Official Deadlywind hAir trigger update

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Don't forget the Sheridan Equalizer, as well as the Air Power Vector.

Wonder if Crosman likes someone patenting their intellectual property... you might be able to strike a deal with them, and have their weight to put behind this.

(Which brings the question.. does BE own the properties of the Vector from the Rainmaker patent?)

Just an idea Good luck either way.

I don't believe that the Vector patent is owned by Brass Eagle. The Rainmaker patent, however, lists a former Air Power employee as one of it's inventors. My assumption is that each patent was worded specicifically enough that they do not step on each others toes.
... And, uhh, I thought the Equalizer was just another Blowforward like the Mag/Badger/Armson Semi?

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

rant:on



I've been holding a few hundred dollars in my bank account for this very purpose. When nicad said the hAir was cancelled, I spent it on a new profiler, another barrel kit tip, and a couple of days skiing upcountry. Would I have been happier spending it on the hAir? Yes, the snow really sucked and I didn't really need a 10" tip. Would I have actually spent it on the hAir? In a heartbeat. Will I buy the pneumag trigger? Not at first.

You see, I've had prior experience with deadlywind's products - I bought a dallara body kit. It's well made. It's *beautiful*. It does what I expect. The price is high, but I'm a firm believer in paying for quality.

I've also had prior experience with pro-team products' stuff. I've owned and shot a stealth barrel, I was going to buy another one (or two, for a project mag). I've seen, used, and sold a lot of the f/x gear they make for tippmann's markers. I've used the warp feed adapter, I've mounted a few PTP warp feed kits to markers. The company as a whole leaves me with a good experience, but there's nothing stellar about it, nothing really stands out.

AGD gives me the warm fuzzies, DW gives me the warm fuzzies. Proteam doesn't, for whatever reason. So I'll support the companies in that way - I'd be one of the first in line to pay $500 for a hAir trigger from DW, or a hAir trigger from AGD, because I know neither Colin nor Tom would settle for anything less than high quality gear. I won't do that for proteam, because the blind fanatical trust hasn't settled in yet. Once I'm convinced that they are a company that produces an excellent product all of the time and will stand behind their stuff (not like they havn't in the past, but they've just been yet-another-company), and once I'm convinced that their pneumatic frame works and will be supported, then I'll buy one.


No offense PTP, but just look at the way the two frames are presented to us, the consumer. There's the DW hAir trigger, shown in a *well* *made* video, displaying the trigger action and it's rapid fire capabilities. Then there's the PTP autococker frame video, which isn't the best quality (I know, not a hype video, only had a digicam), which doesn't convey the same impression and is for the *autococker*. I know which one makes me want to buy the product now, and I know which one makes me go "meh".

I know autocockers are used more often than mags, I know it's a more "target-rich" market, and I know it makes no financial sense to develop a frame like this for a mag first. However, I own a mag, I have money, and I want a pneumatic frame for my marker. One of you two companies needs to work out all the little details, launch a hype campaign (again), and then make yourselves rich off of people like me. And you'd best do it soon, before I build my own darn pneumatic frame.

rant:off

First of all note that I didn't say ALL. I said most wouldn't. I agree with almost every point that you made about paying for quality and I didn't say Deadlywind or AGD ever put out crap. I said other products were hyped on AO and got a lot of "I'd buy that in a second!" posts. When the product was released, the sales weren't there........

[hitech]

One reason for a clause like that is keep someone for "infringing with no intent to sell",then they sell you a pair of grips for $200 and throw in a free grip frame.

An action such as that would create similar 'damages' as any more obvious infringments and therefore is not exempt from the Patents protections.

Sure, that would create damages. However, if someone made one and truely only used it themselves, what would "you" (i.e. the patent holder) be able to sure them for?

[hitech]

Not even Smart Parts would think about implementing a Gestapo to patrol paintball fields for guns that infringe a patent.

This is a theoretical discussion of what one COULD do, not necessarily what one WOULD (or even should) do. It was also only posed as a remedy for widespread copying of a patent. What would you do if say 20% of people showed up at a major tournament with "homemade" versions of your patented product?

[rabidchihauhau]

No more commentary.

