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Thread: Original Q&A about Nitrogen

  1. #1
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    Original Q&A about Nitrogen

    Historical Data for your reading pleasure. We wrote this because everyone was against Nitro.

    AGD

    What a major magazine said at the time:

    The majority of paintballers we've spoken with are very concerned about the explosive hazards of such a high-pressure gas.

    If a hose leaks or a burst disc ruptures, the high-pressure nitrogen jetting out of the hole can slice through skin like a razor. And if nitrogen gas enters the circulatory system, an embolism can cause a fatal heart attack in a matter of seconds.

    If one of the fittings blows at a joint, the escaping nitrogen will whip the metal-tipped hose with approximately four times the force of CO2.

    And if nitrogen gas at 3,000 psi blew past a seal and into the valve housing of most currently manufactured paintguns, there is a real possibility of the valve housing exploding like a grenade or the power tube blowing out of the barrel like a bullet.

    Current two-stage regulators with rupture-disc safeties are not safe.

    ************************************************** *************

    AIRGUN DESIGNS, INC.
    QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ABOUT NITROGEN

    Q: WHY SHOULD I USE NITROGEN?

    A: Today's high-performance guns are capable of shooting hundreds of shots in a matter of minutes. This rapid consumption of liquid CO2 leads to freezing and pressure loss in the tank and plays havoc with the gun's velocity. Liquid CO2 pressure can be affected by ambient temperature alone. Nitrogen is never in a liquid state and is not affected by ambient temperature or rapid consumption.

    Q: WHAT ADVANTAGES WILL I SEE ON THE FIELD?

    A: Consistent velocity regardless of temperature or consumption rate; no liquid means no supercharging; improved velocity consistency has allowed many players to chrono in at the low 290's with no fear of shooting over.

    Q: WHY IS VELOCITY SO IMPORTANT?

    A: Contrary to popular opinion, a paintball shot at 290 fps will travel the same distance no matter which gun it is shot from. Maximum effective range can only be had by shooting at the highest legal velocity. With today's high firepower guns, close- in skirmishes are giving way to long-range sniping. The farther and more consistent your gun will shoot, the better you will score.

    Q: ISN'T NITROGEN MORE DANGEROUS BECAUSE OF THE HIGHER PRESSURE?

    A: Any pressure over 500 psi is considered high pressure and should be treated with the proper respect. Nitrogen tanks are rated to 3000 psi and are generally filled to 2500 psi from the fill tank. They have the same D.O.T. approval number as the Parker 7 oz. tanks. Once filled our built-in regulator regulates the outgoing pressure to 800 psi or less so the gun sees the same pressure as CO2. A 500 shot nitrogen tank at 2500 psi and a 500 shot liquid CO2 tank both have the same amount of energy stored in them.

    Q: HOW DO I GET THE TANKS FILLED AND HOW MUCH DOES THE GAS COST?

    A: The same places you or your field purchase liquid CO2 can supply you with 2500 psi nitrogen tanks that look just like the 50 lb. CO2 tanks. They have a different valve thread but accept a fill station that is functionally similar to CO2 fill stations. The average cost to fill a 50 lb. nitrogen tank is $10.00 to $15.00 and is good for 10-15,000 shots.

    Q: NITROGEN STARTS AT HIGH PRESSURE AND GETS LOWER WITH EVERY SHOT; HOW DOES THIS AFFECT VELOCITY?

    A: The nitrogen tank has a built in regulator that is adjusted to regulate the outgoing gas to 500-600 psi. It then enters the gun where the 68AUTOMAG's internal regulator brings it down to 400 psi to fill the chamber. This 2-stage regulation assures consistent pressure/velocity until the tank's pressure is below 400 psi.

    Q: HOW MANY SHOTS WILL I GET FROM A TANK?

    A: Using 450 shots per 7 oz. CO2 tank as a reference, there are several different size tanks available: 500 shots 3.6" x 8.4"; 800 shots 4" x 9.5"; and 1500 shot capacity which is 4.5" x 11.6".

    Q: WILL THEY LET ME USE NITROGEN IN TOURNAMENTS?

