I have almost NO idea of what those pics are trying to convey.Originally Posted by Muzikman
I have almost NO idea of what those pics are trying to convey.Originally Posted by Muzikman
What people don't seem to realize about this - which I have only glanced at the drawings and going off others, who know what there talkign about in this thread, words is that you are not going to make one at home.
Even if someone knowledgeable were to write step by step instructions in layman terms it would be very expensive to find someone with the machining capabilities to make one to the tolerances needed. And thats with good instructions so it takes no mechanical intuition about how to make it work, assuming everything goes as instructions, and various other factors that won't happen.
The fact of the matter is, maching the first of anything is almost always more expensive than machining the next few dozen, the cost of setting machines, training operators, screwing one up, etc.
There are a few people on these boards who might be able to make working homemade versions... very few
"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess
Ding ding dingOriginally Posted by Lohman446
We have a winner folks!
Logic Industries LLC
The only insight I'll give is that the 'theory' of how it works is fairly simply,especially the Mag version.I't by far the simplest functioning system.The autococker incurred far more complications,but not the compications that most people would think,it opens up a whole new area of issues that must be overcome.Originally Posted by Lohman446
It's the precise application and method of a few of very specifically functioning parts that seperates the 'theory' from the real life design. Those are the things that make it special and the things that very,very fewpeple will be able to manufacture on there own,and definately not the ability to mass produce.These are the things that will take the most time and money to nail down if you were to build these in any quantity.
If you guys are refferring to my above post, I do understand that it probably be very hard to do and that most could not make it with just a dremel, a file, and some instructions from someone else. And no, I'm not making this to sell a lot of, I am just wanting to see if I can do it cause I like doing that kind of thing cause I have some machine tools and a little experience. I completely respect the opinions of CoolHand and RRFireblade here, cause I know you guys have truckloads of experience in doing all kinds of cool crap with tools and all, but as you might have seen from my various questions and stuff from the Workshop I like to tinker around and all. I might not be able to make one in the long run, and if I do get one made it would take me a million hours to make but I would be proud of it and have some experience chalked up to boot. I just don't know how the thing works. I assume it's either a very small standard 3-way valve connected with an air piloted valve or maybe a membraneish kind of valve or something, I dunno. I completely respect your opinions, but I do enjoy a challenge. If the information on how this thing works, given enough info I could probably ghetto fab me up one that I could play around with. If that infringes upon the patent let me know, cause I wasn't sure if I could just make one for me (I think it was Rogue who made that replica of the RT valve on his own, then later sold it to someone as part of a gun, and as far as I knew there was no patent harm done.) I wouldn't sell it for profit and as a source of income probably ever cause it would be kinda unique (since I don't have your EXACT design) but if it did get sold it would be if I was like getting out of paintball completely, which looks even less likely than me building my own frame.
I might even have to end up getting someone to help me, like one of my professors or something, before I can do this, but it does look like something I would really like to try and do. Again not for a business, but for fun. If you don't want to tell anybody about how it works until it comes out, hey that's cool with me, I understand. But if I could, with your (the patent holder's) permission that would be great. But whatever, it's your call and I trust your judgement way more than I trust my own.
I wasn't making fun of you for wanting to try and build one yourself. Far from it. I like to see guys who take the initiative to figure something out for themselves.
I was poking fun at the fact that a couple of guys (can't remember if you were among them or not) posted wanting to see the patent, so they could just build one themselves and skip all the rest.
The fact that they assumed that they'd just call up the patent, and there would be all the technical drawings and dimensions that they'd need is what I found humorous. Like there would be a step by step set of instructions, with a materials list, and a nice dimensioned print just waiting for them to DL.
As you can plainly see (if you've looked at the patent that is), you're starting from scratch with those drawings.
I just got a chuckle out of it, that's all.
Good luck with your project.
Well guys, I just got a chance to shoot the DW hAir mag today and all I can say is it was NICE. Truly impressive even though I was a bit slow on it(too use to my viking lol). Its a damn shame that DW won't have the chance to release it.
those wanting to 'copy' the patent and claiming to be interested in technical stuff and wanting to explore new things -
why don't you just sit down and try and build something? I mean, if you want to tinker - go tinker. I'd consider starting from the patent to be the 'lazy' approach.
(Most successful inventors are 'aware' of the technology in their chosen field, but they stay away from looking at other people's designs so that their own creativity doesn't get 'contaminated'.)
VENGEANCE PAINTBALL DISTRIBUTORS
X.O. INDUSTRIES PAINTBALLS
There are all kinds of people.
Those who can design.
Those who can design and build.
Those who can build.
Those who are learning to build.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
(I deleted the rest of my post to avoid a fight)
Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
I think at this point you're attitude, which to me comes across as whatever is best to protect PTP is annoying. . BTW... look at my posts before you think I'm out to get PTP, they have been very non-commital to either side, but I think I have come across with the idea that if PTP holds a patent and noone knowledgeable is objecting to it - with reason (waiting for TK to state his reason) than I surely have no reason to.
I don't buy your argument. If I was going to start designing things for paintball I would start by reverse engineering the classic blow forward marker, the autococker, a stacked tube, and a spool valve gun. I would do this solely for learning purposes - and this trigger system would also be included, along with a series of other options.
You see, your talking about someone who already has the knowledge to design, Im talking from a starting point. The knowledge you would gain from doing this can than be used to come up with your own ideas, or to tweak the previous idea and make it better - is this not what the idea of a free market competetive marketplace is about - the evolution of ideas?
