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Thread: E/X-Mag Microcontroller Programming (Atmel AT90S2313)

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTDragun
    is there anyway I could use a different soleniod and ult, kinda like dmags and use this software?
    As long as you use the stock board everything should work fine, but that's given you do the experimenting and find an acceptable solenoid yourself. If you manage to get it working with a different solenoid let me know what solenoid you're using cuz I've been thinking of trying to do that myself but haven't had the time.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTDragun
    is there anyway I could use a different soleniod and ult, kinda like dmags and use this software?

    I think the deviled Xmag still has the Emag noid.
    Check with Atachone.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11 Bravo
    I think the deviled Xmag still has the Emag noid.
    Check with Atachone.
    Yep, 11 Bravo is correct. There is no choice but to use the stock solenoid with the XMag.
    UTDragon, what are you wanting to change the noid in?

  4. #184
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    Using a 9v noid in an e/xmag is not totally out of the realm of possibility. I wouldnt be drop in though, I tell you that.

    You would need:
    ULT kit
    9 volt noid and a way to mount it, and connect it to the sear
    a board with software that allows control over the dwell


    I have been thinking about this for a while. My theory would be to replace the 18v stock noid with a 9v one in the same position. Then replace the noid plunger with a custom made one that can connect to the emag sear the same way as the stock noid.

    It would be alot of trouble, some machining, a bit of trial and error, and tons of luck.

    I am not sure if there really is an advantage to having a 9v noid over the stock 18v one. I dont think they are nearly as durable, and probably have the same cycle rate.

    Unless you can find me a solenoid that is 9vs and can cycle reliably at 30+ times/sec then its really pointless.

    However, there might be an advantage if you could find one that is 12vs, even if it can cycle at the same rates as the stock board. I would think off the top of my head that if you put a 12v regulator from the stock battery you MIGHT gain a tremendous amount of battery life.

    Then again, im just talking out of my butt.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil
    I am not sure if there really is an advantage to having a 9v noid over the stock 18v one. I dont think they are nearly as durable, and probably have the same cycle rate.

    Unless you can find me a solenoid that is 9vs and can cycle reliably at 30+ times/sec then its really pointless.
    i've been thinking of doing this too. my main motivation was that with the ULT, i can keep the mechanical mode and still be tourny legal... i think there should be an improvement in batt efficiency too i think. i didn't even know the stock emag solenoid had problems over 20fps until i read this thread...

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotsy
    i've been thinking of doing this too. my main motivation was that with the ULT, i can keep the mechanical mode and still be tourny legal... i think there should be an improvement in batt efficiency too i think. i didn't even know the stock emag solenoid had problems over 20fps until i read this thread...
    WEll, by problems AGD says it will 'chatter' over 25+ bps. To me, thats not a real problem, other than from a hype factor. (And hype is always good for sales).

  7. #187
    I think "chatter" = eaten sears and bolts. Tom has been real upfront at tech training that anything less than full lockup between the two will rapidly destroy both...

    -Calvin
    From a poster at PB Nation:

    ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

    MY FEEDBACK

  8. #188
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    Okay, so dont play at 25 bps. Problem solved.
    I think if someone shot me at 25 bps I would have to club them with my mag.

    My point is - that we are not going to be shooting at 25 bps so why worry about it?

  9. #189
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    Now here I am worrying about it. Not really, but I had a thought. Could this chattering at 26 bps be caused by what I was talking about earlier? The fact that we probably need to be able to control dwell and noid fire hold off? If these were adjustable it would probably eliminate the chattering.

  10. #190
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    found this old post from TK a few years back, about dwell time, though it might help when thinking about changing it. here's part of the post.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD
    ...if the code gets out everyone will be messing with it and the first thing they will do is shorten the solenoid on time to greatly extend their battery life. We do 30 ms (we must have changed it somewhere down the line) the hyperframe does 6 ms. If you do that you will chew up bolts, I have to replace them for free, the gun gets a bad rep, I ***** about the code changes, guys say mine is working fine your programers suck, we refuse to warrantee, EVERYONE is pissed off.
    AGD

  11. #191
    I think the issue is an esoteric one You've got a valve that is touted as being the fastest recharging in the industry - but essentially a marker that still relies on timing - and is hamstrung by that fact, to a certain extent invalidating the recharge of the system. If the timing is off (i.e. not enough time for the sear/bolt to lockup correctly) than the marker may not function and, according to the designer, eat it's self up. Some of the users here are interested in pushing the mag to its limits and I thought it important note that there is one. My understanding (although others like miscue could speak to it better) is that the marker requires that it shoot no faster than 20bps or it will start to come apart. (Mags with worn sears/bolts donít work real well) Some corroboration from others would be appreciated.