    A: Nitrogen has already been accepted by the Florida Captains Council and the Paint Check 5 Man Tournament. We are currently working on tournament approval by distributing information such as this leaflet. If you feel nitrogen is a good idea, let your tournament director know.

    Q: WILL NITROGEN WORK ON MY PUMP GUN?

    A: Yes, pump guns will work fine.

    Q: CAN I FILL IT WITH CO2 IF NITROGEN IS NOT AVAILABLE?

    A: Yes, but you will have to adjust your velocity down 30-40 fps.

    Q: WHAT IS THE COST?

    A: High performance generally has a high price tag. The solid aluminum bottles that hold 3000 psi are too heavy for paintball (ever lift a scuba tank?). The bottles we are using are identical to the units on the space shuttle that provide high strength with low weight by using a light weight aluminum core overwrapped with a fiberglass filament for strength. Preliminary estimates put the cost between $250-$300 for a complete system.


    ************************************************** *****************
    Here is the press release we put out after we got blasted.


    Airgun Designs, Inc. has always been on the leading edge of paintball technology and in the middle of controversy. All of our products have met some form of resistance when they were first introduced but went on to become very successful in the marketplace. The Micro C/A was the first 12 gram changer to have a back check valve that held gas pressure at all times. This feature was banned from many tournaments. The 6-Pak+ changed cartridges so fast it was just like constant air and by the next season all but one of the national tournaments was back to CA. Our semi-auto the 68AUTOMAG when custom tuned, has recorded chrono strings as fast as 9 shots per second. This blurs the distinction between semi and full-auto and is prompting the major tournament directors to consider limiting the number of semi-auto's per team.

    Nitrogen is our latest project causing the industry to stand up and take notice. In the world of paintball technology there are only three areas that can be improved on: 1) the paintballs, 2) the guns, and 3) the power source. As we all know, the guns have evolved tremendously while the paintballs and the power source have remained virtually unchanged. Nitrogen is our attempt to bring the power source into the twenty-first century. Nitrogen is advantageous because it is stored as compressed gas with no liquid. The disadvantage, and hence the safety issue, is that in order to store enough shots in a small tank the pressure can be as high as 2500 psi. Although these pressures are unfamiliar in the paintball industry, they are being safely used on a daily basis in other industries such as scuba (3000 psi venting into lungs), fire fighting (3000 psi plus high heat and flames), and welding (2500 psi plus explosive gases). Even closer to home are the nitrogen gas springs in hatch back cars that are under thousands of pounds of pressure.

    Airgun Designs, Inc. has been a long-time supporter of the IPPA and applauds their efforts to establish safety standards for our industry. We feel that we are acting responsibly in not selling nitrogen systems until the safety questions have been answered. At the time of this writing, there are less than twelve nitrogen systems in existence. One of our systems has recently been tested by AUTHORIZED TESTING INC. a DOT proved testing facility and consultant to the IPPA on safety issues. Page seven of the report states "BASED UPON THE TEST DATA OBTAINED AND DOCUMENTED HEREIN, THE AIRGUN SYSTEM SUBMITTED FOR EVALUATION APPEARS TO BE WELL ENGINEERED AND HAS INHERENT PRESSURE CAPABILITIES WELL IN EXCESS OF THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH NORMAL USE." Complete copies of this report are available from Airgun Designs at no charge.

    In the end the players will decide if they want to continue with co2 and the temperature/pressure fluctuations along with its contribution to global warming, or join Airgun Designs in the 21st century and enjoy the rewards that come from being on the leading edge.

    Airgun Designs
    Last edited by AGD; 12-19-2004 at 02:17 AM.

  2. #2
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    Great post,Tom. Found some new Info.
    "STAY OUT OF SMART PARTS SECTIONS.
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    THIS IS LAW"-PBN MOD
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    LittlePaintballBoy Guest
    Sweetness.

  4. #4
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    doesn't agd also have the patent on nitrogen systems?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuiciDal Sn Y p ER
    doesn't agd also have the patent on nitrogen systems?

