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Thread: My vert grip emag

  1. #1
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    My vert grip emag

    NOTE: Since I made this thread, the original pics and videos has been lost into cyberspace. Here are some new, as well as the blueprints I used (measurements in mm)

    Pictures and plans of the marker
    These plans describe how to mill a logic 1.0 vert frame to accept a hyperframe noid. All measurements are in mm.


    Edit again: Found the old pics and videos, and posted them on Jayloo. Now you can enjoy the thread in it's original glory as well.

    Sorry Trains Are Bad for the thread name ripoff It seems to be the season for electro conversions.

    I've just about finished my homemade electro conversion. I have a logic vert that I installed a hyperframe noid and a morlock into. The trigger has pre, post and actuation post adjustment. I don't have any trigger pull tension adjustment now, I just rely on the switch to return the trigger. The trigger feels rather good. Cudos to logic for making such a nice trigger, it has less side to side slop than many electros, so I don't have to bother with that. Some minor soldering and fitting of a on/off switch left, and it's all done.

    Now some craptastic webcam photos:







    And here's a short vid dry-firing. I'm not really that fast, and haven't done any tuning since I was short on air, but it works
    http://www.jayloo.com/videos/show_vid/2483.html
    Last edited by Joni; 04-28-2006 at 04:51 PM.


    ULE RT Custom

    Red ULE body
    ULT
    Electric Logic vert frame

  2. #2
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    That is sooooo rippin Joni!

    Great stuff, I know what you wilol be doin with my new vertframe
    Proud owner of #VV04026

    MY WORK - X-MAGs Around the World Are you one among the Lucky Ones? - [X-Mag EXCELS]

  3. #3
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    Very nice work, looks like a nice clean install too.

  4. #4
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    Would you recommend doing this to any one? and is it something that can be done easy?
    AIM: DiSoRdeR155
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  5. #5
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    That is really nice looking work! Great job!

    N.A.T.O.




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  6. #6
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    Logic and Rouge grip frams have LOTS of room in them.

    I was going to do the same thing but decided to go air. Air is more complicated and a lot more expensive but has better battery efficiency. Plus, it was easier to fit in the very small space in the ygrip. Mine has eyes too. So NYA!

    Your's is nice because you fit the battery in the grip, though mine doesn't bother me at all. Your way is also cheaper.

    Sweet vid. I sooo wish I had video capabilities

    You use the ULT right? What dwell, holdoff etc are you running?

  7. #7
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    I considered going the air route, like trains, but chickened out from the cost and complexity. So I'm impressed with his work. This actually wasnt very difficult, the only tricky part was mounting the noid, that's why I had to get some milling done to it. Since there is so much room, fitting the battery, tiny morlock and cap wasn't even a challenge.

    For the moment I have 10 ms dwell, and It's capped at 25 bps. That translates into a holdoff time of 30 ms, and it seems to be working allright. Haven't been able to do a lot of testing yet though.

    Thanks for all the nice comments.

  8. #8
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    does yours use ULT?

  9. #9
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    Yes. I doubt that it would work with the original on/off.

  10. #10
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    so if someone were to make one themselves what noid and capacitor would we need to pick up

  11. #11
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    Hyperframe noid and a 10000 uF 10 V cap

  12. #12
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    I happen to have a pancake solenoid and cap out of a Mako spyder frame, that I would be willing to part with.

  13. #13
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    pics are down, very interested to see this gun.
    my feedback
    countdown on devilmag day........ill let you now

  14. #14
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    I couldnt help but notice the five or so cases of paint you had in your room Hope you get to shoot it all with that fine piece of metal.

    N.A.T.O.

  15. #15
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    kind of curious, you said it didn't fire as fast as it could yet...is that because of the noid?

    Have you tried full auto on your morlock yet just to see what it cycles?

  16. #16
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    It doesn't fire as fast yet because the trigger wasn't properly set. Haven't tried full auto yet, since I don't have any air. I'm going to finish everything and start testing properly next week.

    BTW, that's my teammates room, and those paint cases are empty. Don't know why he keeps them . We have plenty of reballs though, so testing is not a problem

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantomhitman
    pics are down, very interested to see this gun.
    They are up, but you might have some trouble with me not using the standard http port on my webserver (stupid firewall on the doorm network). PM me your email adress if you want them

  18. #18
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    reballs?! ahh your in sweeden

    Still waiting for them in the US.

  19. #19
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    Thumbs up

    great conversion!

    good to see more people doing their own thing.

    get that thing runnin' and do some testing with it. see how high you can get the BPS with that ULT in there. I'm curious to know what it is. all my conversion and testing has been done with a classic valve. I've been able to get it to cycle without drop-off up to 20 cps with dwell at 30 msec. but, it will only properly shoot 16 bps in full auto. this is also using level 10, rt on/off, and no eyes.

    I'm curious to see what an x-valve can do with a lvl 10 and ULT in full auto.

    great job joni. tame those wires just a bit, and you will have a very tidy set-up!
    ~E~

  20. #20
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    I will report my results as soon as I get to do some serious testing. I suspect that the capacitor+battery combination is what will limit the ROF. I tested FA without air at 25 bps, and I could clearly hear the noid get more and more quiet. I think that short strings it will shoot rather fast, but FA will perhaps not be as fast.

