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Thread: Super Bolt Update with PICS (you guys are driving me nuts)

  1. #31
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    Originally posted by AGD
    Guys,

    All good sugestions but we are way ahead of you. The stuff is the glass filled wear resistant "super delrin" but I forgot what it's called. If you mill wear rails you have no way to hold the delrin in place. You can't do a sandwitch the stainless gets too thin and a would cost a fortune.

    We were thinking about trying an aluminum sleeve, most of the weight savings with none of the wear problems. See, you guys need to think more out of the box

    AGD
    Welp, if you have milled or extruded rails (stainless or aluminum), why bother with having delrin as part of the bolt at all? The rails would be the only things in contact with the spring and thus would take all of the abuse, so what would having delrin inbetween the rails achieve? Besides adding weight, cost, and manufacturing difficulties that is.

  2. #32
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    Cause it will cause blowback. The bolt needs to seal in the barrel as close as possible to minimize blowback. Having a bolt made of just rails will create a very bad seal.
    Mike Smith

    w00t

  3. #33
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    Thumbs up

    I HAVE THE PERFECT IDEA!!!

    We should put a couple of those elves in the bolt! Those small guys can do miracles!!!

  4. #34
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    Hey Tom, where the used delrin sleeve has black areas on it, am I correct in assuming that those parts are worn less than the more white parts?
    Do you know approx how many shots the bolt actually went through? Or how many shots the bolt goes through before the wear actually begins to cause performance/reliability problems?
    By the wear on that bolt, (assuming the white areas are more worn than the black) it seems that two things causing the most wear are when the flat spring is fully compressed, and the part of the bolt that actually goes furthest into the breach.
    Perhaps trying to round out the inside of the bolt spring a bit would help with a more even wear pattern, or maybe shortening the delrin sleeve, or giving it a metal rim around the bottom of the bolt to help keep that part from wearing out so much.
    As for the top portion, maybe try making a beveled/rounded edge or something?
    Small Delrin sleeve on the back "lip" portion of the bolt to reduce weight more, since that is a big chunk of the weight?

    Well most of these ideas are probably unpractical or whatnot, but just giving some ideas.

  5. #35
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    Neener neener! I briefly had one of these before all of you!!


    DR
    Oderint dum metuant

  6. #36
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    Originally posted by DarkRipper
    Neener neener! I briefly had one of these before all of you!!


    DR
    Neener neener neener! I got to try one of these out too.

  7. #37
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    just a thought

    it would probably take a lot or retooling but you could probably achieve less weight for the bolt and shorter cycling distance if you shorten the powertube and bolt and extend the portion of the powertube where the bolt hits. Basically changing the stroke or distance it moves before changing directins. Also the shorter bolt would definitely be lighter. Not sure if there would be any problems with regard to wiggling or orientatino of the bolt during the stroke but from the top of my head, and if I had the resources, I'd try it... who says the bolt has to be that long? am I making any sense?

    Don
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  8. #38
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    Oh Oh - hey hey! I just had a brain storm for this the other night.

    is there any way you could THREAD the delrin sleave onto the steel bolt? Just 3-4 threads at the tip or the base should do it. Maybe just a DOT of blue locktite?

    Or is there not enough meat to do this?

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  9. #39
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    Tom,
    I know you already stated that you were working on an aluminum sleeve concept. Could you tell me if the inside dimensions of the bolt can change? If it can you could put a bolt together that looks like the design below. The top bolt is the existing automag bolt. The bottom bolt is one made with a stainless back and front but with an aluminum sleeve making up the main section of the bolt (the red area is made of aluminum). As you can see, the inside diameter of the bolt would be larger. This could have the added plus of improved air flow through the bolt. Let me know what you think.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #40
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    I think it is a good idea but I would think that the stresses at the point of the joint or attachment of the aluminum to the stainless steel portion may become weak. I'm not even considering the difference in materials and any problems that may cause with regard to expansion due to differences in temperature. Guess it may be a more prudent choice to find a stronger way to attach the aluminum portion to the stainless part. Just a thought.

    Don

  11. #41
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    I had the same thoughts as far as how to attach the aluminum sleeve to the other pieces. First of all the aluminum sleeve would have to be an extruded aluminum tube. It could be dented if the bolt were dropped but under normal use in a mag I can't imagine it wearing out. It would be much less expensive to make (extruded compared to machined aircraft aluminum). It could then be crimped onto the stainless parts (see the new picture attached). Also, for additional weight reduction the nose of the bolt and inner rod could be machined from aircraft grade aluminum (see green area in the picture). Obviously, this would have to be tested for durability but I really think it could work.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #42
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    Also, with the nose of the bolt made of machined aluminum, it would be less expensive to machine different air flow holes in the nose of the bolt. So, if there was a compromise made between manufacturing cost and design of the stainless bolt nose, you could now choose the most efficient air flow design without increasing manufacturing costs by much. I also had another idea in terms of air flow through the bolt. If the inner rod of the bolt came to a point or a more aerodynamic shape it would decrease the disruption of air flow that the flat surface that's there now creates (see attached picture). Again, this would make the air flow through the bolt more efficiently. I don't know if this will really make any noticable difference but is could be something to try.

    Tom, I hope I'm not driving you too nuts with this, it's just an idea.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Maverick; 10-01-2001 at 08:34 PM.

  13. #43
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    Here's a picture of what I was trying to get across with the air flow improvement through the bolt. I know that this is a greatly simplified representation of the air flow leaving the powertube but I did this to get my point across.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #44
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    That bolt looks VERY dangerous. Think about this. That crimp some how gives away. Now you have the tip of the bolt coming out of the barrel at 300fps Can you say OUCH?

