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Thread: Cocker users copy and paste this old info...from Ravi

  1. #1
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    Cocker users copy and paste this old info...from Ravi

    4 Easy Steps to a Properly Timed Autococker
    Timing an Autococker is seen by many as being a black art, known and practiced by only a select few who have the "touch" to get an Autococker running properly. In fact, timing an Autococker is pretty simple, but there are a lot of little things to pay attention to when you're doing it to get it right. It's most often these little details and a fundamental misunderstanding as to how the Autococker works that trips people up.

    I'll start by saying that the most effective way to make sure that your Autococker works well for the long term is to NOT fiddle around with it. If you're Autococker is in good time and is working properly, you should stop reading this article now. This guide is only for those who's 'guns are hopelessly out of time, and who don't have an experienced Autococker tech to help them out. I promise you that if you're 'gun is working now and you try to use this article to make it "even better," it will almost certainly come out worse. It is not a guide on how to do a trigger-job. It is not a comprehensive trouble-shooting guide (I'll be writing one later). This is a very basic guide to tell you how to get an Autococker (or Minicocker) properly timed. The first time you try it, it probably won't work very well. But with time and practice you should eventually become quite proficient at timing Autocockers using these basic principals as your guide.

    Before I begin, you should know that I'm making some assumptions about the 'gun that is being timed. I'm assuming that the autococking system regulator (on the front of the 'gun) is properly set and is feeding sufficient pressure to the autococking system to cycle the 'gun. I'm assuming that the trigger and sear are sprung properly such that there is enough tension to close the 4-way valve when the trigger is released, and enough tension to keep the sear-lug from slipping over the sear. I'm assuming that your sear lug and sear are not worn out to the point where they will no longer catch. If any of these things are pre-existing problems, you will not be able to time your Autococker.

    Step 1: Set back block position
    The block is the part at the back of the 'gun that is screwed onto the pump rod, connecting it to the ram. The bolt and cocking rod go through the block and are drawn back by it when the 'gun is cycled. Positioning the block properly is probably the single most neglected setting on Autocockers. The block position is very important to ensure that there is enough backward movement of the block to cock the 'gun and allow another paintball to drop into the breech.

    Having the block screwed in too far can lead to several problems. Obviously if it's in way too far, it could not move back far enough to cock the 'gun or allow a paintball to drop into the breech. In less extreme cases, the ram has to push all the way to the back of it's stroke (where it is weakest) to draw the hammer back far enough to catch the sear. In this case, any reduction in pressure through the autococking system will lead to the block not being pushed back far enough to cock the 'gun or completely feed the next paintball. During slow-fire, this isn't a problem. But during rapid fire, when the regulator may not be fast enough to provide a steady flow of pressure it leads to stumbling, double-firing, and chopped paintballs.

    You want to screw on the block such that, when the ram is all the way forward, the block just touches the back of the body. This accomplishes a few things. First, it ensures that the block can definately be pushed back far enough to cock the 'gun and that ram is in the middle of it's stroke (where it's strongest) when the hammer has been drawn back far enough to catch the sear. Second, it ensures that the block will definately be able to draw the bolt back far enough to allow a paintball to drop into the breech. Finally, with some work, you can actually position the block such that the block comes right up to the body, but doesn't actually meet it. This eliminates much of the clacking sound characteristic of an Autococker cycling.



    Step 2: Set cocking rod length
    The cocking rod is the rod that goes through the block and velocity adjuster below the bolt and screws into the back of the hammer in the lower half of the 'gun body. It has a knob at it's end and must be removed to set the velocity on most Autocockers. Oddly, this is also a commonly neglected aspect of timing the Autococker. Setting the rod's length properly is absolutely crucial to ensuring that the bolt can move back far enough to allow paint to feed, and to ensuring that the hammer is drawn back far enough to catch the sear.

    Rod length problems manifest in two ways. If the rod is set too short, the block's backward travel will be limited such that paint will chop during rapid fire, or not feed at all in extreme cases. If the rod is set too long, you run into the same problem you have when the block is screwed in too far; during rapid fire, the 'gun will sometimes stumble and double fire (the hammer doesn't catch the sear and stay back).

    The rod's length is set by it's knob, which screws onto the rod. To lengthen the rod, unscrew the knob from the rod. To shorten it, screw the knob on further. The knob is locked in place with loc-tite on older knobs, and with a small allen screw through the back of the knob on newer stock and aftermarket rods. I'll admit that these can be a total pain in the ***. Shocktech has a new rod that makes life much easier. I highly recommend it.

