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Thread: Official Deadlywind hAir trigger update

  1. #91
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    I'm told you can file a provisional application for $80. I'm assuming this is what he's referring to.

  2. #92
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    Trust me, I understand the patent process, I currently have over $15K invested so far with no end in sight.

    (No, they are not paintball patents)


    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    Muzikman:

    I did not say an issued patent. here's what I did say:

    "I have filed numerous, numerous, numerous applications over the past several years."

    and, originally:

    "You can get protection for under $100"

    I'll not reveal my secret - even though its publicly available at www.uspto.gov. I'll let you figure it out for yourself.

    If you want to talk about getting a GRANT and the cost to see it through from application to granting, then even your 400 is too low an estimate: filing fees are based on the total number of claims as well as the number of independent claims and a few other factors as well (such as the kind of utility application, expedited, etc.) and you can expect, even when filing yourself, to pay several thousand dollars in application and publication fees, dollars for drawings, dollars for searching and, in the end, dollars for a patent attorney to clean up the mess you made yourself.

    But that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about a low cost system that was put specifically in place for the 'poor' inventor.

  3. #93
    Wc Keep Guest
    who gives a rats *** about all this patent bull****. its not going to change the fact that dw will not be releasing their product. cant we all anxiously await the release of the pnuetrigger now?

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wc Keep
    cant we all anxiously await the release of the pnuetrigger now?

    That's what most have been doing for the last year or so.

  5. #95
    Wc Keep Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzikman
    That's what most have been doing for the last year or so.

    no youve all been anxiously awaiting the hair trigger. now that thats not released anymore drop it and lets all wait for ptp's.

    i bet you all those who were waiting for the hair could care less about ptp's.........

  6. #96
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    im going to get this out of my chest eve if i get flamed we should be talking about paintball instead of patents lawyers and companies sueing each other all the time this seems sometimes like a discuss the new business in court type of forum okay with that out of the way i can move on in my life

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wc Keep
    no youve all been anxiously awaiting the hair trigger. now that thats not released anymore drop it and lets all wait for ptp's.

    i bet you all those who were waiting for the hair could care less about ptp's.........
    I bet most people that said they would buy the hAir upon release wouldn't even pony up the money. As for many products that were hyped on AO...........................

    CPPA Member #1875

  8. #98
    Wc Keep Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by LoveMyMagMoreThanYou
    I bet most people that said they would buy the hAir upon release wouldn't even pony up the money. As for many products that were hyped on AO...........................
    sad thing is your extremely right cause look how many people said they wanted a pride jersey and never bought them.

  9. #99
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    hey i have an idea you can sell them as a secrit

    jest find a way that you can pm everyone at once saying that you have them for sale no one will know but us that you are selling them.

    ~my e-mag~

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    "Let them eat war [x2]
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    Let them eat war [x2]

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  10. #100
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    rant:on

    Quote Originally Posted by LoveMyMagMoreThanYou
    I bet most people that said they would buy the hAir upon release wouldn't even pony up the money. As for many products that were hyped on AO...........................
    I've been holding a few hundred dollars in my bank account for this very purpose. When nicad said the hAir was cancelled, I spent it on a new profiler, another barrel kit tip, and a couple of days skiing upcountry. Would I have been happier spending it on the hAir? Yes, the snow really sucked and I didn't really need a 10" tip. Would I have actually spent it on the hAir? In a heartbeat. Will I buy the pneumag trigger? Not at first.

    You see, I've had prior experience with deadlywind's products - I bought a dallara body kit. It's well made. It's *beautiful*. It does what I expect. The price is high, but I'm a firm believer in paying for quality.

    I've also had prior experience with pro-team products' stuff. I've owned and shot a stealth barrel, I was going to buy another one (or two, for a project mag). I've seen, used, and sold a lot of the f/x gear they make for tippmann's markers. I've used the warp feed adapter, I've mounted a few PTP warp feed kits to markers. The company as a whole leaves me with a good experience, but there's nothing stellar about it, nothing really stands out.

    AGD gives me the warm fuzzies, DW gives me the warm fuzzies. Proteam doesn't, for whatever reason. So I'll support the companies in that way - I'd be one of the first in line to pay $500 for a hAir trigger from DW, or a hAir trigger from AGD, because I know neither Colin nor Tom would settle for anything less than high quality gear. I won't do that for proteam, because the blind fanatical trust hasn't settled in yet. Once I'm convinced that they are a company that produces an excellent product all of the time and will stand behind their stuff (not like they havn't in the past, but they've just been yet-another-company), and once I'm convinced that their pneumatic frame works and will be supported, then I'll buy one.


    No offense PTP, but just look at the way the two frames are presented to us, the consumer. There's the DW hAir trigger, shown in a *well* *made* video, displaying the trigger action and it's rapid fire capabilities. Then there's the PTP autococker frame video, which isn't the best quality (I know, not a hype video, only had a digicam), which doesn't convey the same impression and is for the *autococker*. I know which one makes me want to buy the product now, and I know which one makes me go "meh".

