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Thread: ATTN: Tom Kaye! No more Xmags?!?!

  1. #91
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    If AGD puts the same quality and pride in their next marker line, then you know it is going to dominate. Good luck Mr. Kay in your endeavors and crack the whip on those R&D folks.

    crankydan

  2. #92
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    Re: Clearance sale! Everything must go!

    Originally posted by fallout11
    2) The E-mag is an old design, as far as electronic guns go. As Tom says, 4 years old, and quite ready for revision. Who buys a 1999 Intimidator anymore? Dated design, big and clunky.

    Big and clunky? Thats why mags got ULE bodies. So it's a different design. The internals remain the same. Such as the Intimidator.. the ram and every other part are interchangable from a classic timmy and a new timmy, I should know, a buddy of mine replaced every part on his Classic timmy that he ended up with two guns when he was finished, the only hard part to buy is the body. The E-Mag and Timmy are both capped at 20bps and have shot buffering. And what gun still dominates the tournament scene?

    I am pretty sure this gun will remain just about the same but take care of all the gripes people nit pick about, mainly battery pack and lack of .45 frame.

    Everyone is so happy that there will be a new gun from AGD, but am I the only one that read "MAYBE"?!?! Court dates and filing paperwork along with hearings will take more than 1 year, and SP hasn't even set their sights on AGD yet, they're gonna battle AKA first. So 1 year from now the SP issue will still be up in the air and from the sound of it Tom won't make a new electro until it is all over.

  3. #93
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    SP and the climate it produced has stifled innovation? Hogwash I say.

    Don’t confuse modifications or improvements of existing technology as “innovation”.

    Don’t confuse pretty bodies and new milling as “innovation”.

    Take a look what innovation means…

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=innovation

    I think what most folks confuse with “innovation” is “alteration”, “modification”, or “improvement”. Just because a company tags something as innovative or as the latest innovation does not mean that is what it is. More times than not, everyone laughs and says “Hey, that is just like last year’s XYZ but smaller.” or similar comments.

    Or when a company makes an improvement they tag is as an innovation.

    Seriously, when was the last time we saw something truly innovative in the paintball industry? I think NOW you will start to see some innovations.

    Does that mean what has been being sold in the paintball industry was not good? Heck no. But tweaks, cosmetic changes, design alterations, and even improvements hardly qualify as innovations in my book. There have been some original or innovative attempts though, but we tend to have seen them in the smaller brand new companies, not the already established ones…. which includes AGD. It is the hungry ones that have nothing, yet at the same time EVERYTHING, to lose that we see the real work being done IMHO.

    I think AGD has just entered back into this category. True innovations come when you have to fight for your survival, not from when you are simply looking for a few extra bucks. Somehow I now hear AGD’s new theme song as being “Eye of the tiger” (or Lion if you will ).

    And I see this as not stopping with AGD. I predict that we will see this happening all over the place and with many companies.

    I don’t think SP has caused the ruin of the paintball industry, I think they have jumpstarted it again. And what a wonderful time to do so, when the sport’s popularity can truly benefit companies willing to put it on the line.

    Does that mean I agree with everything SP has done? Nope. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t see the benefit that such a cartelist can have on an industry.

    So again, folks can think what they want about “stifling innovation”, but I don’t see it that way… not at all. I see it completely differently.

  4. #94
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    Since when are they discontinuing classic valves? I think it would be a REALLY bad idea to do that... but hey, what do I know...
    Hey Zero, how much did that Chipley cost ya?

    Originally said by Boggerman When I got married I thought it would go down too... The insurance, not the wife.

    FRUITCAT!!

  5. #95
    What would you propose then?

    As I and others have discussed in other threads, there isn't a lot of room in this sport for TRUE innovation. Constant Air, Force Feed Technology, and Electronics were true innovations.

    Those all led principally to one thing; a speed increase. I have very successfully argued that we're at a stage, where mathematically, more speed is not necessary. We can get faster, but it will not gain us anything.

    The place for TRUE innovation lies within the projectile at this point. However, we've also argued that without some serious work, both in design, and consequently in function afterwards, we're not going to improve much on the projectile we now shoot.

    Sure, we can make it more aerodynamic, increasing breaking power, range, and accuracy. That will assuredly come with much slower feed rates. Now we're back to a pump style, accuracy and movement oriented game, where we shoot less paint, but the paint cost more. Is this what the average player wants? The average paint company?