    You want to set the rod's length such that, when the hammer catches the sear, the bolt has completely cleared the breech. This is most easily done with the 'gun degassed. When you pull the block back it will catch the rod and draw it back, pulling the hammer with it. When the hammer catches the sear, you'll hear a light click and the rod won't try to pull the block forward anymore. You can pull the block back further, but spring tension will return it to that point. This point, with the block as far back as it will rest with the 'gun cocked (ie. the hammer caught), is where you want the bolt to be completely clear of the breech. Look into the feed tube and see where the tip of the bolt is positioned. You want it to be completely clear of the breech, but not drawn too far back beyond the back of the breech. Ideally, you want the bolt to just clear the breech when the hammer catches. This ensures that every time the 'gun cocks, the bolt is drawn back far enough to feed another paintball.



    If the bolt is partially occluding the breech, it may still be drawn back far enough to clear the breech, but any decrease in cocking pressure through the reg could result in a small reduction in the distance the block is drawn back. If this is the case, it could still be drawn back far enough to cock the 'gun, but not far enough for the bolt to clear the breech, resulting in incomplete feeding and possibly a chopped ball. Lengthen the rod by unscrewing the knob until the bolt is completely clear of the breech with the 'gun cocked.



    If the rod is too long, the ram may have to go all the way to the back of it's throw to cock the 'gun. This can lead to the same problems as with the block screwed on too far. If you see the bolt going more than 2 mm past the breech, shorten the rod by screwing the knob further on.

    I should note here that others do this differently. They are happy if the bolt clears the breech completely with the 'gun gassed up and the trigger pulled. This is fine as well if you absolutely know that your low pressure reg is perfectly reliable in recharging quickly or you have the pressure turned up higher than necessary (an extra 1/2 turn or more on an adjustable reg).

    After adjusting the rod, always remember to lock it back in place with the locking screw or with loc-tite.

    Step 3: Set sear-lug length (firing point)
    The third step is setting the point where the 'gun fires in the trigger-pull. This is set by setting the sear-lug length. The sear lug is a screw that goes through the hammer, and is the part of the hammer that catches the sear in the grip frame when the 'gun is cocked. If you have a stock Autococker, you have to remove the grip frame to adjust the sear-lug. If you have a 'cocker with an external sear access hole, you can drop a wrench through the top of the'gun to adjust the sear lug without having to remove the frame.



    When setting the length of the sear-lug, there are a couple of things to keep in mind. First, you want to make sure that there is enough lug catching the sear for the two to hold reliably with each fire of the 'gun. Setting the lug too short (a common mistake made by people trying to shorten their trigger pulls) can allow the sear-lug to slip over the sear once the parts get worn in some so the 'gun won't stay cocked on every shot. Second, you want to make sure that the 'gun fires early enough in the pull for you to set the cocking point (step 4) past it.

    Screwing the lug back into the hammer such that less of it protrudes below the hammer moves the firing point forward in the pull (makes it fire earlier). Screwing the lug further out of the hammer so more of it sticks out below the hammer moves the firing point back in the trigger pull (makes it fire later).

    In my time with the Autococker, I've found that the lug has to be set to allow the 'gun to fire at least half-way through the trigger pull for reliable operation. Though you can set it to fire earlier than that, I've found that eventually sear and lug-wear lead to the hammer slipping over the sear. A good marker I use to set the firing point is the alignment of the holes in the trigger-plate and grip frame that the timing rod goes through. The trigger is about half-way back when the hole in the trigger-plate is centered in the hole in the grip frame. I typically set the 'gun to fire at that point. You can set it to fire further back in the trigger-pull, but I haven't found any real tangible benefit from that.



    Step 4: Set the timing rod length (cocking point)
    The final step to bringing your Autococker into proper time is to set the point in the trigger-pull where the autococking system is triggered to cock the 'gun. This is set by adjusting the length of the timing rod. This is the only step in timing the Autococker where the 'gun actually needs to be gassed up.

