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Thread: Airgun's worst decesion in a long time

  1. #31
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    Thanks Tom! I am a mag user, end of line. I have seen many "quality" things in my life disappear. What you, and we, have here is exceptional and worth protecting, not alway easy, not always perfect.

    m2c

    Rio Oso

  2. #32
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    i want to come out here and say this...and i know some people will say it has nothing to do with this topic..but i beg to differ..i used to be a 100% auto****** guy...and they always fixed my gun when i sent it in..no problems..but see..if i had to send my gun back to the manufacturer everytime i had a problem (because the airsmiths around her suck) i would just get bored out of my mind and never get to play...that's why i traded my auto****** for a mag..it works fine..i don't have to screw with it and hey..i've got 4 stars on it..if i want to send it in and get rebuilt..i've got the option of doing it 4 times..i'm probably going to send it in soon since i've used it perfectly fine for a couple of days playing..but i don't know what the kid before me did to it..and hey..by the time i send it in the nickel intelli's might be out...and what does this mean to all of you out there..? some people may say nothing...but i'll tell you something..i've been around paintball for a long time...and nobody builds a marker like AirGun..and the fact that Tom can whip everybody up about new products that you may not see forever like the New Quasi-Delrin Bolt, and a Valve that doesn't chop shows that you guys are passionate about your markers..and even if this passion may piss Tom off sometimes..i'm sure he takes a little pride in the fact that people really love AirGun and their mags...

  3. #33
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    I support AGD fully. I'm sure Toms decision was the right one. Why would he let go his senior tech without substantial reason? I dont know the first thing about business and I'm sure 75% of the others dont as well. Dont try to criticize a company for trying to stay competetive and doing what is best for it. Business decisions are best left to the top people and in this case they were.
    Brass Eagle really really sucks!

  4. #34
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    Re: Part time?

    Originally posted by Grendel


    How was AGD's Senior Tech a "part time" worker? How did he have a "very flexible" schedule? Why are you making things up? According to this board, Jeff worked at Airgun 8 years.

    Quote from Tom Kaye

    "He has to leave 6 times a year to play tournaments. When he does, repair guns and final testing of Emags gets backed up for weeks and puts a major strain on the company. We would have had to tell him that he couldn't go to tournaments anymore and he wouldn't be able to do that so this was our only choice. "

    During a recession people like this get laid off first. I am sure hes going to find a job in the industry again, but this is a REALLY lame post. Lock the thread.

  5. #35
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    We have already been through this. This is a personnel matter between Jeff and Tom. You already have a thread for this matter. Tom left it open for you. I feel Tom gave you all an explanation. More than he had to give. Closing this thread as it is a duplicate. Go to the other one as Tom requested.


    AGD, where we are so good we can do it with only ONE tube!

    cphilip.com

  6. #36
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    Exclamation Hmmm...

    Some of the people need to realize what a business is like to run, and understand that Tom most likley the best to his abilities to keep things working. I think some of the people here are walking over Tom and telling him how to run AGD, which im sure he has a better understanding of what is really going on.... :o
    AO #765
    CCM Series 5
    Prerelease Impulse
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    Feedback.


    Good to know that somone of Tom's status seeks "relief" from a sport he helped create. A sport now ruled by a single patent.

  7. #37
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    Re: closed thread

    Originally posted by John Dresser
    I'm glad you didn't close the last thread. Hopefully an overzealous moderator won't close this one.
    I closed it and its obvious why as I clearly commented on that before I did so. I closed it openly and for clearly explained reasons. It was not done secretely or for censorship. It was done for reasons of privacy between and employer and employee.

    Here is what I said on that thread: Am I the only one that thinks we should not be discussing AGD's Personnel situations here? Tom was open enough to give you an explaination even though he didn't have to. Now let's keep it a private matter for the both of them.

    Case closed.



    And I would do it again, for the same reasons, if Tom hadn't already overruled that.

    Overzealous? That seems to apply to you John, rather than me. I still feel that this is not a matter that should be discussed outside of the employee and employer. But see what happened even after Tom reopened this one? Another one was started. So I had to close it for duplicity. I rest my case. I think it's none of your or my business. Period.
    Last edited by cphilip; 09-25-2001 at 06:55 AM.