[Timmee]

So what would happen if the person that owns the pneumatic Mag that Punisher made, tried to use it in a tourney (assuming what rabidchihauhau said was done, with scrutineers at the tourneys)? That 'Mag's trigger setup was made BEFORE PTP's filing date, but how would it be proven?

[RRfireblade]

That 'Mag's trigger setup was made BEFORE PTP's filing date, but how would it be proven?

Don't think it was. He also just bolted a Cocker front end (off the shelf parts) on a Mag.

This is a theoretical discussion of what one COULD do, not necessarily what one WOULD (or even should) do. It was also only posed as a remedy for widespread copying of a patent. What would you do if say 20% of people showed up at a major tournament with "homemade" versions of your patented product?

20 poeple? Hmm....Set my Alias on DB1 and smoke 'em all?

Let's seee this is Tourny ball right? Call Gino at NPS, make deal under the table and get Mechs outllawed for Tourny Play.

No wait, add an addition "non Battery" surcharge on all markers to be used.

AH...that would be dirty pool.....wait.....what were we taliking about?

Seriously, 'could" and 'would' are way different things. "Could" a cop give you a speeder for +2mph? Would he?

"Could" you file C&D and then file actions against 20 individuals at a rediculous cost to yourself with little or no potential gain? Would you?

[athomas]

I'm not a lawyer so I don't 100% know the correct answer to this, but I once read in a legal article that you could build anything for yourself and not interfer with the legal rights of the owner of a patent on the product you copied. As soon as you made the item for others, then you were infringing on the rights of the patent holder and could be charged.

To summarize, there is no way to stop a bunch of people from using a copied product. It is not illegal. It is illegal to copy the product for distribution. You can't make profit (even $0.00) off a copied item.

[hitech]

20 poeple?

20%, but the idea is the same.

Seriously, "could" and "would" are way different things. "Could" a cop give you a speeder for +2mph? Would he?

Yes, that was the point.

Also, and maybe I'm wrong, but I still think that the only thing you can sue a potential patent infringer for is damages. I don't think "they" can show any in a homemade, personal use only item. As an example, I don't believe PTP can recover any damages from DW for the existing hAir, nor can they get a judge to order it turned over to PTP.

[hitech]

As soon as you made the item for others, then you were infringing on the rights of the patent holder and could be charged.

As i understand it, when you do that the patent holder incures damages. The people you gave it to possibly would have purchased it had you not given it to them. However, and I'm far less sure of this, it possible that if you could PROVE that they would not have purchased it had you not give it to them, there may be no damages. Maybe...

[TheTramp]

The only way a patent holder could "seize" copies of the item is if they could demonstrate that the copies are intended for distribution. That includes giving them away free.

For example: Here in Boston 1000's of "phony" World Series t-shirts were ordered by the court to be destroyed because it was obvious that they were going to be distributed. The maker of the fakes couldn't even keep them for "personal use."

Now if they'd just made a few for their friends I don't think Major League Baseball would have bothered suing over it.

[Lohman446]

A patent holder can sue to have them "rendered useless" or confiscated. However it takes a court order to do so, and would be awfully expensive to do against someone who is using it for personal use. Can they, yes... does it ever happen, not really. But its kind of like the music thing, noone ever thought the record companies would go after individuals - they always had the right to, and they did. The fact with most individuals, even if the court awarded damages (which they could) collecting on that judgement is unlikely.

[Conversekidz]

I might have miss read something but I do not believe someone who holds a patent could go after a private person who makes something for their own use. Hence if we had pictures of the hAir trigger and the list of items use to construct it PTP couldn't do a thing about it.


If deadly winds really wants to sock it to PTP all they would have to do is tell people what they did to make the trigger. PTP could not stop them from the free exchange of information. For that matter someone should pull PTP's patten and just see what it is they pattented and show EVERYONE on AO the patented material so we can make our own triggers.

[CoolHand]

. . . . . For that matter someone should pull PTP's patten and just see what it is they pattented and show EVERYONE on AO the patented material so we can make our own triggers.

There you go ----> PTP's Patent (or one of them).

Take those techincal drawings and call me when you get one built.

[bunker17]

i guess youre having some fun giving them leads on this holy grail quest this si turning into

[Conversekidz]

There you go ----> PTP's Patent (or one of them).

Take those techincal drawings and call me when you get one built.

can't get the images to work :-\

[Glickman]

can't get the images to work :-\

me neither, seems like ther are in quicktime format?

