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Thread: Woman killed by paintball marker tank

  1. #61
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    Originally posted by AGD
    Mounting the valve on a gun which is basically a two foot long lever and then diving into a bunker is an overall bad idea. Only ONE regulator on the market has a fail safe shut off if the reg breaks off. Three letters, starts with A, you can guess the rest.

    AGD
    /me gets up and hugs his 68/45 flatine


    (and yes, i did just hug my tank)
    Proud Member Of The AO Cesspool Since 08-24-2002

  2. #62
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    Originally posted by AGD
    Only ONE regulator on the market has a fail safe shut off if the reg breaks off. Three letters, starts with A, you can guess the rest.

    AGD
    Oooooh!!! So thats what the ball bearing does, huh?

    I had my Flatline apart and I wanted to blast some air out of that hole cause I was cleaning it, I slowly and just barely opened the on/off, there was only about 700psi in the tank and that little ball bearing plugged the hole and only a tiny amount of air flowed through the hole on the sides.

    Tom.. you seriously need to design the next mars lander for NASA, complete with robotic arm that can hold a Mag

  3. #63
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    Originally posted by AGD
    No other industry in the world uses inline threads the way we do because of this very problem. They all use some form of 90 degree fitting. Why we do I will not get into because I have vented enough in other threads today.

    The vent hole in the tank threads is a paintball industry inovation not found elsewhere. There is no standard on it so people just drill them where ever. Some were drilled too close to the oring and caused a weak spot and the valve would just break off. Do you have one of those?
    There are a lot of things that make me nervous in paintball. One reaons I avoid tanks with screw on regs is the failures I KNOW can happen. I've seen the top half of a PE reg unscrew from the bottom half. That leaves you with a 3000 or 4500psi rocket

    I only used a screw in tank last friday becuase I don't have a SS adjustable reg available yet. :-) If you look at what's on my spyder, and my cocker. They both have SS regs.

    I in fact do have a reg with some problems with the vent hole in the valve. The brass valve on my maxflow was severely overtorqued and streached out. I may still have it to show at the next AO meet. That tank is why I didn't have nitro at shatnerball.

    An industry standard tank sealing system would be relitively easy to institute. The necesssary bits are cheap/easy to produce And the hardest bit woudl be convincing mfgs to be willing to make the threaded part on the reg longer.

    I think all paintball valves should have that vent hole.... and the "sealing pin" that the flatline has...

    Think, should be, and is, are all very different.

    The flatline is the model for how n2 tanks should be made.
    To be an AGD supporter, one cannot be an AGD bigot. -Nero

    Truth is a complex thing. One must govern by simplicity. -M. Mercier, special counsel to his Majesty for domestic matters. The Brotherhood of the Wolf

    "You can't outrun Death forever, but you can make the bastard work for it."


  4. #64
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    another reason for me to buy a flat line!

    EDIT: and curley i cant believe even you had the lack of brains to say something like that

  5. #65
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    Originally posted by Dryden
    Yes. I've got 7oz tanks going back 15 years that don't have the blow-off hole in them. The problem though is that this has been pretty standard for about 6 or 7 years now (the other accident mentioned occured 10 years ago). Which means, if the valve didn't have this fail safe, it should not have been in service, since the serviceable life had passed by DOT guidelines.

    I think the field owner could be in for a battle if it's found that he filled a faulty, outdated tank.

    The problem here, I think, isn't an issue with paintball at all - I don't think the game is in ANY danger by this one tragic occurance. The problem lies in the lack of a DOT regulation that allows consumers to purchase and install aftermarket valves and regulators themselves.

    This is something that should only be done by qualified persons.

    ...

    The real issue here is the lack of information available to new players. A warning label wouldn't solve the problem (God knows we don't need any more warning labels either), but clearly new players need some avenue for education.
    Unless the valve was partially unscrewed there is no way for the filler to know if it was defective unless they tried to unscrew it by hand. Even this wouldn't be a good test since you probably won't be able to generate enough force against the remaining pressure.
    A DOT reg won't really do much to solve the problem if you do it yourself.

    Does anybody know the size of tank involved? Tanks under 2" in diameter are exempt from hydro testing.
    Forest Gump of paintball

  6. #66
    It was a 20oz.

    -Calvin
    From a poster at PB Nation:

    ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

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  7. #67
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    The marker was a Kingman Spyder Victor as well.

    Sad story...I feel for them on this one. That airsmith is going to have his *** handed to him for the tank mishap.
    Manager, Ithaca Paintball and Recreation.