    Nope I heard Tom didnt patent it to allow for the advancement of the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xXHavokXx
    Nope I heard Tom didnt patent it to allow for the advancement of the sport.
    What a good man, unlike some we know.
    Pete

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  8. #8
    awesome. im gonna show this to my friends who think that nitrogen is a fluke.
    rt ule custom, boomstick, ult,apoc2k and x board revi, i want:j&j ceramic.

  9. #9
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    great post tom! you have always been on the leading edge of paintball technology... too bad most paintballers seem to not want to accept that.

    Quote Originally Posted by mag88888
    awesome. im gonna show this to my friends who think that nitrogen is a fluke.


    slap your friends for me, will you?
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  10. #10
    i will.

  11. #11
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    What a major magazine said at the time:
    Read: APG

    I remember reading that and thinking "Grenade"? That's a little over the top.

    Great post Tom. To anyone who owns the original LVL 7 video (or is it 6?) Tom shows an early nitro system in that.

    The gun is 1/8" of a game that is a FOOT long!
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  12. #12
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    is this in histroic post? ifnot add it.....wow seems liek toms been busy here on ao lately good info even though it may seem somehwat retarded today with thuse use of 4500 tank etc

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGD
    Historical Data for your reading pleasure. We wrote this because everyone was against Nitro.

    AGD

    Airgun Designs, Inc. has been a long-time supporter of the IPPA and applauds their efforts to establish safety standards for our industry. We feel that we are acting responsibly in not selling nitrogen systems until the safety questions have been answered. At the time of this writing, there are less than twelve nitrogen systems in existence. One of our systems has recently been tested by AUTHORIZED TESTING INC. a DOT proved testing facility and consultant to the IPPA on safety issues. Page seven of the report states "BASED UPON THE TEST DATA OBTAINED AND DOCUMENTED HEREIN, THE AIRGUN SYSTEM SUBMITTED FOR EVALUATION APPEARS TO BE WELL ENGINEERED AND HAS INHERENT PRESSURE CAPABILITIES WELL IN EXCESS OF THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH NORMAL USE." Complete copies of this report are available from Airgun Designs at no charge.

    Airgun Designs

    What is the date on this press release? IPPA was founded in 88 and disbanded in 96, anyone know why?

    HPA was allowed at NPPL in 92. Jacksonville Warriors and us[S.O.B.s] were the first to be useing our own compressors and cascadeing scuba tanks at a tournament. We had like 6 tanks and the warriors had like 10 or 12. What a site that was to see. Other players wanted us to fill for them cause NPPL wasnt up to speed on fills yet. 3000psi was like breathable Gold back then. Thank god for Ron FieldHack[RIP]. He was a teacher of teachers and taught us all the ins and outs of HPA. Last thing you wanted to do was equalize the hi and low tanks. He was our man on the valves filling us between games.

    How come it took the IAO THREE YEARS to let us use HPA? Thats right we had to use co2 from 92 to 95

    The bottles we are using are identical to the units on the space shuttle that provide high strength with low weight by using a light weight aluminum core overwrapped with a fiberglass filament for strength.
    Hey would that make PaintBall like rocket science? No couldnt be. They wouldnt use plastic lines at HP and probably triple test [or more] their systems before use.

    How do you feel about todays 4500 or 5000 psi systems?

    I keep asking questions about what would happen in a HPA system failure and all I hear is that wont happen or Bad things Thats what. Any other company have a DOT aproved testing report on their Markers.[oh wait that cost you money didnt it]

    I BET thats one REPORT you wont misplace.

    Makes me want to bring back My "Only With AGD" Thread

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronobreak
    wow seems liek toms been busy here on ao lately
    Tom doesn't have to worry so much about running a business now!!! It's awesome to see you around, Mr. Kaye!
    "I don't have a creative bone in my body."

    jon-boy's feedback

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGD


    Q: CAN I FILL IT WITH CO2 IF NITROGEN IS NOT AVAILABLE?

    A: Yes, but you will have to adjust your velocity down 30-40 fps.
    Wow, I didn't know this.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilestyler
    Wow, I didn't know this.