    I know autocockers are used more often than mags, I know it's a more "target-rich" market, and I know it makes no financial sense to develop a frame like this for a mag first. However, I own a mag, I have money, and I want a pneumatic frame for my marker. One of you two companies needs to work out all the little details, launch a hype campaign (again), and then make yourselves rich off of people like me. And you'd best do it soon, before I build my own darn pneumatic frame.

    rant:off

  11. #101
    hAIR=R.A.I.L

    PTP

    c'mon guys.... do it
    Zim boum bat bamnou, du bou de bambou bandé blindé

  12. #102
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by nicad

    this "idea"-- pneumatic triggers?
    Like the Southern Pneumatics Inc. "Phoenix" in 1992?
    Or The "Omega" in 1995? (known now as the Matrix).
    Bruce's "Nova 700" in 1997?
    Lee Kinney's (known as Punisher) “P-mag” in 1995?

    DW never claimed to have invented pneumatic triggers, we simply made one that works well.

    Don't forget the Sheridan Equalizer, as well as the Air Power Vector.

    Wonder if Crosman likes someone patenting their intellectual property... you might be able to strike a deal with them, and have their weight to put behind this.

    (Which brings the question.. does BE own the properties of the Vector from the Rainmaker patent?)

    Just an idea Good luck either way.
    AzzysDesignWorks.com -Custom Die Cut Stickers
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  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by atm743
    hey i have an idea you can sell them as a secrit

    jest find a way that you can pm everyone at once saying that you have them for sale no one will know but us that you are selling them.
    Would that even be legal? I don't think a personal, friend to friend "shop" upgrade would infringe a patant would it? ....not that most folks would want to even deal with that. Nicad's computer would probably explode from all the incoming email

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicad
    The problem we ran into is that Pro-Team Products was recently
    granted a patent on assisted trigger mechanisms for paintball markers.
    Given the number of guns with pneumatic triggers in the 90s, as well as all the guns modified to have pneumatic triggers in the 90s (ie reversed cockers), the PTP patent seems to be about as valid as.... that guy who managed to patent the AGD "powerfeed" a few years ago.

    It has all been done. Hard to see what legal standing PTP has, other then holding an obviously illegitimate patent.

    But, the sad thruth has become NOT who is "right" but who has the most legal muscle to make demands. Paintball has truely reached the status of "rotten to the core".

    -Nick
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  15. #105
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    Jinxed -- "Paintball has truely reached the status of "rotten to the core".

    so what your saying is that it's just like every over industry in the world
    Last edited by j.storm; 01-06-2005 at 05:22 AM.

  16. #106
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    J storm,

    Yes, it would. Patents confer the right to prevent others from making, distributing, etc the product.

    That includes: copying it directly and selling it, making your own 'just for personal use', modifying something else into a form that infringes or selling components that, when assembled, infringe.

    On the 'pneumatic triggers'; yes, yes, yes, there were plenty of guns that used pneumatic triggers; all of them were examined and discussed prior to filing the application, none of them are 'prior art' for the PTP patent.

    I know that facts and reality can be annoying and that we often try to ignore them, but they're there nonetheless.
    VENGEANCE PAINTBALL DISTRIBUTORS
    X.O. INDUSTRIES PAINTBALLS

  17. #107
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    ah. "I see" said the blind man.

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    That includes: ...making your own 'just for personal use'...
    I do not believe you are correct. As I understand it you can sue for damages. What damages are there? I do not believe there has EVER been a successfull lawsuit against someone for making a patented product for their own use.


    Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
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  19. #109
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    Hitech,

    here it is right from the patent office:


    a patent confers -

    “the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling” the invention in the United States or “importing” the invention into the United States"

    Note that there are separate listings for making, using and 'offering for sale'.

    This means that they are viewed as separate activities and are SPECIFICALLY and individually covered.

    That means, it doesn't matter whether your intent is to market the thing or not: you can not build one and stick it in a closet, you can't use one without permission (buying a licensed copy or one from the patent holder gives you the right to use it) and you can't make one for re-sale.

    I can assure you that if people were making enough of them for their own individual use, and it had enough impact on the marketplace, the patent holder would do everyone they could identify.

    If I were concerned about such a thing, I would post a scrutineer at every major event, after serving the promoter with notice that THEY would be held responsible for allowing infringing activity, unless they prevented any homemade versions from coming onto the grounds. I'd also have the right to seize each and every one of those guns.

    You're right on a small scale; but small scale of stolen property has a way of becoming big scale, and at that point things would begin to happen.

  20. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    ...I'd also have the right to seize each and every one of those guns...
    So does that mean that you can go and seize RobAGD's and Colin's hAirs?
    Eric Cartman

    Respect my authoritah!