    Autorized Smart Parts, WDP, WGP, and AGD dealer.


    If you're looking for markers or gear, drop me a line at Rob@ithacapaintball.com and I'll do the best I can, or visit us online at www.ithacapaintball.com.


  8. #68
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    Originally posted by AGD
    ...Only ONE regulator on the market has a fail safe shut off if the reg breaks off...AGD
    Might be inappropriate to make a funny here but here is a point we do not even bother to sell. And should.

    "The Flatline high pressure air Paintball tank from AGD. Our tanks got balls!"

  9. #69
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    Originally posted by SeeK
    A DOT reg won't really do much to solve the problem if you do it yourself.
    Right. I wasn't trying to suggest that there needs to be new laws passed or DOT regulations - it was more like a stream of consciousness rambling. My feeling though is that there is a problem with the concept of the do-it-yourself reg.

    I think it's a great idea if company X wants to market their Flatline, Max-Flo, or whatever. My concern though is that the valve/reg assembly is available separate from the tank.

    If accidents such as this occur again (and they will, given the level of knowledge of the people I'm seeing in the sport today), then the government will eventually step in.

    The industry needs to tackle this problem before some agency does it for them.

    Frankly, I'm terrified everytime I see these young kids doing self fills from their SCUBA gear.

  10. #70
    First I would like to say that I feel for the family in this time of loss. The Kid must be in hell right now knowing that he killed his own mother. This is very sad and tragic.

    Second, let this be an eye opener to every baller out there. Look out for each other on the field. As you know a full HPA tank is a bomb and has the power to lift a semi off the ground. It will sever limbs, decapitate, or blow through walls. (we had safety tapes that we had to watch in high school shop class that showed the power of a full oxigen tank being both exploded and having a reg sheared off. Having the reg sheared off was amazing, the tank went through a conctete wall that was 1 foot thick.)Now granted our tanks are smaller, but they have more pressure and have alot of stored energy.

    Let this tragidy have a positive effect. teach others about safety and let us not have another tank related injury.

    I am the most anal person in the world when it comes to HPA. I know what it can do and I respect that power.

    Gets off soap box.

  11. #71
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    Not If But When

    If accidents such as this occur again (and they will, given the level of knowledge of the people I'm seeing in the sport today), then the government will eventually step in.

    The industry needs to tackle this problem before some agency does it for them.

    Frankly, I'm terrified everytime I see these young kids doing self fills from their SCUBA gear.
    I am the most anal person in the world when it comes to HPA
    Me to but for over all SAFETY.

    Gets off soap box.
    Get back on and make some room for me

    Players just arent educated or informed enough.

    Dont need to change Gog lenses after close direct hits
    Play with cracked lenses is ok
    Dont need to follow torque specs on regs
    Hair triggers arent dangerous.
    ROF and safety arent related
    ASTM standards dont really mean much
    Industry agreements are made then broken
    Is my Gun disabled and safe when I leave the field?

    Not if the crap will hit the fan but WHEN. Just a matter of time.

  12. #72
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  13. #73
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    Originally posted by Y-Grip
    This could have been prevented if the kid with the marker had dry fired while unscrewing the tank. You don't just unscrew a tank off a marker with all that force inside of the system. At least of you are dry firing at the same time most of the gas will come out the barrel and not out of the ASA. There should have been enough Co2 pressure inside the tank to keep the valve from unscrewing itself.
    This would not have worked in this case, sorry. I take it you have not read about how it actually happned? I have not read all of the posts on AO about it, but have read Glenn Palmer’s post about it. And he goes into how it happened. Also, there is a hole that should prevent this from happening between the tank and the valve, and that was filled with some “gunk” (I think that is what he called it). There were many things that were wrong with this setup and tank. And any one being correct could have prevented this… not simply degassing the marker by shooting it while unscrewing the tank.

  14. #74
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    I think the simpliest fix that people are missing here (other than the correct torque specs), is an On/Off Valve, in leau of the pin valve, or a pin valve with an On/Off ASA.

    The tank valve type On/Off's work like champs, and I have them on every CO2 tank I own. Turn the knob, dry fire the marker until its degassed, disassemble.

    Or, if you gotta use a pin valve (dunno why you would), you can use an On/Off ASA. Every one of them that I have owned/used has had a blowoff hole that opens up when you back the activation knob off enough, which vents the system prior to disassembly.

    This safety debate is great, I am happy to see everyone paying attention to the hazards around us, and discussing ways to reduce the risk.