  8. #38
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    Last time I checked, we are all here for one main reason, we all want or are lucky enough to own an automag in some way. Some of us had them and had gotten rid of them, some are spending every penny to put one together from scratch.

    Tom Kaye, created a marker like no other. We have all seen the spyder mocks, which are al the same design as the impy/bushy/EM1. Where is there a copy of a mag? there isnt. Each one of these markers is a quality assured 100% backed mid/high level marker.

    I understand Tom's perspective on this decision, and respect it. If you don't respect it, thats fine, but dont flame someone who does.

    I have used AGD guns since their introduction. I have played through the runodwn issues, the liquid problems, I have strayed as wel, trying other markers like cockers, electros, and an angel. What did I buy? another mag. I am the proud owner of RTP00440, and I am always complimented on its accuracy and consistency. I know about the problems of the RT with consistent velocity, but I overcame that. At the field, everyone knows not to bother with my RT for fps.

    If you don't like some of his ideas, such as the ZGrip, why are they such a hot item right now? Now that they have been discontinued, everybody wants to get their hands on them. As far as the 2x trigger issue. I personally shoot just as fast with a 1x. If you look at my RT, you will see a totally stock RT. stock gripframe and all. If you dont like the heavy foregrip take it off. I experimented with that myself. The foregrip is heavy to counter the weight of the valve. I will tell you this. after a tourney day, with the foregrip, I was fine, when I took it off my arm hurt a bit because it was always countering the weight of the valve. People should tkae those thins into consideration before the flame about heavy foregrips. as far as the emag...what can I say, the gun is perfect, the battery is awkward, but it needs to be there. I have seen it replaced with the RT foregrip, and the battery instlled on the tank. Thats a rig job waiting to go wrong.

    Tom, as the owner of a company that has prospered over the last 10 years, did what he had to do. What about all of the companies that offered the "HOTT" new marker...GONE...where's that NOVA?huh? what about those tribals that were the hottest things? GONE. Where's AGD? Still kickin'. What about that cocker? try matching a stock cocker to a stock mag...theres a reason why 30 companies make a version...WGP cant make it on their own. What about a stock mag? I love mine. I use it for recball and scenarios. Just think about where YOU could be if tom made poor judgement calls, maybe AGD could have been that Tribal that is history.

    well i'm done...sorry so long winded...

    just my $.02
    Custom milled ULE bodied E-Mag
    DEMONIC Freeflow Cocker No. 4 of 13 My Feedback

  9. #39
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    DarkPhoenix
    You hit the nail on the head.

    Until you are the owner of AGD, you don't have all the information needed to make the hard/important decisions. Decisions like this one would have had more had more variables influencing it then what we could speculate. I'm sure it was a very tough decision for AGD.

    Jeff, I'm sure you will be missed, both at AGD, and by your customers.

  10. #40
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    Jeff

    Originally posted by AGD


    The most important thing in AGD is NOT me, the managers or the staff, it's the customers. Right or wrong I try to make decisions that will ultimately benefit them. This forum and the 2000 people that come here every day are evidence of that.

    If I didn't listen to Jeff it's because I didn't believe the idea had a basis in fact.

    If his friends wedding doesn't conflict he will be teching at the Masters. If he wants to setup shop Shrieberizing guns we will support him in that endeavor, it's up to him.

    Right now there is a recession going on and for most of you this is a new experience.

    AGD
    I'm trying to point out what a service Jeff was to "his" customers. If you owned a Mag, Jeff went to bat for you no matter if he ws on the clock or not. You keep critisizing him for leaving when thats actually when he brought in new business. Giving up that kind of loyalty should put you on the hot seat. You should have to defend yourself.

    It is obvious you didn't listen to Jeff when what he was telling you was based on fact. Half of his pro team - Farside plays with the best working mags on the circuit. Most aren't even E-Mags. Ask Jax Warriors - they would love to go back to RT's if they just worked that well. You can't imply that Jeff was a snake oil salesman when he cut down those bulky mags and made the best shooting mags out there. That is a a cheap flame Tom. The proof is right there. Shoot one of their guns and you'd see. Ask Renick Miller or PGP.

    I hope you do work everything out with Jeff. I hope you do get Jeff another job in the paintball industry. I hope you make sure AGD gets Jeff everything you own him in a timely manner. I know how many people bought your products because they associated Jeff with AGD. You should live up to your side of the bargain.