    I will say there is room for modification to all facets of equipment, from marker, to air, safety equipment, to the projectile. I don't believe there is room for TRUE innovation though. Atleast not the kind that will irrevocably change the way the sport is played like the 3 above mentioned have done.

  6. #96
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    Originally posted by Brophog
    What would you propose then?

    As I and others have discussed in other threads, there isn't a lot of room in this sport for TRUE innovation. Constant Air, Force Feed Technology, and Electronics were true innovations.

    Those all led principally to one thing; a speed increase. I have very successfully argued that we're at a stage, where mathematically, more speed is not necessary. We can get faster, but it will not gain us anything.

    The place for TRUE innovation lies within the projectile at this point. However, we've also argued that without some serious work, both in design, and consequently in function afterwards, we're not going to improve much on the projectile we now shoot.

    Sure, we can make it more aerodynamic, increasing breaking power, range, and accuracy. That will assuredly come with much slower feed rates. Now we're back to a pump style, accuracy and movement oriented game, where we shoot less paint, but the paint cost more. Is this what the average player wants? The average paint company?

    I will say there is room for modification to all facets of equipment, from marker, to air, safety equipment, to the projectile. I don't believe there is room for TRUE innovation though. Atleast not the kind that will irrevocably change the way the sport is played like the 3 above mentioned have done.
    Ahhh you hit some very important points.

    And I agree that improvements are very important and there is truly room for them, and indeed a NEED for them.

    But with that said, if indeed we have reached the “end all” for true “innovation” how would SP and the atmosphere they created be able to stifle something that does not exist or can not happen? Folks can’t have it both ways.

    I believe that there CAN be innovation as well as improvement. And I don’t think that having to pay licensing fees to other companies (rightfully by personal opinion or not) is as bad as many think it is. Every other industry not only survives doing this, but flourishes. And it allows improvements to be made as well as true innovations. Of course some folks may think no innovations are left to be made, that is what has been said by some about every step of the way and just before someone comes up with a truly new innovative idea.

  7. #97
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    i am suprised the xmag lasted as long as it did. the phasing out of the emag is not all that shocking either. it is in need of a face lift. while part of me hates to see the emag go, i am really excited to think about whats on the horizon.

  8. #98
    Am I the only one who wonders why not produce the X-mag without body, possibly in conjunction with the Deadlywind or similar aftermarket bodies?

    And how is it that AGDE is a seperate company with seperate ownership of the xmag body (Why can it not be transferred over/who is preventing it?)? It seems like this could've been worked around had Tom wanted to, but that this was a strategic move to ends we cannot see at this time. Could this be a move away from the speedball and tournament scene, in order to focus on scenario players?
    Audentes Fortuna Juvats-Fortune Favors The Bold

    Blue-Gold Minimag Boy

  9. #99
    After reading some of the last posts I realized something. Whoever said SP may have jumpstarted the industry is correct. Companies need new products to get around these lawsuits. And by doing that we get innovations. If someone hadnt patented the originally revvi than somone probably wouldnt have come out with the better faster reloader. If something dies out, some thing new will grow. Look at the surrounding enviroment. You kill off a ton of spiders(not the gun), many more insects come and survive. And that new group of insects is a bad thing. So adopt this to the paintball world and you get a standard shocker or imp, but then you have a bunch of newer better innovations. You stop standard progress, you get newer faster better progress that is good for the industry as a whole.


    Andrew

  10. #100
    I agree that while SP and companies are essentially holding all the cards, they're not by any means creating a monopoly here. I think the whole situation has been dramatized a great deal, as is the case these days.

    Moreover, I think Tom's point isn't so much that SP has locked the system up, but rather, why rush to get a product out until you know how the legal issues will resolve. I think we're going to continue to see the game played competitively with electronic markers, and as such, I see a multitude of designs and companies competing for our business.

    We have to respect the fact though, that we're still in the infancy of this entire patent issue. Of all the electronic markers used competitively, most of them haven't been approached by SP in regards to this patent. We're still a few years away from anyone knowing exactly what is and is not covered under whomevers patents, and consequently who will wind up paying royalties to whom.

    I do think we're starting to get to that breaking point once again where either something changes, or companies lose the ability to separate themselves. It happened in the height of the pump days, and then semi autos came on the scene and jump started things. It happened in the height of the Mag/Cocker wars, and then electronics were introduced.