    I just don't want people to overlook the proven solutions that are already out there.
    Ryan Shanks
    Logic Paintball

  15. #75
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    - shooting the gun while unscewing the CO2 tank from your ASA is for saving your orings. Failing to shoot your gun while unscrewing the tank from the ASA will NOT turn your tank into a deadly rocket. Unscrewing your tank from it's valve will (if the vent hole is plugged).

    - It doesn't matter if it was an on/off valve or a pin valve. If the tank is unscrewed from the valve (which it was), you are going to have the same dangerous problem (if the vent hole is plugged).

    note: most of the time, this "gunk" which plugs up the vent hole is improperly applied locktite. It gets pooled into that spot as the the valve is re-installed back into the tank after an anti-syphon tube is installed.

  16. #76
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    You guys are totally missing the point.

    The the tank unscrewed from the reg was because it was improperly torqued. The safety hole was plugged, so when it was done uscrewing, away it went. The reason that the kid was able to overcome the pressure in the tank, and twist it off the valve was due to the pressure being equal on both sides of the valve. What the fellow above was saying about dry firing the marker, and what I was saying about using On/Offs, greatly reduce the likelyhood of this ever happening, due to their ability to release the pressure in the mark side of the air system. This unbalances the forces on the valve, and allows you to unscrew a tank whos valve is only on hand tight, with no problems.

    The pressure in the tank will keep the valve tight, unless you have some thing that is applying an equal or greater force to the valve to hold it stationary. When the marker is pressurized, its like having the valve in a vise, it provides leverage (in the form of the marker) to screw the tank off the valve. If you bleed the marker side of the air system before you try take anything apart, there is no force there to hold the valve stationary, so the pressure in the tank is applying the greater (by several orders of magnitude) force, and the tank/valve combo unscrews from the ASA.

    Now, does that mean that the tank can never uncrew from the valve? Certainly not, but it does mean that very little force is need to remove the tank when the marker is degassed. If you have a hard time turning it, you know something is wrong, and you can check to see what it is.

    I would suspect that the tank coming off the valve did not feel any different to that fellow, than unscrewing the tank/valve combo from a pressurized ASA, thus he didn't even know anything was wrong until it was WAY too late.

  17. #77
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    I wonder just how tight the valve is stuck in this ASA...


  18. #78
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    fyi

    from:http://www.paintmagazine.com/cgi-bin...8&thread=11406

    Glenn Palmer writes (Posted Wednesday, Feb 25, 2004 @ 08:41 PM)

    Originally posted by GP@PPS


    Just for those waiting to know what I saw during the inspection of the equipment.

    The only thing that I saw wrong with any of the hardware was: There were no signs that the valve had been tightened sufficiently into the tank and there was no sign of chemical bonding materials having been used at the last installation of the valve. However, the Safety vent hole in valve neck was plugged with an unknown substance.

    Another contributing factor was that the anti-siphon tube was installed in such a way as to require that the tank/valve be tightened fully into the ASA to put the tube in the appropriate position.

    IMHO, the hardware itself is not the issue but the handling of it is.

    Apparently, the complete rig was bought off of the internet. As is.

    Sherriff's dept. investigation not yet complete and there has bee no word about who may have done the anti-siphon modifcation.

    That's about all I have on it at this time.

  19. #79
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    Originally posted by CoolHand
    The the tank unscrewed from the reg was because it was improperly torqued.
    That’s correct.

    Originally posted by CoolHand
    The safety hole was plugged, so when it was done unscrewing, away it went.
    As is that.

    Originally posted by CoolHand
    The reason that the kid was able to overcome the pressure in the tank, and twist it off the valve was due to the pressure being equal on both sides of the valve.
    Now, I really don’t know what you’re talking about. Pressure in the bottle has NOTHING to do with whether the valve can be unscrewed or not. The valve assembly (whether it’s an on/off or a pin valve) is screwed into the tank and torqued. If you want to remove a valve assembly from a tank, you’ll find little difference in removing one from a pressurised tank or an empty one. That’s why you make sure the tank is unpressurised (in a controlled safe manner) before doing and work on the valve.

    I think you've misunderstood exactly which piece unscerwed from what. Look at J&C's picture.

    In fact, without removing/unscrewing the valve, and on/off equipped tank could do the same ‘fly-away’ if the equipment is not maintained properly. If the valve is left open and the safety hole in the ASA is blocked, the tank will take-off as soon as the valve is unscrewed from the ASA.