  21. #111
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    I'm sorry, but you are starting to really piss me off.

    First, you kill Colin's hAir. Fine, thats all well and good and legal.

    Second, you most likely won't have a production version of your frame available within the next year IF EVER.

    Now you start threatening people who are interested in making their own since you are KILLING any hope of getting one soon from anyone.

    It seems to me you just patented this with the hopes of licensing it. "Patent Squatting" until someones pays you to make their own product.

    So go screw. I hope blueprints leak, because you don't have the cash to patrol every tournament and big/scenario game in the US. And what are you going to sue the average paintballer for? How much damages do you expect to settle for from your average guy? Or just enough to piss everyone off?

    If I made a Pneutrigger and you tried to sieze it, Id have you thrown in jail for theft, or I'd kick your ***. I'm not sure which.

  22. #112
    Wc Keep Guest
    guys remember that rabid does not work for ptp at the moment. he is just stating facts about the patent process. in no way is it official word from ptp.

    this is what happens when you say drop it and everyone and their mother keeps *****ing about it. people get their panties all in a bunch. Who Cares keep playing paintball.

  23. #113
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    I don't care if he works for god himself, hes still being an @$%.

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    I'd also have the right to seize each and every one of those guns.
    He's not making any friends with statements like these.

  24. #114
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    I understand that the law does not allow anyone to make one. However, isn't the only remedy allowed is the recovery of damages? And what damages are there? Wouldn't the patent holder have to show that "I" would have bought one if I hadn't built it myself?

    And you would not be able to seize equipment at an event. Not without more than your personal belief that it is covered by your patent.

    Come on guys; let's keep this civil. It is an interesting discussion in which we ALL can learn something.

  25. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    . I'd also have the right to seize each and every one of those guns.

    Wrong.. you would have the right to ask a court to seize them - but you do not have the right to seize them for infringement without first getting a court order. And then it is likely you could only seize the infrining part (IE WDP suit to seize Shocker grip frames), unless your now claiming a patent to the marker as well?

    Now, read all of my posts... I don't know enough about the iternal workings of any of the companies involved to make judgement on the entire idea... but statements like these let me make a judgement of a company as a whole - regardless of there legal rights.

    Edit: read late that Rabid does not work for PTP... I applaud PTP, AGD, TK, and Nicad for staying out of this discussion. Few of the people one these boards, myself included, have the business, mechanical, and patent knowledge to make judgement on this issue given some, or for that matter all of the facts surrounding the various factors in these decisions.
    Last edited by Lohman446; 01-06-2005 at 12:14 PM.
    "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

  26. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitech
    I do not believe you are correct. As I understand it you can sue for damages. What damages are there? I do not believe there has EVER been a successfull lawsuit against someone for making a patented product for their own use.

    One reason for a clause like that is keep someone for "infringing with no intent to sell",then they sell you a pair of grips for $200 and throw in a free grip frame.

    An action such as that would create similar 'damages' as any more obvious infringments and therefore is not exempt from the Patents protections.

  27. #117
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    From what I have been told by very expensive Patent attorneys, you can not prevent someone from making the item on their own (for their own use). You can only get them for mfg, sale (or giving away) the item.

    EDIT: for clarity.

  28. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boski51
    .....As the game slowly starts to die, the patent wars heats up. Soon the companies will start buying up each other and the "business" of paintball will replace the "sport" of paintball. Players will become consumers or target demo groups whos disposible income will be duly disposed of.

    The business of paintball will sell its soul to TV and insurance companies and the business of paintball will be big, flashy and soul-less..... As the game continues to die, we will be encouraged to buy the fastest, hottest, sexyest markers that can waste paint at wallet destroying speeds. A hotter or better marker will be released the following month to keep the cash flowing from the consumers to the businesses. The consumers will start focusing on sponsership to help pay for the rediculously expensive paint and the $1,700 sexy spyders and will loose focus on things like rules, responsibility and fair play.

    The great game that was born in the woods will die in the boardroom and what is sad is only a few will ever notice.....

    OK, I am off my soap box. Let the flame throwing begin!
    All this you have stated has already happened..........except the $1700 Spyder.

  29. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzikman
    From what I have been told by very expensive Patent attorneys, you can not prevent someone from making the item on their own (for their own use). You can only get them for mfg, sale (or giving away) the item.
    That's my understanding as well.

    You have to admit, it'd be pretty funny if he tried to make a people give up their markers by posting a scrutineer at every major event. Talk about backlash and killing a company through legal bills.

  30. #120
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    Thordic, I'm with you on this one.

    One thing that bugs me about PTP is not knowing who the heck the man in charge is. Has he even played paintball before? Besides the Tippmann parts, I don't really see any PTP products that I've liked. The Micro wasn't the prettiest gun to look at. I just don't have much faith in PTP in making a quality frame. Prove me wrong.

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