    Those wires are quite a mess that is going to be resolved though. That was my initial test fitting, didn't want to end up with too short wires. And I just found out a good way to have adjustable trigger pull tension. It was a little on the light side (I shook the marker and it would shoot). Gonna have to do some work next week, but today there will be some new years partying.

  21. #21
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    One thing that will help (if you haven't already done it), is to set the stroke length of the plunger down close to it's minimum needed stroke. solenoids have more power, the shorter the stroke. just like a magnet has stronger pull when you get the metal closer to it.

    the sear should only be pushed so that the bolt catch part of it goes down just flush with the body. this is also about .130" of on/off pin travel, if it is easier to set-up with that measurement. you are probably pushing the sear in about the same place I am.

    now here's something that is very useful for battery life and quicker recharging of the cap:
    I have found, (through building direct solenoid actuated sear electro-cockers) that a bit of plunger "pre-travel" is VERY important. this will drastically reduce the inrush current draw, and create momentum and pre force build up so to speak. a long time ago, I made a solenoid valve out of a cocker 4-way and a tubular push type solenoid on the end of it. without pre-travel it sucked juice big time and barely worked for 10 shots in a row.
    with pre-travel, it performed like a champ, and increased my shot count up to about 2000. off the same battery!

    I think you will find that later on, both racegun and eclipse came to this same conclusion on their designs, that I did on mine.

    the only problem with pre-travel in your design will be the fact that the solenoid planger is a soft steel, and the sear is of course case hardened. the sear will eventually "mushroom" the tip of the plunger. a hard tip can be put on the end of the plunger with a bit of thinking,(perhps a set screw threaded into the end, that could be replaced if it showed signs of wear after time) and I think you will find that your max bps will increase, your battery life will drastically increase, and it will just plaing work more reliably.

    something to look into.

  22. #22
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    Thanks. I actually have some pre-travel on the noid, which was built in by accident. I was planning on removing it, but that would be a bad idea I guess. Thanks for the tip on sear over travel as well, I'm gonna have to look at that. You do really deserve your AO name

  23. #23
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    elect - do you think an eblade solenoid can trip a mag sear (with ULT to be safe) ?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skoad
    elect - do you think an eblade solenoid can trip a mag sear (with ULT to be safe) ?
    I'd bet definitely no on a stock mag sear. The electrician has made e-cockers before so he can tell you if it would work with the ULT kit.
    [AO-MA]

  25. #25
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    What I did to shorten sear overtravel is put a glob of JB weld on the top of the sear between the pivot and the thing that hits the on/off. I then filed it down to where the hook of the sear just dropped below the body.

    Quick and dirty, but effective.

  26. #26
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    well let's see

    I assume that the e-blade is generating about 20 ounces of forces. that's just a guess.

    now the ULT on/off can help, but I don't think you'll get the trigger pull down below 20 ounces on a mag with a ULT and a lvl 10.

    when using a lvl 10, your operating psi is about 470. so the pressure on the on/off pin is a bit more than with a standard bolt. but, the total needed force is a bit lower due to the lower force the bolt is pushing on against the sear with.

    anyway, the RT on/off accounts for about 1.9 lbs of the 4.4lbs it takes to operate my set-up. so that leaves about 2.5 lbs of force generated by the bolt.

    so no the e-blade could not "pull it off" so to speak as far as force goes.


    but the main reason why it wouldn't work is the stroke length. the e-dlade only needs 1mm of stroke to operate a cocker sear.
    A mag sear travel needs to be about 3.3mm. at that stroke, the e-blade solenoid would have very little power.

    I hope that explains it.


    trains are bad, and joni-

    a good "sear stop" is just a simple set screw through the back of the grip. about in line with the solenoid plunger on the opposite side of the sear.

    this will last longer than the JB weld method.

    another design that will last longer, but is a bit more complicated, is to put a steel "post" behind the sear. I used a stock autocoker timing rod coupler.

    with your design joni, it might be to your advantage to push the solenoid forward in the grip until the point where the plunger only push the sear the minimum travel length. this is the best set-up for direct solenoid applications. you will get the most power that way.

  27. #27
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    a good "sear stop" is just a simple set screw through the back of the grip. about in line with the solenoid plunger on the opposite side of the sear.
    I totally cut off the lever part of my sear though. My ram is in the way. You're right though. THat would be adjustable too.

  28. #28
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    debounce

    Hey do you have one of the newer predator code morlocks? What debounce are you running? I'm having trouble dialing out low ROF doubles without killing my speed. And half the time in FA the thing won't stop shooting. I have an omron d2f-l switch.

  29. #29
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    use a stiffer switch for sure, those are too light for e-mag conversions.

    debounce settings really only help with switch contact bounce, not the actual physical bouncing of the switch due to gun vibration.

    the lighter the switch, the more prone to mechanical bounce it is.

    these days everybody tries to use the lightest switch known to man, but it's really annoying in my opinion. how light does the trigger have to be?

    I ended up using an 80g switch. you could probably get a 50g to work though.

    it will make it easier to get control over the gun, yet it will still be very walkable.

    digikey.com is a good place to get electronics online, if you don't have some place you can get them locally.

  30. #30
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    D2F-L is advertised as an 80g switch. I can try increasing my magnet tension or trigger travel, but I know some electros that have hella light and short triggers with no bounce problems.

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