    I'd be naive to say that it is impossible for something else to occur that would change the sport again, but in all honesty, I don't see that big of a change occuring again. We're not the only industry at this point. In the sports world, we can look at the various facets of motocross. They haven't seen a real technology change in quite some time, yet they are able to keep things "alive" by introducing new ways to use their existing equipment. They've gone beyond racing and expanded that into not only new, imaginitive forms of racing, but also into doing tricks and stunts. By doing so, they segmented their sport into several facets, allowing companies to stay active in the various facets.

    We on the other hand, have been moving the other way. We're still technology driven, and as such, are constantly funneling our sport into narrower field types and formats. This will inevitably create a structure where companies are all vying for the same consumer base, and when technology and style avenues are exhausted, we'll undoubtedly see companies begin to merge or go bankrupt.

    Furthering this, we, at this point, do not contain enough revenue streams to appropriately support our expenditures. All sports rely heavily on outside interests to fund their respective sport. Generally, this comes in promotional rights, gate fees, and media contracts. We're very, very limited at this point in time when it comes to revenue avenues. At this point, by and large, we're supported only by the companies making the products, within the industry itself. When you combine this, with the technology struggles noted earlier, you create further revenue problems, for both large and small companies.

    We've survived so far due to the fact we are unique in the fact we use a consumable product. For several years now, the sport has been driven principally through this one revenue channel. However, as more and more revenue channels close up, we will be more and more dependent on this consumable, and prices will need to be adjusted.

    Its a very fine line. If paint prices need to be adjusted in order to further support other segments of the sport, then it'll lead to a revolution of sorts in how we play and style and function of the sport will change.

  11. #101
    Originally posted by WenULiVeUdiE
    After reading some of the last posts I realized something. Whoever said SP may have jumpstarted the industry is correct. Companies need new products to get around these lawsuits. And by doing that we get innovations. If someone hadnt patented the originally revvi than somone probably wouldnt have come out with the better faster reloader. If something dies out, some thing new will grow. Look at the surrounding enviroment. You kill off a ton of spiders(not the gun), many more insects come and survive. And that new group of insects is a bad thing. So adopt this to the paintball world and you get a standard shocker or imp, but then you have a bunch of newer better innovations. You stop standard progress, you get newer faster better progress that is good for the industry as a whole.
    Andrew
    This is what we talked about in another thread. It is a question of need.

    We got to the point our stick feeds were 3 feet long. So, we invented the hopper. But then, we noticed that the hopper didn't feed correctly, so we invented the agitated hopper. Then, we noticed that due to HPA and electronics, that we could shoot faster than the agitated hopper could feed, so we invented force feed technology.

    Now, in order to innovate, you must NEED something. Throughout paintball, we've seen this not only with hoppers, but with air sources, and cocking systems. 12 grams didn't last long enough; constant air in the form of CO2. CO2 froze up; HPA. Pumps didn't shoot fast enough; autotriggers. Autotriggers made the pumps inaccurage; semi autos. Semi Autos were too slow due to trigger weight; electronic markers.

    The question is, once again, what do you absolutely NEED. Not little modifications, but a real innovation.

  12. #102
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    Brophog –
    Good posts. But also keep in mind that the auto industry has seen many innovations over the years that didn’t come from simple “need”, but “want”, and improving parts to the point that they are at their limits but still wanting MORE…. So you have to innovate. And we now see cars being designed to drive themselves, fly by wire systems, and more.

    So while I agree with much of what you say in both posts above, and you do have great points, I have to disagree that innovation simply comes from a need. Think about it, the hopper innovations didn’t come from a “need” to feed faster, but a WANT to. Which in fact goes against all of the points you made. Those changes were not out of need at all.

    Sure they needed to be made IF the wants were to be met. But the reason for the change was not “need” but indeed simply a WANT.

  13. #103
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    We only really NEED food, water and shelter. We WANT everything else in life

    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    Benjamin Franklin

  14. #104
    Exactly. I think that's just semantics there. Whether you want to call it "want" or "need" its still the point that we made hoppers feed faster because there was a general consensus that speed could be improved and that hopper technology was a culprit.

    We're now at the stage though that, regardless of how you choose to say it, more and more people are agreeing that further speed (20+ bps..) is neither needed nor in some cases wanted.

    With every threshold, it becomes more and more of a burden to maintain that level. You go from hoppers, to ACE systems, to circuit board buffers, all in the name of cranking out a few more balls. When those few balls don't result in further eliminations and increased success, then they become a burden.