    Do not fill your HPA system with CO2. If it is a fiber wrapped tank the change in temp will cause the inner aluminum liner to expand and contract and by doing this seperating from the fiber wrap. This can cause the tank to fail. Also, most regs that are on HPA systems do not like liquid CO2.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzikman
    Do not fill your HPA system with CO2. If it is a fiber wrapped tank the change in temp will cause the inner aluminum liner to expand and contract and by doing this seperating from the fiber wrap. This can cause the tank to fail. Also, most regs that are on HPA systems do not like liquid CO2.

    Tom made that comment back when they were using steel hpa tanks, right? rather than the fiber wrapped aluminum...

  18. #18
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    More than likely. Steel was more common back then, but fiber wrapped was around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rkjunior303
    Tom made that comment back when they were using steel hpa tanks, right? rather than the fiber wrapped aluminum...
    well in another comment tom does say that it is the same fiber wrapped tanks used in space shuttles, and in an old pic that was on AO a little while ago tom and his team was using fiber wrapped tanks. (but i dont know when that pic was taken)

  20. #20
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    1991 i think

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzikman
    Do not fill your HPA system with CO2. If it is a fiber wrapped tank the change in temp will cause the inner aluminum liner to expand and contract and by doing this seperating from the fiber wrap. This can cause the tank to fail. Also, most regs that are on HPA systems do not like liquid CO2.

    Dont think so. We were using 68 3000 carleton tanks for co2 all the time.[3yrs] Pin valve,no pin with on/off right on valve. Had to switch for the IAO

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    Wizard '92'


  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beemer
    Dont think so. We were using 68 3000 carleton tanks for co2 all the time.[3yrs] Pin valve,no pin with on/off right on valve. Had to switch for the IAO

    I am trying to find the article about doing so. It was also what I was told by the APPA years ago when they had a class about HPA.

    It sounds logical, so I would rather play on the side of caution.

    EDIT:
    Not that it doesn't mean much, but Criag Palmer doesn't like the idea much either;

    http://paintmagazine.com/phpBB2/view...hlight=co2+hpa

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    its all good

    Hey I hear ya better Safe Then Dead, Hurt or Blind. If we knew then what we know now.eh Then again look at what we know now. It doesnt seem to be helping us any.
    Just like now, we say what the hell were we thinking back then, they will look back to now and say the same thing.


    Peace Out
    Beemer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzikman
    Do not fill your HPA system with CO2. If it is a fiber wrapped tank the change in temp will cause the inner aluminum liner to expand and contract and by doing this seperating from the fiber wrap. This can cause the tank to fail. Also, most regs that are on HPA systems do not like liquid CO2.
    Old wives tale about the tanks. I asked our tank manufacturers about this and it isn't a problem.

    But very true that many tank regs aren't so compatible with CO2.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by manike
    Old wives tale about the tanks. I asked our tank manufacturers about this and it isn't a problem.

    But very true that many tank regs aren't so compatible with CO2.
    Good to know, still not gonna do it I got CO2 tanks if I want to run CO2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manike
    Old wives tale about the tanks. I asked our tank manufacturers about this and it isn't a problem.

    But very true that many tank regs aren't so compatible with CO2.
    Indeed.

    I've had fiber wrapped CO2 tanks for years and years, with no problems.

    And really, if the chill from CO2 would damage the resin bond, the heat from an HPA fill certainly would too.

    I like that crack about global warming at the end, that was priceless.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoolHand
    Indeed.

    I've had fiber wrapped CO2 tanks for years and years, with no problems.

    And really, if the chill from CO2 would damage the resin bond, the heat from an HPA fill certainly would too.

    I like that crack about global warming at the end, that was priceless.

    Well the heat from a FLASH FILL does do damage to the tank.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by AGD
    Our semi-auto the 68AUTOMAG when custom tuned, has recorded chrono strings as fast as 9 shots per second. This blurs the distinction between semi and full-auto and is prompting the major tournament directors to consider limiting the number of semi-auto's per team.

    My how times change......

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beemer
    Well the heat from a FLASH FILL does do damage to the tank.
    Indeed, but only if it heats the tank in excess of 140 deg F.

    Edited to reflect correct temp.
    Last edited by CoolHand; 12-20-2004 at 12:11 AM.

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