    If Jeff was really let go on the 11th of September and it was a long decesion due to the recession like you said it was, how did you get advance notice on the plane strikes? You can't say that firing Jeff was based on events that happened that morning.

    Sorry about the post to Tuna Man and Tom last night. That was my room mate. Not that it wasn't true.

    Infamous G

  11. #41
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    I dont want to sound unfriendly, but I really dont care at all what happens at AGD. And I doubt I'm the only one. I trust Tom to make the right decisions that will lead to the best product for me if and when I decide to buy another mag.
    I'm sure their are openings in the industry for whoeevr this guy is. Imagine being laid off with 60,000 other people with specialized tech skills from the airlines.

  12. #42
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    Making Tom feel like Crap!

    Just thought i'd title this post the same as what this thread has turned into.

    It's life....**** happens....get over it!

    Tom owns AGD and none of us do. Now until i win the lottery and buy him out, you all have to deal with what he does.

    Peace at AGD & AO!!!!!

  13. #43
    ben_JD Guest
    Who is Jeff?

    I have owned my Automag for 9 years (same one) and no one person persuaded me to buy it; the product sold itself. Good luck to all those who lose their jobs in this current economy.

  14. #44
    Why dosent everyone just let Jeff talk for jeff....I have never heard of him and bought my Mini and E-Mag cause I felt that they were the best products on the market. I think its noble that AGD and Tom have come on here and spoke about company problems openly. I've never seen anything like it before, but come on people. This is none of our business. Lets be adults and let them work it out.

  15. #45
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    Unhappy Business

    My comment to this is pretty much the same as the others who support AGD's in their decision: It's their business, and only they know what can be done to protect it. Yeah, Tom gives great products and great customer service, but all must remember this: he does it to make a living. His business and family (not in that particular order) should come first and any decisions made should be in his/their best interests. I don't see how anyone can not respect him for that.

    Will customer service change? Maybe. Will the product change? Possibly. Will AGD do the most they possibly can to make all of us happy mag owners and to ensure we have great working products? Absolutely.

    Tom, please don't see this as me speaking for you...I understand that: 1) You own us no explanation as to how you run your business, 2) You need to make desicions that will benefit yourself, your family, and your company, and 3)You are sharing your views of the situaion voluntarily with no obligation in doing so.

    Sounds like Jeff (and I don't know Jeff) partly made this desicion by making his tournament life more important than work...which is OK by all means. But look at the whole picture and think of what you would do if you were in AGD's shoes...

    Just my 3 cents.

    -- StevoC

  16. #46
    agdjon Guest
    For most of you who don't know me, my name is Jon and I am one of the Factory Techs here at Airgun Designs. Ok I need to put in 2 more cents to this thread. All of you (well most of you) talk like Jeff is Airgun Designs. Jeff definitely was an asset to the company but remember, Airgun Designs is mostly the customers. Sure Tom may have started the company but without you guys, Airgun Designs would not exist. And you all talk (or so it may seem that way) that Jeff is the only tech here and is also the only one who works on his own time at event. This is not true, Tom Vale, who used to be the senior tech but is now Quality Assurance, also goes to events on his free time during the weekends helping anyone he can. I also do the same during CPSA events last year and now when I go Rec-Balling. If you are going to start bashing me saying "but you never been to a NPPL event" you are wrong. I played a couple of NPPL events but that goes back to 95 when I was on Team Fox (even though I was not a tech but I always helped others if I knew what to do). And BTW, there are TRUE AIRGUN DESIGNS satellite techs who knows just as much as we do at the factory. Techs like Kayle M, Rod D, Rob H, Brad N, and Ron F are all very knowledgable and treat customers the same way Jeff or anyone who has worked at AGD when they are at events. The reason for this is because we pride ourselves on customer service. Ask anyone out there. Ask the people whose markers I have worked on. Heck even ask those who I have driven out to just to help them out. I remember I had a practice sometime last year and I told the guy whose marker was down that I would be there. Practice ended up being cancelled but I showed up anyway because I keep my promises. I know that if I were to help this guy out it would come back to the company 2 fold because of the word of mouth he would spread about us.