    FWIW, this is kinda like a discussion about horsepower, how much is enough? Enough to do what you want, or as much as can be squeezed out of a system? For some the answer is the former, for others the latter.

    -Calvin

  12. #192
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    That must pertain to the Hyperframe stock board. My Hyperframe with a Morlock is set at Dwell 29 ms.
    Anyway that shouldnt have anything to do with the Noid in an E or Xmag.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil
    Using a 9v noid in an e/xmag is not totally out of the realm of possibility. I wouldnt be drop in though, I tell you that.

    You would need:
    ULT kit
    9 volt noid and a way to mount it, and connect it to the sear
    a board with software that allows control over the dwell


    I have been thinking about this for a while. My theory would be to replace the 18v stock noid with a 9v one in the same position. Then replace the noid plunger with a custom made one that can connect to the emag sear the same way as the stock noid.

    It would be alot of trouble, some machining, a bit of trial and error, and tons of luck.
    If you really want to do this, I can show you were to buy the solenoid. It has the same basic attachment as the emag solenoid. As a matter of fact, it is built the same, just smaller. You will need to get someone to make you either a new square nut for the solenoid or a thread adapter. I'd bet luke here on AO can make it for you.

    You don't really need to adjust the dwell.

    The solenoid I'd suggest...

    http://www.solenoidcity.com/solenoi...r/s-10-50p1.htm




    _____________________________________________


    Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD src=http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/4161d9d6_207d/bc/Hosting/smiley_mini102.gif?BCXoKqCBtt.sMPGQ>
    Hitech is the man.... - Blennidae
    The only Hitech Lubricant


    Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
    Hitech is the man.... - Blennidae
    The only Hitech Lubricant

  14. #194
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    [QUOTE=hitech]If you really want to do this, I can show you were to buy the solenoid. It has the same basic attachment as the emag solenoid. As a matter of fact, it is built the same, just smaller. You will need to get someone to make you either a new square nut for the solenoid or a thread adapter. I'd bet luke here on AO can make it for you.

    You don't really need to adjust the dwell.

    The solenoid I'd suggest...

    http://www.solenoidcity.com/solenoi...r/s-10-50p1.htm


    The page you sent says: You are trying to reach a page that has moved or no longer exists.
    Please start from our Home Page. Can you please check that info? Thanks.

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  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitech


    hmmmmm... (rubs hands in gleafully evil manner)

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by cledford
    I think the issue is an esoteric one You've got a valve that is touted as being the fastest recharging in the industry - but essentially a marker that still relies on timing - and is hamstrung by that fact, to a certain extent invalidating the recharge of the system. If the timing is off (i.e. not enough time for the sear/bolt to lockup correctly) than the marker may not function and, according to the designer, eat it's self up. Some of the users here are interested in pushing the mag to its limits and I thought it important note that there is one. My understanding (although others like miscue could speak to it better) is that the marker requires that it shoot no faster than 20bps or it will start to come apart. (Mags with worn sears/bolts donít work real well) Some corroboration from others would be appreciated.

    FWIW, this is kinda like a discussion about horsepower, how much is enough? Enough to do what you want, or as much as can be squeezed out of a system? For some the answer is the former, for others the latter.

    -Calvin
    What happens is at high speeds the solenoid gets activated again before the plunger has made a full stroke. You can see the solenoid stutter. At what point this happens depends on the tank's recharge rate and output pressure, because that's what's pushing the on/off pin... forcing the plunger back into place. Higher input pressure = kicks the plunger back faster, but this isn't an ideal solution.

    This is an unofficial, non-AGD opinion on the solenoid dwell time... my personal opinion.

    1. How long the plunger stays in place is not the same thing as how long the solenoid was sent a signal (solenoid dwell). Why is this? Because the magnetic field that holds the plunger in place does not collapse instantaneously... or anywhere near it. If you've noticed, if you fire your gun (no air) and try to pull on the plunger... it's kind of stuck because of the residual magnetism.