    I'm not intending to make this a speed debate, but illustrating the point that techonology thresholds can be met. We're at the point now, where technology isn't separating teams on the podium, but their own abilities and decisions. If marker X played that big of a factor in a team's success, wouldn't it seem logical that they wouldn't be so inclined to jump ship when a new sponsorship came up. Its a bit of an overexaggeration, but markers at the highest levels have become in essence, what shoes are to NBA players. It doesn't matter what shoe you wear, it matters who pays you the most to wear that shoe.

  15. #105
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    Originally posted by Vendetta
    We only really NEED food, water and shelter. We WANT everything else in life
    Too true.

    But what innovation is needed in Paintball? Football, Hockey, Baseball, and most other established sports have been pretty stable for years apart from improvements in safety equipment.

    Why does the technology need to innovate? From an industry perspective, they'd love for markers to throw even more paint I suppose. But from a players perspective we've outpricing much of the market when you look at paint consumption.

    It's probably time for the industry and sport to mature. THere are only so many ways to get a paintball out of the end of a barrel at 300fps.

  16. #106
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    i am not arguing anything, just giving some advice.

    since coming over to ao i have fallen for mags. i learned the simplicity, "teching" them, upgrades, general info, but most importantly of all the support. I posted on 3 different forums before coming here for help. people stepped right up and helped me with my problems no mater how "noob" they were. I still ask for opinions on my upgrades because i know i will get varried as well as very helpful info. this will not make me buy another agd product, but would definatly influence me towards them. i would like to wish agd the best on their new marker as well as their business.
    my feedback
    countdown on devilmag day........ill let you now

  17. #107
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    Originally posted by AGD


    We will work slowly on a new concept that will eliminate the large battery and charger, incorporate the ULT trigger system and completely new electronics. We don't expect to introduce this marker until 2005 if it makes sense to do so.


    AGD
    I am excited ! I'm going to start saving right now ! WOOT !

    Thank you TOM KAYE!
    "Anyone can slap together a high-end electro , where as building a high-end mechanical is truely an art form" - nuclear zombie

  18. #108
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    Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
    wow...I didn't see this coming *gasp*...yeah...as if...you people should have seen this coming a mile away...but you were too busy staring at your little X-Mag's through rose colored goggles..


    -dB
    Werent you once the self proclaimed keeper or stalker of the kitty X-mag?
    Anxiety getting to you lately or are you always went too far with that word. Warning - cphilip?
    Last edited by cphilip; 02-29-2004 at 08:25 PM.
    BEZERKERS
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  19. #109
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    Perhaps I am out of line here... but if I were on the waiting list for an X-mag for over 9 months, and I heard that you were just going to not make any more... I would be inclined to say that AGD is giving the customer "the shaft." I would go so far as to say that unless SP had threatened to sue unless you IMMEDIATELY stopped making the X-mag, I would say that you were being ignorant of your customers' needs, and doing a great disservice to the excellent reputation of your company.

    Most of all, if I had been waiting for an X-mag for 9 months and heard that I would not be getting one simply because you don't want to make them any more, I would be very, very pissed.

    Am I out of line?

  20. #110
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    Originally posted by Vendetta


    2005 is next year.
    I know but ill wait a litle longer till all the bugs and stuff of the new gun get fixed and then ill buy it if it is perfect since the begginin ill get one.

  21. #111
    -=Squid=- Guest
    Originally posted by shartley
    Not everything that happens in the world is caused by SP… contrary to popular belief. So this may or may not be an SP issue.
    But we DO like to pretend it is...

  22. #112
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    Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
    it still doesn't change the fact that people outside of the Cult of AO have been taking side bets on how long AGD was going to last for years now...
    DB you need a brutal *** beating! Not only do you have zero idea of what you are talking about consider for a moment your hateful tone on this board. If I was a mod here I would have bounced you eons ago.....

    AGD will be in this biz as long as IT wants. BTW who is taking side bets? Morons on other message boards that post more than they play?

    I am sorry but in any game the pawn never makes the smartest move, those are reserved for the king and queen.

    When you begin to relize purpose you may then understand the meaning.......

  23. #113
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    Originally posted by wimag


    Werent you once the self proclaimed keeper or stalker of the kitty X-mag?
    Anxiety getting to you lately or are you always a dick?