  15. #45
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    I hadn't really thought about that until you brought it to my attention. Honestly though, I believe the existing stainless bolt from AGD is just press fit together (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't beleive they use any welds to hold the nose inside the outer structure of the bolt. Now it is stainless to stainless so there would be much less give in the material, but it still could come apart the same way. In my example, the nose piece would need to have a groove for the aluminum tube to be crimped into. I do believe that this would make a good joint and hold the bolt together. Obviously, only actually building it and thorough testing could really prove any of what I'm saying.

  16. #46
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    Guys,

    I appreciate all the effort but the bolt is a precision piece that must seal air and never fall apart (it would come out the barrel). We oven braze the center piston in the bolt tube to make sure it stays there. We are going into limited production with the replacable delrin sleeve. Look for them first on the SFL Emags and for sale as an acc. part.

    AGD

  17. #47
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    Have you guys tried Titanium for the bolt? I used to have a venom Lightning Bolt, and I do believe it was made of titanum with a composite face. It did weigh considerably less than the stock bolt I used it to replace.

    -Chris

  18. #48
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    i think they should put the super bolt for sale to AO members first..we're the ones who've been driving Tom to the edge of insanity since this thing was whispered about...

  19. #49
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    Titanium is a great metal but it is not stainless steel. Titanium is strong but soft at the same time. The titanium that venom uses is not NASA grade. So over time it will chip and flake. Also with titanium it will cost a hole lot more to re-tool the shop to start turning out titanium products. Now with the composite rod, well you need to make sure that thing won't come free and fly out (that's around 200 mph)

  20. #50
    You could teflon coat them. Less friction means less wear. Or would that be too expensive?

  21. #51
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    I have a thought........

    If the object is to lighten the bolt but maintain a good wear factor....why not just flute the existing stainless bolt? Like they do to rifle barrels in order to lighten them up while maintaining the general barrel characteristics. I realize we are talking about the Bolt of the Mag....but the concept is the same. It would lighten the bolt somewhat but since its stainless it would maintain a good wear factor.
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  22. #52
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    my step dad has a couple titanium screws from several years ago when he worked for delta. they are less than an inch long and cost over $600 a piece. and thats a simple screw, not some whacko shape like a bolt

  23. #53
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    Originally posted by Restola
    my step dad has a couple titanium screws from several years ago when he worked for delta. they are less than an inch long and cost over $600 a piece. and thats a simple screw, not some whacko shape like a bolt
    A lot of the cost for that screw (or any other part for an aircraft) is to pay for insurance. Take that screw for example...or a simple rivet. They may be the very same thing you can pick up at the hardware/auto parts store for a few cents - same manufacturer, same factory. But...and that's a big BUT...parts that are certified airworthy are horrendously expensive, due to the massive insurance that the manufacturers carry.

    Back in my college days, I was taking flight & aircraft mechanic's courses. Civil aviation aircraft (Cessnas, Beechcraft, Piper, etc.) are ancient in terms of the technology used. Most of the engines still use carburetors rather than fuel injection. A simple caruburetor that you would pay maybe $20 for at the auto parts store would cost you from a few to several hundred dollars. Same exact part, just certified for aircraft use.

    Whenever a plane crashes, anyone that can be hit with a lawsuit will most likely be sued. The lawyers aren't gonna go after the pilot...they'll go after whomever has the deep pockets, in this case, manufacturers of the various aircraft components, as well as the aircraft manufacturer.

  24. #54
    KamikazePenguin Guest
    the inside rod of the bolt that seals with the powertube, have you guys at AGD toyed with the idea of making this rod delrin, or putting a delrin sleeve on it? you could then make the the powertube on the valve itself smooth SS and eliminate the need for power tube spacers/power tube o-rings, it wouldn't be necessary as the delrin would always seal with the powertube. The only problem i can think of is you wouldn't be able to oil the gun through the ASA because the oil would get on the delrin in the bolt and cause it to swell, making the bolt get stuck....that same thing could happen with the delrin sleeve so you've probably already found a way around it.

  25. #55
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    also the derlin would wear out and eventually cause a bad seal.
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  26. #56
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    I hate to bring this thread back to the top, but I just wanted to throw out a couple more ideas:

    What about making the main bolt spring lock into the body somehow, disallowing it from minimally floating and sitting at different angels after each trigger pull. This would keep it at a fixed position and, hopefully, not letting it rub on the delrin sleeve as much.

    Or, can the main spring be coated with something, still keeping it's strength, but a smoother contact with the delrin?
    Manny

  27. #57
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    i know, i know, but i just wanted to throw one more idea into the pot for the sake of argument.

    what would be wrong with a bolt such as this, maintaining a one-piece stainless body, with a consistant OD, with long machined holes drilled as such down the length:
    Attached Images Attached Images

  28. #58
    Originally posted by Zarak
    I HAVE THE PERFECT IDEA!!!

    We should put a couple of those elves in the bolt! Those small guys can do miracles!!!
    he probly would, but it would cost us more, and im sure those elves are almost extinct, and hard to find, now that so many people are buying autocockers
    -mag
    -cocker
    i have both.

  29. #59
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    Well..World Cup coming next week and the Super bolt officially making it's appearance on the SFL eMags...when does the general public get a shot to buy one of these bolts...i'm gonna be upgrading my mag to an eMag and i want to know how i can get one...i wanna be a guinea pig...

  30. #60
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    Subsequent testing is showing that most of the wear happens when you dry fire the gun without a barrel. The bolts that are only shot with barrels are showing much less wear.

    Manny your black SFL is going together monday with the new bolt in it and I am bringing one down for your regular gun on monday.

    AGD

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