    I like Jeff and I hate seeing him leave but Tom has to make decisions for the company. Jeff and I hung out every once in a while. We had fun talks, drank beers, all the good stuff. It may have sucked that 3 people had to leave but there is nothing you, me, or anyone out there (unless someone donated several million dollars to us )can do about it and it does suck. The recession has hit everyone hard. It just became worse when we were attacked.

    OK I seem to be digressing and thanks for reading.

    BTW Please stop the bashing. It is not going to change the past and it certainly cannot help the future.

  17. #47
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    Well said Jon. I for one cannot tell you how many times Jon has helped me out. And he has even helped out others at my request. And I see Kayle on here a lot too. Spoken to him a few times myself. No man is a island you see?

    Also notice all the great customer service from the front office, JoAnn, and now the new gal Marcia coming on line here and getting involved.

    I don't know all the others names from behind the scenes they all do the great customer service thing for us. It's contagious once caught.

    And itís still a personnel matter, which we must and should respect. Youíre getting way more insight than you are entitled too.

  18. #48
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    Originally posted by Grendel


    You can't imply that Jeff was a snake oil salesman when he cut down those bulky mags and made the best shooting mags out there. That is a a cheap flame Tom.

    Infamous G
    What are you smoking? Sorry mods, had to say that.

    Read Tom's post again, he never called or even remotely implied that Jeff was a 'snake oil salesman'. He was referring to the fact that you directly pointed to Tom's decisions, that you believed to be the cause of the downturn in AGD's business. Tom responded by saying that if he was not a 'snake oil salesman', like some of the other business owners in the industry; who simply provide whatever the customers demand, without a thought to if it actually benefits them - for the reasons of PROFIT alone - then he wouldn't be in the current position he is in.

    He never once referred to Jeff as being a 'snake oil salesman'. Before you keep jumping to conclusions, read what's written. Listen to both sides. Most of all, leave this between Jeff and Tom.
    Last edited by cphilip; 09-25-2001 at 12:18 PM.

  19. #49
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    Heh, will jeff ever join AO?

  20. #50
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    Angry Ugh...

    This really upsets me. AIRGUN DESIGNS IS A PRIVATE BUSSINESS. Pleeeeaaaaaasssssee, let tom do what he feels is best for his company, and don't criticise him! He was nice enough to respond to these things! How would you feel if you owned a bussiness, had to let an employee go, only to be yelled at by every customer! Jeez...

  21. #51

    What more can be said?

    I think everything that could be said has been said.

    The one thing that I would like to point out is how well Tom has handled this. He reopened the thread and willingly stood naked in front of us all.

    How many othe business owners have that kind of dedication to the buyer? And I do not just mean in the industry. I mean anywhere.

    Tom does what he can to make the best markers for the price. He is not a BE or even a Tippman. He sells top of the line markers. That means he will be catering his wares to a smaller group of the demographic then other companies will. His are not Talons, Phantoms, Spyders or the like. The Yugos of the paintball world.

    His are the Corvettes and the Mustangs.

    I would say that the Angel and the Cocker are more like the Ferrari and Lamborghini. They perform a tad better then the American version but they are really just high priced European fluff pieces. (Sorry but I had to take that stab).

    That being said, I think we all need to step back a let Tom have the reins. It is his company but he doesn't act that way. And he also fces up to his mistakes, another big win for him in my book.

    He has also stated, several times, that the break up was amicable and that there was no animosity between him and Jeff. I say good. Jeff was in a rut and wanted his career to go in a direction that was not compatible with AGD. And you get upset over that.

    IT's something to be proud of. So many people today allow themelves to get stuck in a rut so that they die old and unhappy.

    I wish Jeff all the joy in the world, and I am willing to bet vital parts of my anatomy that if he decided that he wanted to come back to AGD that Tom would do what he could to make it happen.
    Return to the free market. Get rid of all government regulations and let society make it's own decisions. Time and again the relaxing of government regulations has increased profits, innovation and the economy.

  22. #52
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    Cool

    Never talked with Jeff, but let me say Jon is a great tech, I have called him a bunch. Thanks brotha

    No one here knows all the facts, and I doubt any 12 year old on the internet is smarter than Tom, so lets stop the stupidity.

  23. #53
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    And with all of this said I believe everyone has had their say on the topic. I will now lock this thread so we can go on to other business.

    Thanks

    AGD

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