  24. #114
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    This situation is nauseating ...
    The X-Mag has been my dream gun for some time now, and now that hope is gone.
    I hate Smart Parts, and will never spend a dime on anything connected with their backstabbing company.
    When will the rest of the industry drop a set an combat this threat?
    They are marching through paintball like Hitler through Poland ...
    Mr. Kaye, PLEASE tell me that there is an alternative that Smart Parts can't destroy?
    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Sir Winston Churchill



  25. #115
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    Originally posted by SirTim
    If it's true, I say we boycott everything by SP.
    OH MY GOD, DROP THAT! A few people from internet forums(even a few hundred) can't do jack shiznit. Face it, IF SP sues AGD, it's over. Yall may not like it, but face it. If companies were intelligent(like ICD, DYE, and NPS did), they would sign out of court to give whatever the percentage is to SP to continue making electro markers. Yall may not like it, but face it, the patent was granted so now deal with the FACT that, by the letter of the law, SP invented the electronically fired pb gun(wether they really did or not is a moot point, you don't have to like it, just face it).
    And if you plan on not buying anything SP, you now have to include B2K/BKO's, Matrices, and Intimidators, because those companies were smart enough not to go to court and signed a deal so they can continue production. Since they signed, technically, they are part SP markers, so even if you quit buying Shockers and Impulses, SP still gets money from every Intimidator, Matrix, or ICD electro sold! You lose!
    AKA should settle out of court, so should AGD if the time comes that SP files suit against good ole Tommy. He's a smart guy, he should know when to fight, and when not to.

  26. #116

  27. #117
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    As warped1 said, if and when SP files against AGD, there is really nothing that can be done except to settle outside of court. Of course there is really nothing we can do about it. Boycotting won't do a damn thing. Think about it, the internet forum paintball population isn't even half of all the ballers in the world. I doubt even half have heard of the patent yet. Face it. SP will win either way.

  28. #118
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    The sad part is that they have won without seemingly ever even being challenged.

  29. #119
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    Originally posted by hwayhzrd
    The sad part is that they have won without seemingly ever even being challenged.
    Hey, that's our justice system. You either love it or hate it! It is unfortunate for the small guys.
    But, with TK's ULE Trigger kit, electros really aren't needed as much. Besides, who needs 1000000BPS? If you can't hit your target within 5 balls, try some other activity. Like knitting..............

  30. Three years from now, when Smart Parts has fought the majority of their battles, probably then the average paintballer will START to figure out what's going on, but by then it will be too late.

    As for the whole "starting innovation" thing. I hate to break it to you, but electronics were God's gift to paintball. Nothing will ever be faster, electronics are better than anything else. Sure, AGD will probably come out with an awesome mech gun. No doubt, it will probably be the fastest one ever made. But nevertheless, it will still be mech and therefore it will never be able to go as fast (electrical impulses seem to have the edge in the speed category).

    This attack on paintball will most definately spark innovation, but sometimes this so-called "innovation", though new and original, may still be a step down from what once was. What I consider a step down is lowered speed. What may come of this is a whole new view of paintball. If electros are to fall, who is to say it isn't for the better? It's all perspective. You'll have the majority of paintballers shooting an average of 13-15 BPS with AGD's new mech gun (whatever the decide to call it), and it may return the game to what it once was. It could promote movement, better shot taking, ect.

    I guess the bottom line is paintball will not die from these changes. It will only change, nothing more. It is a great trajedy on many levels that Smart Parts did what they did, but maybe, in some ways, they only introduced control to the market. Now new companies will have to be adventurous, instead of keeping with the tried-and-true electro. You will start seeing "innovation" as the various companies scramble to make faster and faster mech guns. We are, in my belief, at the beginning of a transition. What we are seeing AGD do is what many companies will do soon. AGD has the foresight to know when it's time to pull the plug, so to speak. This time of transition will be a test for whose companies can adapt the quickest to the sudden changes that will be imposed. Some will fight, some will give in, and some will redesign. Those who fight may take a loss so bad that they can no longer keep their company afloat, some may give in but pay fees so high (that, of course, is passed down to the consumer) that no one will buy their products at the high costs, and still others may innovate and wither away as more and more people give in to Smart Part's pro-team driven electro-craze campaign that will most definately errupt when they begin to crush the competition. It seems the only companies who will make it through these times of hardship either have really good lawyers or really good designers, or both.

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