Whatever the designations, they should be defined in a glossary of terms and used consistently throughout the document.
    Better to list general field requirements in on sub-section and requirements for each game format in separate sub-sections. This goes for all cases of differences between formats.
    Field equipment should be listed in the field section.
    OFFICIATING
    2.0 STANDARDS
    Judging requirements, responsibilities, equipment need separate sections.
    2.05. Only clerical and mathematical errors may be corrected after the score has been posted on the score board, but no score may be changed after the beginning of the next round of play.
    Belongs in another section. Part of scoring perhaps.
    2.1 INFORMATION
    Much belongs grouped elsewhere.
    2.11. Home flag stations on fields of play for every game will be determined by coin toss prior to the start of that game.
    Should be in Game or Tournament sequence of events. Not “Information”.
    2.22. In five and ten player games,
    Every time this phrase is used it is meaningless. All rules should be assumed to apply to all game types unless in a section/subsection specific to a particular format.
    2.22. In five and ten player games, when the teams are assembled at their respective flag stations, the Ultimate Judge will give a ten-second warning countdown, as in, “Three, two, one, ten-seconds.” Such countdown will be heard by both teams. Ten-seconds later the Ultimate Judge will announce the start of the game, heard by both teams, by shouting, “Game On”, or “Go, go, go.” The game will begin on that signal.
    As before, there should be a tournament and game sequence of events section. Much of this belongs in the game sequence and split into separate steps.
    Additionally, reading the above you get the impression the countdown is 20 seconds.
    (2.22) Five and ten player games will be scheduled so that there is a minimum of 45 minutes between start of any team’s games.
    Should be a separate rule and organized elsewhere.
    3.06 is HUGE and should be a numbered list.
    3.05 through 3.09 are game rules and definitions. Not Scoring.
    3.09 needs broken up and reorgannised individually.
    The numbering of the document is BIZARRE!
    3.1 TIME AND START
    3.11. A ten player game will end at the earliest of (i) a successful flag hang, (ii) the elimination of all players on the game field, or (iii) 12 minutes after the start of the game.
    The section is about game starting and the first rule is about ENDING.
    3.15, 3.16. 3.17 are in the wrong section.
    3.16. Players are not allowed to bring tools or other prohibited equipment onto the game field. Presence of such equipment may result in a penalty and disciplinary proceedings against the offending players and/or teams.
    Rules with penalties should refer to the description of the penalty. The structure of the document would be much better served. It would also be unnecessary to keep a list of rules that a penalty applies to in the penalty section.
    3.18 is the only rule that actually covers the start of a match.

    I’ll continue later …

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Out looking for the Meani
    Posts
    5,105

    Re: Re: Tournament Rule Suggestions and Comments

    Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


    But if there's no interest, Ill just give up ...
    Honestly?

    I'm so tired of these discussions. Only 'cause they go on forever and never have an effect on the outcome.

    But if you have the energy,go get 'em tiger!
    Logic Paintball Forums
    My A O Feedback Here
    Other Feedback Here
    If I've Been Any help
    Please Leave Some.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    2,940
    Originally posted by RRfireblade
    I'm so tired of these discussions. Only 'cause they go on forever and never have an effect on the outcome.
    And when it comes to arguing about the merits of cheating I agree. Or, about arguing whether something is cheating or not without reading and interpreting the rules. Or, arguing about whether the rules are enforceable or not…

    But if you read the discussion about the rules in the thread on favorite cheats, it turned out to be very civilized and thought provoking.

    One of the promises I made was to have a look at the rules. That is what I am doing here with the idea of putting together my own rule book. While I have no clout or influence in ANY tournament league, I believe that and my profession as technical writer may help.

    To be a serious sport, paintball needs clear and concise rules and effective reffing. I think we as a community could contribute to the rules side of that equation.

    If others care to support or attack my views on the rules as they are, I can better move forward with my revisions. Then I’d host them somewhere to ask for critiques. It may not lead to anything, but it will at least be a contribution.

    I’m going to PM Bill Mills see if he’ll weigh in or at least follow the thread (as I’ve been told he’s on a committee looking at revamping the PSP rules and Xball rules).

    I’m also going to PM Squid, as he has often violently opposed my views in other threads and may be a good resource as a tournament player. There are others on AO whose opinions I respect (although don’t necessarily agree with) that I believe would be additional resources that this (currently my) effort could benefit from.

