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Thread: Glenn Palmer investigates paintball death

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  1. #1
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    Glenn Palmer investigates paintball death

    Source: http://www.sacpaintball.com/cgi-bin/...823431&start=0



    Since there seems to be a bit of misinformation and mystery floating about with regard to Colete Contois' death and the accident, I hope some of the following information helps clear it up. I have talked to the Contois family, mostly through a mutual friend, this is what I learned:

    The Contois family decided to take their son to play paintball for his 10th birthday party. After a day of paintball at a comercial field, the accident occurred at the end of the day as everyone was preparing to leave. Apparently the boy who's tank malfunctioned was not associated with the birthday party and the family does not know him. He was a walk-on who owned his own equipment and was 15 or 16 (I've heard both). The people attending the birthday party rented their gear from ROA paintball, where they played.

    I have also been in contact with Glenn Palmer, who is helping out with the ASTM safety committee investigation. Here is what he had to say about his inspection of the equipment and sheriff's photos:
    'The only thing that I saw wrong with any of the hardware was: There were no signs that the valve had been tightened sufficiently into the tank and there was no sign of chemical bonding materials having been used at the last installation of the valve. However, the Safety vent hole in valve neck was plugged with an unknown substance.

    Another contributing factor was that the anti-siphon tube was installed in such a way as to require that the tank/valve be tightened fully into the ASA to put the tube in the appropriate position.

    IMHO, the hardware itself is not the issue but the handling of it is.
    Apparently, the complete rig was bought off of the internet. As is.
    Sheriff's dept. investigation not yet complete and there has bee no word about who may have done the anti-siphon modification.

    That's about all I have on it at this time.'

    As you can see ROA did not own the equipment nor sell or install the tank or valve, as many have claimed, as it was purchased from the internet. So please don't call for them to be prosecuted as many here have.

    What exactly will unfold from this incident is still unknown, and only time will tell.


    I don't know how many times I have said that DOT does not recomend loctite and if the valve was properly installed this would not have happened. And if it did happen there is a bleed hole on the valve and the only way the tank could shoot off is if that hole was plugged.

    But I still got "Shoulda used Loctite!! duuhhhuurr!! The hole on the ASA would do nothing to prevent this Duuurrhhuuurrr!!!!"

    Asshats.

    Also quote from Tom:

    Originally posted by AGD


    Lock tight IS NOT suposed to be used on tank threads, they are suposed to be TORQUED on with a special strap wrench.

    Original thread: http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...0&pagenumber=1
    Last edited by Rope a Dope; 02-27-2004 at 12:29 AM.

  2. #2
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    Glenn is superb ppl for investigating this... whoever did the shoddy maintance on this bottle should take a long hard look at them selves...

    and I think we all need to to take a long hard look at buying stuff as is from the internet and not having it checked out by a reputible airsmith

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  3. #3
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    ...asshats...

  4. #4
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    tank

    Whoever set the tank up like that, especially if they are professional servicers of paintball gear, should be held to civil and possibly criminal penalties.
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  5. #5
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    i'll totally disagree with tom here on this, but i guess thats me. However, our arguement is neither here nor there...

    good work glenn....

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    Kevin, maybe it was a little harsh, I guess unless it was truly negligent work with the full intent of it overriding all safety measures done by someone who knew exactly what they were doing should it then be criminal. It was an accident, but imagine how the family must feel and the economic hardships they may be encountering, they deserve to be comped in some fashion and whoever was responsible for the clearly faulty gear should be the one to compensate it.

    And I do think Glen is a standup guy for helping to identify what happened and how to help prevent it from ever happening again.

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    You'll be disagreeing with Tom, who invented things such as HPA for paintball and the entire Department Of Transportation (DOT).

    If ya torque the valve on properly with the proper tools it won't un-screw with human hands, let alone the hands of a kid... I am pretty sure when that Co2 tank came from the factory it was torqued on to the proper foot pounds.

    Plus theses kids need to learn how to connect and disconnect a pin valved tank. Such as not screwing it in ALL the way to the ASA but only a half turn once the pin enguages (although for his anti siphon he had to, another mistake by the installer) and when you disconnect it you give the tank one full turn and shoot out the remaining air.

    Really sad... the kid who owned the tank and the person who installed the tank didn't posses a shred of comon sense, so.. a mother dies in front of her son who will be messed up for the rest of his life since it was at an event for HIM and will be reminded of that every birthday, and as a sport, paintball will have to start all over in getting it's good rep as being a safe sport.