[Conversekidz]

got it to work, had to download a plug in. I have a lot of reading to do on that now, but from the quick skim of it its talking about using magnets in a trigger....so does that mean PTP can ban all companies from using magnets in triggers.

[Automaggot68]

got it to work, had to download a plug in. I have a lot of reading to do on that now, but from the quick skim of it its talking about using magnets in a trigger....so does that mean PTP can ban all companies from using magnets in triggers.

God, you dont know a damn thing about anything, do you?

[Conversekidz]

God, you dont know a damn thing about anything, do you?

omg, don't you sense sarcasim.

[CoolHand]

i guess youre having some fun giving them leads on this holy grail quest this si turning into

Not really.

I was trying to politely point out the ignorance that is running rampant in this thread (and oh so many others). Namely that given the patent document, any fool could turn out a working pneu frame in a matter of hours.

Its rubbish. Plain and simple.

Most of the people begging for the drawings would still be trying to get the thing to work long after the year wait they expect out of PTP has come and gone. Not to mention that they would have spent a significant amount of money on such an undertaking (think multiples of how much the whole marker it's destined for is worth).

And people seem to think that $300 is too much for the frame itself. Its absolute insanity to think that you would build one yourself for even three times that number (unless you own a machine shop of your own, and have days worth of free time at your disposal).

I'm just calling a spade a spade.

Or in this case a joker . . . . . .

[CoolHand]

omg, don't you sense sarcasim.

Yeah Derek! You big doodie head!

He even used three (3) rolly laughing guys ( ) to help you get it.

Jeez . . .

[ScatterPlot]

So without me doing a lot of reading, is this patent for just magnets assisting a trigger? And I couldn't get the pics to work either, and my quicktime says that I already have the plugin . Anyone want to post up the pics on jayloo or something? I actually might like to make me one of these suckers. I'll get to reading on it later, but it's late now and I'm not in the mood for too much thinking.

[CoolHand]

So without me doing a lot of reading, is this patent for just magnets assisting a trigger? And I couldn't get the pics to work either, and my quicktime says that I already have the plugin . Anyone want to post up the pics on jayloo or something? I actually might like to make me one of these suckers. I'll get to reading on it later, but it's late now and I'm not in the mood for too much thinking.

You need a TIFF viewer, not Quicktime (why Windows thinks they are QT is beyond me).

When you read the patent, and see the drawings, you will understand why I posted the link in jest . . . . . . .

[Muzikman]

Those drawing as about as useful as a hole in the head.

I do love the broad "idea" this patent covers.

[rabidchihauhau]

N.c.

[Gunga]

And I couldn't get the pics to work either, and my quicktime says that I already have the plugin . Anyone want to post up the pics on jayloo or something? I actually might like to make me one of these suckers. I'll get to reading on it later, but it's late now and I'm not in the mood for too much thinking.

Install one of these plugins to view the patent images. You'll probably also have to adjust QuickTime's plug in/MIME settings via your QT control panel.

[athomas]

The only way a patent holder could "seize" copies of the item is if they could demonstrate that the copies are intended for distribution. That includes giving them away free.

Exactly.

The amount of items built would be taken into consideration. Any more than deemed to be able to be used by the builder would be considered to be built for distribution.

As i understand it, when you do that the patent holder incures damages. The people you gave it to possibly would have purchased it had you not given it to them.

I agree with you. I'm not sure on this one either, but I think that even an item given away for $0 is considered a distribution item that could have been purchased from the patent protected manufacturer.

[ScatterPlot]

Those drawing as about as useful as a hole in the head.

I have almost NO idea of what those pics are trying to convey.

[Lohman446]

What people don't seem to realize about this - which I have only glanced at the drawings and going off others, who know what there talkign about in this thread, words is that you are not going to make one at home.

Even if someone knowledgeable were to write step by step instructions in layman terms it would be very expensive to find someone with the machining capabilities to make one to the tolerances needed. And thats with good instructions so it takes no mechanical intuition about how to make it work, assuming everything goes as instructions, and various other factors that won't happen.

The fact of the matter is, maching the first of anything is almost always more expensive than machining the next few dozen, the cost of setting machines, training operators, screwing one up, etc.

There are a few people on these boards who might be able to make working homemade versions... very few