    The timing rod is the bent rod on the right side of the 'gun that attaches to the 4-way valve at it's front and bends to go through the trigger frame and plate at its back. You'll note a small collar that the front end of the rod goes into. This collar couples the rod to the 4-way. There are two screws in this collar. The front screw attaches the collar to the 4-way. DO NOT REMOVE OR LOOSEN THIS SCREW! The back screw is the one that holds the rod in place. This is the screw that you have to loosen to adjust rod length. If you have a stock timing rod, the rod simply slides into the collar. It can be adjusted by loosening the back screw and sliding the rod in or out as needed. If you have a threaded timing rod, the rod screws into the collar, requiring you to rotate the collar around the rod to shorten or lengthen the rod after loosening the screw. Shortening the timing rod moves the cocking point of the trigger pull forward. Lengthening the rod moves the point where the 'gun cocks back in the pull.



    Since the way an Autococker works is to fire with the first part of the trigger pull, and to cock with the second part, obviously you want to set the point in the trigger pull where the 'gun cycles behind where it releases the hammer and fires the 'gun. To minimize blow-back (gas blown up the feed-tube), you want to set the trigger-up such that when the 'gun fires the bolt is still being held firmly forward, and only after that does it cock. I check this by slowly pulling the trigger back until it fires. When it fires, I watch the block. If the block starts to move back before, or jumps back when the 'gun fires, I lengthen the rod slightly and try it again. I repeat this procedure until when the 'gun fires, the block stays firmly forward, and doesn't start to move back until I slide the trigger further back. This ensures that the 'gun has fired before it starts to cock, and reduces blow-back to a minimum.

    A too-long timing rod can result in several problems. If the rod is extremely long, the block will always stay forward no matter how far you pull the trigger since it can't pull the 4-way piston back far enough. In less extreme cases the 'gun will cock close to the back of the trigger pull and will start to move forward on trigger-release before the sear has come forward far enough for the sear to catch the lug. In this case, the block will cycle without the 'gun firing and the cocking rod slips forward on each return of the block. In the least extreme cases, the sear-lug will only sometimes slip over the sear, resulting in occasional double fires followed by dropped shots.

    A too-short timing rod has several consequences as well. If the rod is far too short, the block will always stay back, even with the trigger completely released. In less extreme cases, the block will begin to cycle before the sear can release the hammer and the 'gun will cycle without firing. It differs from a the too-long rod instance in that the 'gun stays cocked with the cocking rod staying back in the cocked position between cycles rather than returning all the way forward. In the least severe cases, the 'gun will appear to function normally, but excessive blow-back will result in poor velocity consistency and occasional chopped balls during rapid fire and when your hopper runs low on paint.

  2. #2
    Whatever happened to Ravi, anyway? I remember him writing for PGI when it was new, but nothing since then.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    does his website even still work?

    I remember reading his site back in 96-97... Good stuff, but it makes you realize, he was reviewing single trigger frame, mechanical, cockers. And they still cost upwards of $1200!

    Personally, the blue/black/white Westwood that Ravi has/had would be the sickest receipient of a Race kit/Palmer & Eclipse pneus/halfblock? ever. Dead sexy.
    God....I guess I was probably returning videotapes.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCpoloRicker
    does his website even still work?

    I remember reading his site back in 96-97... Good stuff, but it makes you realize, he was reviewing single trigger frame, mechanical, cockers. And they still cost upwards of $1200!

    Personally, the blue/black/white Westwood that Ravi has/had would be the sickest receipient of a Race kit/Palmer & Eclipse pneus/halfblock? ever. Dead sexy.
    You know, its funny, not even 2 weeks ago in another thread I was asking what ever happened to Paintball Ravi and his awesome site.. I still have the link for it but of course it is not there..

    I was hoping that some one had gotten all the good info off the page before it went down.. If I remember correctly he had basically some of the best information on Mags and Cockers compared to any one back then...


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  5. #5

    Use the Force Luke, Use the Force! err the Wayback Machine Yeah :)

    Guys you can still get to all of his stuff using the wayback machine


    http://web.archive.org/web/200312060...nfosheets.html

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Also, the cocker owners group has this info. YEah, his website has been down for over a year now, which kinda sucks...but, they have the same thing on the COG. Good find though.
    X-mag #10. Nuff said.

    my feedback

  7. #7

    Exclamation WayBack machine

    Maybe i should be more clear.

    You can find any dead website using the wayback machine

    http://web.archive.org/collections/web.html
    Last edited by MikeRosenthal; 12-01-2004 at 01:20 PM. Reason: Added Link

  8. #8
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    Yes it was a shame to see his site go down. I have the Infosheet page saved in my computer whole. That particular section and the one below about troubleshooting a cocker are IMO the best info ever written. Makes perfect sense and once you understand it , you are a cocker god. There is no part of it that remains a mystery.

    Enjoy.

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