    In some respects that makes a pin valve far safer. To vent pressure you have to push on the pin against tank pressure and the valve will naturally close when the pin is no longer depressed. An on/off can be opened without the tank being on the marker, which would result in an instant rocket.

  20. #80
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    UPDATE...

    From Glenn Palmer, who is helping with the investigation:

    http://www.paintmagazine.com/cgi-bin...8&thread=11406

    Originally posted by GP@PPS on March 25, 2004

    ...I was interviewed again by local channel 13 news people today for a follow-up report (10 pm tonight) on what is being done. Their report is supposedly going out "on the wire" for national broadcast and it is being tied in to the CPSC report that was also published today.

    I think the reporter is doing a good job in getting his info accurate and his focus seems to be in support of the husband of the victim that has been in DC lobbying for federal legislation to impose strick safety controls for our equipment. However, so far it seems that they are not coming down on Paintball equipment in general but trying to establish an awareness to the potential hazards of high pressure tanks.

    Also, from conversation with the reporter, it appears that the young fellow that owned the equipment had in fact been doing some modifications on his own (including the anti-siphon) and not bought the equipment "as-is" over the internet, as he had originally claimed.


  21. #81
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    and based on my local news paper the death toll has increased from 1 to 2 now...

  22. #82
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    What will they do

    And what will the C.P.S.C. say when they find out alot of these e markers dont meet A.S.T.M. Safety standards-ie bad bounce,1 shot 1 pull.

    Anybody know what happened to Lawn Darts{Jarts} back in the 70s and why?

    How come tanks are mounted by the reg and not the tank.Glad to have a Safe FlatLine with a Fail safe if the reg breaks.

    Plastic air line is safer then S.S. I want some

  23. #83
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    Re: What will they do

    Originally posted by Beemer
    Plastic air line is safer then S.S. I want some
    What?!?

    I seriously hope you were being sarcastic.

    One of these days paintball risks being SERIOUSLY regulated.

    Only in paintball are individual users allowed to fill their tanks. With SCUBA or Firefighting SCBA, a trained person does the fill and the fill is done inside and explosion-proof container.

  24. #84
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    Re: Re: What will they do

    Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


    What?!?

    I seriously hope you were being sarcastic.

    One of these days paintball risks being SERIOUSLY regulated.

    Only in paintball are individual users allowed to fill their tanks. With SCUBA or Firefighting SCBA, a trained person does the fill and the fill is done inside and explosion-proof container.
    I have to strongly agree with this statement. I can't tell you how scared I get everytime I go to Skirmish in PA and watch all the little 13 year olds filling thier own tanks, unsupervised! I mean there is this big button that you press and it fills your tank. I know there is probably some regulator that prevents mor than 4000 or so PSI going into your tank, but it still scares me. It is one of the reasons I don't go there very often. I am waitig for a similiar accident like this one to happen there one day, god forbid. There has to be rules regarding the filling of tanks etc. The local scuba shop by me can't believe that paintball fields do "fast" fills. Everytime my tank comes back and its hot because of the fast fill I wait to take it back from the guy who filled it. When he asks me why I am waiting I tell him just in case it is gonna explode, it can do it in his hands. That heat is NOT a good thing.
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  25. #85
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    Re: Re: Re: What will they do

    Originally posted by madmatt151
    I have to strongly agree with this statement. I can't tell you how scared I get everytime I go to Skirmish in PA and watch all the little 13 year olds filling thier own tanks, unsupervised!
    Just look at the enclosures SCBA fills are done in.
    And they fill them slow and cooled by water.

    http://www.americanairworks.com/fill.html

    I mean, paintballers are probably rougher on the equipment, inspect it less, hang the bottle by the regulator, and paintballers stand around doing fast fills right next to the tank!

    If the pros use "fragmentation deflectors" it's because they've experienced a fragmentaion or two too many.

    It's only a matter of time until some kid is turned into chutney while filling their tank.

    At a minimum, the gun should be placed in a stand and the whole thing be covered by an enclosure while the tank is filling.

    Holy !! I just read the whole of the page I linked to:

    IMPORTANT!
    During the last 5 years, approximately ten SCUBA, SCBA and DOT compressed air cylinders have exploded each year. 90% of these cylinders exploded while being refilled. ---- Bill High of PSI, Inc.


    Percentage wise that's not a huge risk. But it IS happening.

    Why ARE paintballers allowed to be so careless?
    Last edited by SlartyBartFast; 03-26-2004 at 05:26 PM.

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