  8. #8
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    My friend and I saw the pics of the tanks' anti-syphon on the news and discussed the matter. We thought it looked like a ghetto home job and the kid obviously screwed the tank on with insufficient force.

    The kid also must have not been paying attention when the entire tank began unthreading from the valve. You can't really blame it on the kid, but he should've been paying a little closer attention.

    The local news last night said that there was another case in June 03 up in washington. A 17 year old kid was degassing his gun and the CO2 tank shot off and cracked him between the eyes. He died 5 days later in the hospital.

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    Rope, I think you are getting CO2 and HPA tanks confused. Everything I ever read and or seen, you use blue lock-tite on CO2 tanks. This is also even the case with some HPA screw-ins. The idea is you do not use a lot.

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by Muzikman
    Rope, I think you are getting CO2 and HPA tanks confused. Everything I ever read and or seen, you use blue lock-tite on CO2 tanks. This is also even the case with some HPA screw-ins. The idea is you do not use a lot.
    No, I know the difference. I work at a paintball shop and I'm versed in the DOT regulations because if something bad happens I wanna cover my caboose by proving I followed DOT procedure. You do NOT put loctite on Co2 tanks.

    Putting a tiny bit won't harm anything, if you torgue the valve on correctly you don't need any, I guess if you don't have the proper tools then loctite would be somewhat safer...

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by Rope a Dope
    I guess if you don't have the proper tools then loctite would be somewhat safer...
    I say if you don't have the proper tools, you shouldn't be working on pressure vessels at all.

  12. #12
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    I use a little loctite ABOVE the safety bleed hole thing. I also tighten my tank into the ASA all the way, otherwise they shift around too much.

  13. #13
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    There is a difference between loc-titing an HPA tank and loc-titing a CO2 tank. Co2 tanks are supposed to be loc-tited, and I believe the reason is because they are not under as high of a pressure as HPA.

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    BTW, the reason you are not supposed to use loctite is that it can damage the threads when the valve is removed. This can cause the tank to fail a visual inspection. Or worse, fail a hydro. I guess if you never remove the valve, loctite won't hurt.


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  15. #15
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    here is what you guys are missing

    These kids were tech'ing RENTALS! its not like they were working on thier own guns. Renters should never take the rental gear apart, that service is part of the rental fee they pay when walking in the door!

  16. #16
    About 9000 people die a year from Food Poisoning... Lets ban food.
    Official Member # 10,261 and so is George

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    About 9000 people die a year from Food Poisoning... Lets ban food.
    I like your logic, but logic doesn't matter. For an example, look how popular gun control is.

  18. #18
    totally. If this incident gets momentum, we could lose our paintball "markers" We all need to be a lot better with everything for awhile, so we dont get that momentum. This means, if you see someone, or hear of someone shooting signs, or houses... Just smack them. Dont make them bleed or anything, but get them real close to blood. We want our sport to stay alive, so lets be good guys.

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    food

    Not an entirely bad analogy using food though it's a neccessity and PBall isn't, and here's where my point comes in: Food is fine, but if restaurants use poor preparation including health violations, they can be fined, put out of business, and, if what they did is grossly negligent (think clam chowder in Fight Club) charged criminally. Nothing grossly negligent happened here, but it is still a case of negligence and both the player who was teching the gear without permission and the field who provided gear that could pose a safety risk could be held liable very easily.

    Did you know even if you have a sign saying "wet floor" in a supermarket, if someone slips because they were still able to be exposed to the area, like walk past the sign still, they are entitled to win a civil suit? Legal Studies in college related to business administration, it's all legit.

  20. #20
    Glen Palmer stated in a different thread the loc-tite IS NOT REQUIRED on threads - it is suggested but the proper torque value is what is REQUIRED.

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    Originally posted by cledford
    Glen Palmer stated in a different thread the loc-tite IS NOT REQUIRED on threads - it is suggested but the proper torque value is what is REQUIRED.

    -Calvin
    Tom Kaye said the same thing.

    This was said about Co2 tanks.

    I'll believe the two of them plus what the DOT manual says before any of you, no offense, lol

  22. #22
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    He was a walk-on who owned his own equipment
    Some of you guys missed this part in the first thread. No one was working on rental gear.

    The gun is 1/8" of a game that is a FOOT long!
    (...but a 'mag helps)
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  23. #23
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    Originally posted by Rope a Dope


    Tom Kaye said the same thing.

    This was said about Co2 tanks.