    I’m starting this, because quite frankly the tournament scene around here just doesn’t interest me. And those tournaments use (and ignore) the same convoluted rule set written in fake legalese (hereto’s, thereof’s, thereon’s, pursuant to’s, and hereof’s) that makes the document uselessly snooty and unclear. And disorganised to the point that it is not easy to see ALL the penalties, all the offenses, or the complete responsibilities of either players or officials without flipping back and forth among many bizarrely numbered subsections. All that without going into many rules seem to contradict each other or have differing interpretations.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Out looking for the Meani
    Posts
    5,105
    Bill's pretty good at watching the forums so He'll likely see it,he's also quite aware of the average players concerns.Like I said,go for it and have fun.

    IMO it's all been discussed to death and usually in vain.



    But if you have the energy,go get 'em tiger!
    At least give me credit for getting your thread started.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    2,940
    Originally posted by RRfireblade
    IMO it's all been discussed to death and usually in vain.
    Actually, I'm not sure I've ever seen the rule book discussed.

  6. #6
    I’m starting this, because quite frankly the tournament scene around here just doesn’t interest me. And those tournaments use (and ignore) the same convoluted rule set written in fake legalese (hereto’s, thereof’s, thereon’s, pursuant to’s, and hereof’s) that makes the document uselessly snooty and unclear. And disorganised to the point that it is not easy to see ALL the penalties, all the offenses, or the complete responsibilities of either players or officials without flipping back and forth among many bizarrely numbered subsections. All that without going into many rules seem to contradict each other or have differing interpretations.

    Bingo. That's the bigger problem here, is that most tournaments, whether they be local affairs, pump tourney's, limited paint, etcetera, all use a modified version of these rules.

    I don't think that this discussion is worthless. With the lack of a true governing body in paintball, all we really have is small committees and public gatherings to decide the rules, and the NPPL rules are the closest thing to an organized rule book that we have.

    Plus, what better place on the internet to do this than AO. We not only have a large and diverse group of people, but manufacturers and other potentially influential people read this board.

    I've been meaning to respond further SlartyBartFast, but haven't had the opportunity today. I promise I'll look into your adjustments later this evening and agree/disagree where I see fit.

  7. #7

    Re: Tournament Rule Suggestions and Comments

    “10 player” and “5 player” shouldn’t be used.
    I know your trying to get the utmost clarity here, but I think your splitting hairs with this one. We use the same denotation in football, soccer, lacrosse, hockey, and some others. If you say "8 man football" people know what your referring towards. I don't think we need to say 8 on 8.

    Better to list general field requirements in on sub-section and requirements for each game format in separate sub-sections.
    I think this is an excellent idea. Have a separate section, most likely at the end of the document to define terms in order to clarify and save space throughout the document.

    I also don't like the fact that the field size for any designated player limit is listed where it is. For instance, if this is for a 5 man pump event, place this information in a designated section that pertains to this event only. This would keep the document more universal, yet still apply specifics in the case of a tournament series to be run amongst multiple fields. You could not only limit it to size, but to bunker specifics, game format information, and scoring structure.

    I don't feel any of this information should be scattered around the document like it is currently structured.


    Every time this phrase is used it is meaningless. All rules should be assumed to apply to all game types unless in a section/subsection specific to a particular format.
    Exactly. That is what I noted above. Keep the universality of the structure high, while allowing organizers to easily tweak information from event to event.

    The numbering of the document is BIZARRE!
    I don't think it is bizzare, as it makes sense to me. Section 3, Subsection 1, Subsection 1 is 3.11. However, you could number it whatever you like. I think what has happened here is that information edited so many times that the original structure has turned into a big monster. The sections aren't organized well enough to remain coherent and the adding on of subsections has only hindered comprehension.


    Rules with penalties should refer to the description of the penalty. The structure of the document would be much better served. It would also be unnecessary to keep a list of rules that a penalty applies to in the penalty section.
    Agreed. We need a whole new penalty section, outlining what each infraction is, level of severity if necessary, and appropriate penalty. If it is a penalty that could take on two forms based on team sizes, list it in something readable:

    Infraction: Wiping
    Penalty: Player eliminated plus one teammate, unless:

    Then list each possible recourse in the order in which they hold precedence. Something simple, readable, and that doesn't require much interpretation.

    I know you've obviously just begun, but the things I want to see completely overhauled.

    1) Elimination Section: Completely scrap and redo. It is way too difficult to accurately determine when a player is eliminated, and what course of action to take if there is suspension of elimination.

    2) Clothing section. Paintball specific clothing is always changing and becoming more borderline. We need stricter guidelines set on size, materials, and construction.

    3) Equipment and Equipment Legality. We need to be more specific on what equipment is legal, and the course of action/penalties for determination. It is no longer adequate to state "pump or semi-automatic only". The equipment has outgrown the current definitions.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •