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Thread: Official Deadlywind hAir trigger update

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by krusty
    I have spoke with PTP specifically about the trigger for the mag & it is coming out in fact you will be able to buy it separate or get a micro with it on.
    Looks like I will be buying another Micromag. Thought they discontinued them though, I have always loved Micros, do you know if there will be a new version of it?
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT
    I dont understand the hate? How are the consumers getting screwed?
    Where do you see hate? I don't hate PTP.

    But if you block a product from coming out on the market because you have a similar product, you had better come out with that product soon or you are going to piss of a whole lot of customers.

    You people don't understand that the BUYERS control the market, not the manufacturers.

  3. #63
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    Did you even read what I wrote?

    I don't want PTP to not release their product, I WANT them to release it, ASAP. Reading comprehension is a useful skill. You learn it in grammar school.

  4. #64
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    I see it like this...

    caveman 1 and 2 make similar wheels using objects already in existance ie 3 ways and other nifty phenumatic tomfoolery. caveman 1's product is uber good yet caveman 2's is nice but his squad of meathead lawyers prevent the release of the ubersause wheel cause they know they will be depantsed in the free market economy. aka if ptp was willing to stand behind their product they would try and compete head on instead of cockblocking.

    so with that outta the way, enjoy your square wheels all, for im a whore for quality.

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  5. #65
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    Paintball has finally grown into a big enough industry that you will need to look out for your backside. If you have an idea, patent it and get it ready for market. It's a hard truth, but it's the truth like it or not.

  6. #66
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    I wonder if DW could make just the special valve for the gun, then somebody else like coolhand or someone could make the cylinders and install them for people, who could then put on their own reg
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  7. #67
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    you can't assemble an infringing product from non-infringing components without infringing on the patent.

    edweird - have you shot either system? If not, how can you state that one is 'uber' and one is not? (You may have shot the hAir, but I know you haven't shot the pneutrigger.)

    In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.
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  8. #68
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    Without getting all up in arms over who's right and whos wrong, I just have a couple things to say. You can take it at whatever value you see fit.

    Edweird was simply making a general statement. He and the rest of AFTICA(myself included) used DW's hAIR trigger at IAO last year, and it truely was awesome. Myself, and the others who have tried the hAIR, obviously have no point of comparison, but we can hope that PTP's version will be out soon and as reliable as the one DW has made.

    Which brings me back to Ed's comment, he may have hinted to the Pneutrigger being inferior, he was simply stating that he wants quality(as do all of us) and to be honest, i have seen more than a few PTP products with less than spectacular quality. Does this mean that the PTP trigger will suck? Not at all, its just a desire that the quality will be there if there is intent to hold a proven design for mags at bay.

    This is also the reason why there has been a letter writing campaign started, we aren't happy with the situation, but we are trying to accept and give PTP a chance to help those that wish to have a high ROF mech mag.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    1. the hAir was mechanically complicated; the Pneutrigger has MUCH better engineering
    2. the hAir was relatively expensive to manufacture; the Pneutrigger design took mfg into consideration and is easier/simpler to manufacture
    3. the hAir is a 'concept' design (let's see what we can do): the Pneutrigger was purpose-built to achieve a series of design goals, was approached in a phased manner and has many, many generations of development built into the idea. There were engineering requirements for things like safety, cross-platform application, etc., that were taken into consideration before the first screw was set.
    ..
    ..
    edweird - have you shot either system? If not, how can you state that one is 'uber' and one is not? (You may have shot the hAir, but I know you haven't shot the pneutrigger.)
    rabidchihauhau- There are 4 people outside of DW who know the insides of the hAir. You are not one of them. Please quit talking about how it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.
    ..
    ..
    I'm sorry if they and you think that they invented the damn thing first, but I am here to tell you that the genesis for PTP's work on the idea dates back to pre-2000 days and DW are not the only people in the world who are capable of inventing cool high-tec for paintball.
    this "idea"-- pneumatic triggers?
    Like the Southern Pneumatics Inc. "Phoenix" in 1992?
    Or The "Omega" in 1995? (known now as the Matrix).
    Bruce's "Nova 700" in 1997?
    Lee Kinney's (known as Punisher) “P-mag” in 1995?

    DW never claimed to have invented pneumatic triggers, we simply made one that works well.

    Are you still associated with PTP?
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  10. #70
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    Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau

    In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.
    ..
    ..
    I'm sorry if they and you think that they invented the damn thing first, but I am here to tell you that the genesis for PTP's work on the idea dates back to pre-2000 days and DW are not the only people in the world who are capable of inventing cool high-tec for paintball.



    since when were rams, valves and hoses high-tech?

    i've got an idea in my head about how the hAir Works, i'm not sure if its right or not, but i'd like to think it is, in my head, its reletively simpe and the technology has been around since the early 90's




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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicad
    rabidchihauhau- There are 4 people outside of DW who know the insides of the hAir. You are not one of them. Please quit talking about how it works.



    this "idea"-- pneumatic triggers?
    Like the Southern Pneumatics Inc. "Phoenix" in 1992?
    Or The "Omega" in 1995? (known now as the Matrix).
    Bruce's "Nova 700" in 1997?
    Lee Kinney's (known as Punisher) “P-mag” in 1995?

    DW never claimed to have invented pneumatic triggers, we simply made one that works well.

    Are you still associated with PTP?
    What about the Auto Cocker?

  12. #72
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    It is so sad to watch paintball deteriorate,
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  13. #73
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    I'm not 'up in arms' about this thing, but I am personally annoyed about it. Why?

    Here's why.

    PTP has spent YEARS being ripped off by other people. I can't even begin to tell you how much of what every player uses on a daily basis was originally designed and brought to market FIRST by PTP - only to have it copied, ripped off, etc., by other companies.

    During all of that time (15+ years in the industry) the company NEVER took retaliatory measures - they sucked it up and kept moving forward.

    Percentage wise, PTP has offered more support and aid to beginning teams and tournament series than just about anyone I can think of; among other things, it was one of the first, if not the first sponsor on board with institutions like the IAO, NPPL, the Memphis Indoor, Jax Warriors, Team Strange, etc. Often in circumstances where it could ill-afford those expenses, but it went ahead and did it anyway to support the industry and the players.

    PTP puts a LARGE percentage of its effort and dollars into safety - more so than the vast majority; they are in large part responsible for things like the goggle standards, the requirement for a trigger guard on all guns, standardizing the weight of paint and, again, making untold numbers of substantial contributions at their own time and expense.

    Then, after all of the foregoing, PTP had to face the reality that they could not continue to support such efforts without making some changes, one of which was to start investing in intellectual property protection for their concepts and designs.

    That, too, carried with it a tremendous investment in time and dollars; it was done the right way, with the intention of using it to protect PTP's investments and never done to 'do' other people.

    So far, PTP has engaged in numerous IP negotiations with other paintball companies - none of which have been seen by the public, none of which have raised an eyebrow or caused anyone to question PTP's motives - at least one of which contributed greatly to the the 'Automag cause'. (It was PTP's patent that become the E-Mag...)

    This thing, however, has gone way beyond all reason: people with little or no ability to be able to compare two products side-by-side making claims of superiority: people with little or no experience with business trying to tell PTP what to do with ITS dollars, time and resources: people with no knowledge of the history of this thing casting PTP in the role of 'bad guy': people with absolutely no knowledge of intellectual property law making snap judgements about PTP's motives.

    And why? two reasons. DW decided to hype their product (the future of which was not secured even for manufacturing by DW at the time) and a bunch of people decided to make them the 'good guys', for no apparent reason other than they were 'promising' to deliver something that would 'save' the automag. Even if you go back to DW's own postings on the subject, there was NEVER any guarantee of if or when it would be on the market.

    And the second reason? PTP's own reluctance to get on here and tell you all what has really happened behind the scenes. Its not anyone else's business but the parties involved. I can say, however, that PTP has entered into GOOD FAITH negotiations with anyone who was interested in pursuing such things.

    So yeah, I'm pissed off at the way these threads have gone. You all ought to be grateful that I'm not the one that owns the patent; I'm much more cut-throat than the folks at PTP (as in, they aren't cut-throat AT ALL.)

    I'm pissed at the way a company that I worked for for 7+ years is being portrayed, when I know from personal experience (and some degree of frustration) that PTP is anything BUT the kind of company some of you all have described it as, and it galls me on a daily basis to have to sift through the utter idiocy that I read in here. Talk about swallowing things hook, line AND sinker!

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.
    Um, Yeah, just because USA (America) developed a patent system and someone claims to have invented it first, doesn't mean that the other people inventing it "Re-Invented" anything.

    If you have one guy in Texas and another Guy in Australia and they both invent a pneumatic assisted beer drinking straw . The Texas guy walks down to the local patent office and the Australian guy never patents it. Does it meant that the Australian guys product is now only re-invented and not His Own original Idea? Or what about a Poor guy that invents something and a Rich dude pays some less than rich people to invent something for him. The Rich guy has the means to pay a team of patent lawyers to make up a Ironclad patent while the poor guy is lucky to afford the materials to make his first prototype and put a copy of the plans with a picture of it in a Dated Safety Deposit Box... Does that Mean that the poor guy re-invented the rich dudes product...

    If your going to Quote Voltaire then you should also try to open your eyes a bit...

  15. #75
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    and, Colin, no, I'm not still with PTP. If you have issues, they're with me, not them.

    I still stand by my invented statement. The things you mentioned were different designs and/or merely components.

    My statement about mechanical reliability and manufacturing issues was based on Mr. Kayes own assessment.

  16. #76
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    magaman,

    open your eyes: I'm talking about the invention as it relates to what PTP has a patent on.

    and your poor guy who invents something but can't afford to protect it is the way it used to be but isn't anymore. You can get protection for under $100.

    Besides, you're another one who doesn't understand IP; the guy in australia can get an australian patent issued; if he and the guy in texas both apply for international protection, THEN it comes down to priority date (who got there first).

    If there were NO patents, it would always be the big bad guy with money winning every time.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    If there were NO patents, it would always be the big bad guy with money winning every time.
    Even with them it still usually is. History is full of examples, all the way back to the Wright Brothers...


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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    and your poor guy who invents something but can't afford to protect it is the way it used to be but isn't anymore. You can get protection for under $100.

    I don't know where you got that number from. Let me tell you, no matter what, it's more expensive than $100 for a patent.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    magaman,

    open your eyes: I'm talking about the invention as it relates to what PTP has a patent on.

    and your poor guy who invents something but can't afford to protect it is the way it used to be but isn't anymore. You can get protection for under $100.

    Besides, you're another one who doesn't understand IP; the guy in australia can get an australian patent issued; if he and the guy in texas both apply for international protection, THEN it comes down to priority date (who got there first).

    If there were NO patents, it would always be the big bad guy with money winning every time.
    You missed my point, I'm saying that DW didn't reinvent anything. It's not like they went down to PTP and stole the prints, they made there own version as did PTP...

    I just hate it when people are blind to the fact that more than one person can invent something that is the same and just because someone got lucky enough to get there idea in the patent office first, it means that everyone else only re-invented the patented product...

    I say open your eyes because I hate it when people quote Voltaire, but never look at life thru Voltaires eyes, they only quote him and try to look open eyed. People need to look at the "Real World", not Corporate America.
    Last edited by Magaman; 01-03-2005 at 02:18 PM.

  20. #80
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    It double posted... Computer Freeze...

  21. #81
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    here is an idea

    i know this would be a long shot but hell froze over when tom quit anyway...so

    is it possible to sell the hair trigger to PTP so it will be released anyway
    i mean nicad can still do what he does best...er...assemble the frame for PTP
    it would only be a PTP frame but 99percent hair
    both parties would somehow benefit from it
    it would still be bought out by mag owners worldwide

    oh well...just my 2cents

    "You should buy my gun because I have 5000 posts that say I care."-AGD

  22. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanatic
    here is an idea

    i know this would be a long shot but hell froze over when tom quit anyway...so

    is it possible to sell the hair trigger to PTP so it will be released anyway
    i mean nicad can still do what he does best...er...assemble the frame for PTP
    it would only be a PTP frame but 99percent hair
    both parties would somehow benefit from it
    it would still be bought out by mag owners worldwide

    oh well...just my 2cents

    Well, that would be a odd way for a licensing agreement. It comes down to money, PTP got a little, DW does not. Now....If DW would sell the frame for say, $1000 each, I am sure they could afford to produce the frame and pay PTP the fee's they require.

    **The numbers are just pulled out of my head, I have no idea what PTP wants as a licensing fee, nor do I know that it costs DW to produce the frames.


    I am just shocked that for the long running relationshsip AGD had with PTP that a better agreement could not be reached.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzikman
    I am just shocked that for the long running relationshsip AGD had with PTP that a better agreement could not be reached.
    That has me scratching my head, too. I don't think that we've heard anything from AGD on this subject for quite some time, though. I hate to suggest it, but maybe an agreement was reached, just one that didn't involve Deadlywind.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by spantol
    That has me scratching my head, too. I don't think that we've heard anything from AGD on this subject for quite some time, though. I hate to suggest it, but maybe an agreement was reached, just one that didn't involve Deadlywind.

    Well, I do not know for sure, but I think AGD bailed on DW. I don't blame them, but I think an agreement would have been easier.

  25. #85
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    I think that you will find TKs relationship with PTP did pay off. They were looking into the hAIR trigger and I expect PTP at that point said something - it likely saved DW and AGD a lot of time getting down the details on soemthing that they may have not been able to produce.
    "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

  26. #86
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    muzikman - nope, I do it all the time. $100 bucks (filing fee and postage). I know this because I have filed numerous, numerous, numerous applications over the past several years. Several of those applications have resulted in grants. If you want to spend some time at the PTO's website, you can figure it out for yourself.

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  27. #87
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    magaman,

    I agree, it is possible for people to come up with the same idea independantly; what the heck does that have to do with Voltaire? (Who I read in college, btw. Quoting someone in a sig is usually done because the quote has something to do with the person, not necessarily what is contained in the body of any given message.)

    However, given the context of - PTP is WRONG-BAD-NAUGHTY and DW is GREAT-WONDERFUL-TERRIFIC, I have no qualms about exaggerating a little from the other side of the fence.

    This, however, was not a case of dual invention at different locations followed by a rush to the patent office, it was a case of one invention preceding another by a good many years, so I suppose that it would be most accurate to describe the situation as one of 'independent re-invention'.

    The folks who talk about 'what about this trigger', 'what about this gun' (all of which supposedly came before the PTP trigger) don't understand that while there may be seeming similarity in the invention's performance, the engineering is totally different, the purpose of the application was not just a pneumatic trigger switch and that all of the supposed 'prior' art has been extensively reviewed at this point by many different people, all of whom dropped the 'prior art' claim because they discovered what the PTO knows; the PTP trigger is a new piece of engineering, achieves its design goals in a unique manner and was worthy of a patent grant because there WAS NO prior art. In fact, the application was carefully written so that it would not cover prior art.

    If you want to figure out why - go read the application. Its publicly available. I can not, however, be held responsible for any lack of comprehension that might result.

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau
    muzikman - nope, I do it all the time. $100 bucks (filing fee and postage). I know this because I have filed numerous, numerous, numerous applications over the past several years. Several of those applications have resulted in grants. If you want to spend some time at the PTO's website, you can figure it out for yourself.

    Lohman - birdies tweeting in your ear?

    Show me where you can get a US Patent for $100. Even if you did EVERYTHING yourself, the filing fee alone is over $400.

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by krusty
    I have spoke with PTP specifically about the trigger for the mag & it is coming out in fact you will be able to buy it separate or get a micro with it on. The cocker will be first due to the fact that it was the first marker that they had tried it on. I started a thread a while back about it .
    You know, I speak with Jay Fireblade on a Daily basis, and even considering his posts on the original hAir trigger thread, you are full of BS.

  30. #90
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    Muzikman:

    I did not say an issued patent. here's what I did say:

    "I have filed numerous, numerous, numerous applications over the past several years."

    and, originally:

    "You can get protection for under $100"

    I'll not reveal my secret - even though its publicly available at www.uspto.gov. I'll let you figure it out for yourself.

    If you want to talk about getting a GRANT and the cost to see it through from application to granting, then even your 400 is too low an estimate: filing fees are based on the total number of claims as well as the number of independent claims and a few other factors as well (such as the kind of utility application, expedited, etc.) and you can expect, even when filing yourself, to pay several thousand dollars in application and publication fees, dollars for drawings, dollars for searching and, in the end, dollars for a patent attorney to clean up the mess you made yourself.

    But that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about a low cost system that was put specifically in place for the 'poor' inventor.

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