    I'll believe the two of them plus what the DOT manual says before any of you, no offense, lol
    rope,

    I'm looking at my notes from my PTI (Paintball Training Insitute) classes. It is telling me to loctite all screw in bottles. Why? When they get stuck and people start unscrewing them, they can start unscrewing the bottle without knowing it. 25 ft-lbs of torque (what you are supposed to use, also told to me by PTI) is easy to overcome when you stick the marker inbetween your legs and start tugging on the bottle.

    if there is accuracy in what tom says...which im not totally sure of...then there is a HUGE problem in the paintball industry. as EVERY tank comes now from the manu loctited. Its just how they do it.

  24. #24
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    Originally posted by gtrsi
    here is what you guys are missing

    These kids were tech'ing RENTALS! its not like they were working on thier own guns. Renters should never take the rental gear apart, that service is part of the rental fee they pay when walking in the door!
    dude, did u read the first post.

    Apparently the boy who's tank malfunctioned was not associated with the birthday party and the family does not know him. He was a walk-on who owned his own equipment and was 15 or 16.
    i've noticed at some fields around me they don't check dates or give the tank any inspection other than a very brief look at. this kinda thing needs full sport support. please look at ur tank. if u see a new person playing with rental equipment, tell them to stop. if u don't know what ur doing, ask a tech. also, i don't know if any1 else does this but if i buy a tank ofline from a company other than the maker or a person, i send the tank in for testing. i'd rather not risk it. please every1 try and be responsible. ever1 keeps saying "oh now pball is going to have a bad rep" WE ARE THE ONES WHO GIVE IT A GOOD REP! if we show that we are responsible with our own gear and keeping everything good conditions with the proper rules, regulations, and controls pball will get rid of it's "bad rep".

  25. #25
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    Originally posted by Kevmaster
    I'm looking at my notes from my PTI (Paintball Training Insitute) classes. It is telling me to loctite all screw in bottles. Why? When they get stuck and people start unscrewing them, they can start unscrewing the bottle without knowing it. 25 ft-lbs of torque (what you are supposed to use, also told to me by PTI) is easy to overcome when you stick the marker inbetween your legs and start tugging on the bottle.
    The reason you are not supposed to use loctite is because it can damage the threads in the bottle when the valve is removed. The paintball industry wants the valves loctited to avoid the bottle unscrewing from the valve.

  26. #26
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    Originally posted by tribalman

    dude, did u read the first post.

    I have but everyone single account I have read except this one had said that the tank had struck the victim was from a rental..

  27. #27
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    Loctite on tank threads? My grandparents have owned a scuba shop for over 40 years(since early 60's). Ask my gramps what he thinks about loctite. I could quote it but then Id get banned.. to say the least he thinks "its stupid".

    I wholeheartedly agree: If you dont have the right tools you shouldnt even think about it.
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    Good to know that somone of Tom's status seeks "relief" from a sport he helped create. A sport now ruled by a single patent.

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    And that proves to all you morons who called me stupid for saying you don't need Loctite on your Tank Reg, and there Tom and Glenn Palmer agree with me.

  29. #29
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    Originally posted by Dubstar112
    Loctite on tank threads? My grandparents have owned a scuba shop for over 40 years(since early 60's). Ask my gramps what he thinks about loctite. I could quote it but then Id get banned.. to say the least he thinks "its stupid".

    I wholeheartedly agree: If you dont have the right tools you shouldnt even think about it.
    theres a huge difference in scuba tanks and Co2 tanks.
    1) co2 tanks hold 800psi or so, scuba, over 2000. The force holding the valve on is much greater

    2) a scuba tank is not screwed into anything as a co2 tank is screwed into the asa. if its really in there (as it often is) you have to use a lot of force on the bottle to get it out. If its not loctited, it is VERY easy to begin to unscrwe the bottle from the valve, rather than the bottle and valve from the asa

    I think there needs to be some MAJOR consensus from the industry on this. I don't claim to the the prophet of Co2 tanks, BUT i have been taught by the supposed industry leaders and the ones who supposedly know the most. Tim Arnold, Bob McGuire and Budd Orr are three of the smartest paintball guys you'll meet. They know their ****, theres no two ways around it. Tom also is in that league. The fact that they differ is what scares me.

  30. #30
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    Originally posted by hitech
    The reason you are not supposed to use loctite is because it can damage the threads in the bottle when the valve is removed. The paintball industry wants the valves loctited to avoid the bottle unscrewing from the valve.
    I know it can damage the threads, but how often is a tank reg removed? Rarely. And if you use blue loctite, it shouldn't damage the threads at all

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