One of the purposes of the patent registration system, besides protecting the inventor, is to publish new ideas for the advancement of technology. Starting from scratch every time doesn't help anyone.
Originally Posted by RRfireblade
its still a pnumatic trigger.
[21:00] < FunkTehChillinMunky > I've got a Warped Sportz Dark Talon
Unlike some of the more note worthy posters in this thread,I'm not going to try and explain Patent law to everybody.Originally Posted by skife
In simplest terms...
All Cars have 4 wheels and a motor. Are all cars the same?
Just 'cause Motor cars have existed for 200 years,doesn't mean some one couldn't come up with an original design for one that no one else thought of or simply didn't fully realize as a potential improvement on the "idea".
Going off of Jay's analogy above..
A quad has four wheels and a motor, as well as a drivetrain, transmission, brakes, etc.
A Saleen S7TT has four wheels and a motor, as well as a drivetrain, transmission, brakes, etc.
Didn't think so.
Yet another sad day in paintball, when money prevails over innovation. I have shot RobAGD's hAir, I'm sad to realize that's the only one I'll ever shoot.
Primary: Black Ule Emag, Rogue Wingless Rail, X-Valve, CCM No-Rise, CP Rail Drop / on/off, Egg, 14" CP two piece, 70ci (peanut) dye throttle.
For sale: Micromag RT, Intelliframe, Egg, 12" Dye Stainless, Kapp Foregrip, 88ci Smart Parts Max-Flo 4500psi.
my AO feedback
sigh...i just finally chekced back... 1 month later... to find this project in ruins....god damn them....god damn them to hell
dw, i will be buying one of ur other cool *** products seeing as how i own an am/mm rail
that trigger was goin to put us back on top
i hate electros and people who indulge in them
there is nothign better than a fully mechnaical gun
im good buddies with rob hoover also, ive held that puppy in my hands.... im soo sad....maybe he'll let me have his
Last edited by Andrew Cunje; 01-11-2005 at 08:10 PM.
I LOVE MAGS ...and hate low pressure output tanks....and spyders
Also the one's who hirer all those peopleOriginally Posted by luke
I was responding to this.
why don't you just sit down and try and build something? I mean, if you want to tinker - go tinker. I'd consider starting from the patent to be the 'lazy' approach.QUOTE]
I was implying not everyone has the aptitude or experience to design something like this, so, it doesn’t necessarily make them lazy if were to use the patent as reference.
I don't see looking at a patent or plans as a lazy way out, its gives you a bases to design your own piece.
I do have to say, why reinvent the wheel when its already been made? why not take the wheel reverse engineer it and make it better.
That's it exactly!Originally Posted by Conversekidz
I completely understand that people want to protect what they "invent" but really it's the way of the world to copy or base designs on something that is already proven to work.
Not everyone has the capability to invent something that is truly unique, so the said statement seems a little arrogant to me....
They don't have the appropriate smiley for flipping you off for the arrogance and base stupidity of that statement. You just flamed a good number of people... as well as those who use e-mags/hypframed mags/devilmags or who are looking forward to an electronic mag.Originally Posted by Andrew Cunje
Not so fast my friend. He didn't say people that use them, he said 'indulge in them'.
That's a notable distinction.
Originally Posted by Brophog
So I decided not to make that distinction.
Lets face something that is a reality here though. This trigger is going to be a niche market, it is highly unlikely that this is going to "put the mag back on top". However good it is, however competetive it is there are still issues you will have to overcome (like eyes) that are going to be hard to convince people you don't need. Ramping is a coming thing, there may be resistance but I expect, in two years... its here. I could easily be wrong I know that.
Well. apparently ramping IS already here in a large degree. Try and find a DM4/5 on the PBN classifieds for sale that DOESN'T have a ramping chip in it. Trust me, I've tried. It's kinda scary really.I expect it will only get worse.Originally Posted by Lohman446
There's no reason that a mechanical trigger system can't ramp. In fact, it can. Controlling the ROF is the only obstical...unless a Mag ramping to 33BPS is ok. But that will be soon sorted out.
Ramp or bounce? I draw a distinction from SP style 15BPS Ramping to all out bounce and a lot less control on getting it to stop.Originally Posted by RRfireblade
Originally Posted by Lohman446
Defintely not bounce. We're talking a 'full auto' like situation after a certain reached ROF at Semi only. Basically,get it up to a certain ROF and it will jump to a higher preset ROF until you stop pulling the trigger. But that's still 'in the works' yet so the specifics may change when or if it becomes an available feature.
Originally Posted by RRfireblade
Now thats intriguing.
Vapor Works has their NXL chip which does just that, it'll go from semi (4-6bps or something similarly low) to full auto (15bps) after a relatively low ROF is achieved. Personally I believe that ramping is a far safer alternative to bouncing, if only for the fact that when you stop pulling the trigger, the gun stops shooting. Also the CFOA has weighed in on this topic and supposedly will be imposing an ROF limit of 15bps on their fields. As to exactly how they'll impose this, I don't know, but it's a sign that field owners are obviously interested in limiting ROF's on their fields (probably partially under the preasure of their insurance companies as well)
Looking at deadly winds site; is the hAir trigger dead? Its no longer listed in the products but it is mentioned on the main page and the video is still available. Hope to see something like it someday. Any info would be appreciated.
Read the first page in this thread.