    How strong is it and for how long? My answer is: An unscientific... pretty dang strong for much too long - which is the source of the FA problems... the solenoid's magnetic field interacting with a magnetically sensitive HES sensor. How I determined this? I spent many, many hours trying to figure out how long the field persists and roughly how strong it is (to gain clues on how to remove the FA problems).

    I did this by using the HES sensor. My control was... the max distance I could keep the HES sensor while the solenoid was fully powered... allowing the HES to detect the solenoid's field. I could estimate field strength in this way. If I remember correctly... the field is "very strong" for double digit milliseconds after the solenoid dwell time ends... and thus should continue to hold the plunger.

    2. The 30ms time concerns the level 7 bolt. The level 10 bolt is lighter and returns faster, needing a shorter dwell time. By how much, I don't think anyone knows.

    3. The Hyperframe solenoid and EMag solenoid do not operate in conjunction with the sear in the same way... and you cannot make a one-for-one comparison.

    4. Shortening the dwell time is the only software approach I can think of (besides a redesign of the EMag) so that you can have it all. The window of time that the solenoid is "noisy" does not overlap with when the HES is ready to accept trigger pulls... resulting in FA problems. Well... you could also limit the max ROF to somewhere under 20 as well, but you paintball nerds would frown upon this. The 20bps cap on my unreleased 4.20 is more a reflection of... that's what it took to get all the mathematics and timing to work out so the EMag doesn't go bonkers... not because of the plunger stuttering or anything physical like that.

    5. 3.2 has a dwell time that meets AGD specs. This timing allows 3.2 to accept trigger information while the solenoid is "noisy." Hence.. the known "3.2 FA bug." The flipping the wires fix reverses the polarity, and thus the logic... but does nothing to remove the noise issue. The HES is exposed to a N field instead of a S field (or vice-versa)... and has a different effect... This is pretty much a non-problem for 3.2... because of how it works... and is why the wire flipping works well. But unlike 3.2, this will be a problem for software that's "twitchy" or fires in some kind of burst mode while accepting buffered shots... sustained FA while the trigger is released can occur.
    Last edited by Miscue; 01-18-2006 at 07:16 PM.

  18. #198
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    Thumbs up

    Miscue ->great info. what dwell would you use for a LX bolt?(roughly)

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by latches109
    Miscue ->great info. what dwell would you use for a LX bolt?(roughly)
    I won't suggest a number.

    The only reason why I mentioned this stuff... is so that when someone works on their own software (such as Lorne and others)... that they take these sorts of things into consideration - and hopefully are very focused on making their software safe to use. That's very important to me.

    Hopefully... they will take a step back... instead of only thinking about all the "neat" features that they have in mind... and look at what's important.
    Last edited by Miscue; 01-18-2006 at 06:53 PM.

  20. #200
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    Talking I did it!

    Hey, Lornecash!!!

    I did it! My e-Mag is running 1.5 Beta now!!! After two days looking for a connector without any success and another two days idetifying each wire on the AVRSIP cable, I decided to adapt the factory jumper to make the cable needed to reflash my Mag. It took me two and a half hours to do that. I also had to undo that, taking MISO, MOSI and SCK out of it to update my AVRISP, before being able to do the reflash. Then I re-built it all over again, made the backup of my old AGD 1.31 software and finally reflashed my e-Mag with X-Mod 1.5 Beta. It's amazing how easy it is, once you have the connector done. I finished doing that yesterday, at 2:30 AM...

    Till now, the software is behaving exactly as expected and your manual is perfect!

    My first input on it is about the Practice mode... I tested it with both solenoid on and off. I realized that with the solenoid off, it updates the info (SPS) waaaay faster then with it on. Even so, it seems it's not "real time", as I stop pulling the trigger but the nunber on the disply doesn't come to zero. Maybe you have to ajust it a little better...

    Besides that, I'll play with it tonight and tomorrow I'll give you more input. I adjusted the Mag with PSP mode, 15 bps, 15 Dwell and 46 Fix. Is there any advice you would like to give me, regarding this?

    Thanks again for all your support and best regards,

    Mendel.

  21. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpsd
    Hey, Lornecash!!!
    It's amazing how easy it is, once you have the connector done.
    Like I've always said, It's much easier to just buy the Programmer from me but congrats for doing it on your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpsd
    My first input on it is about the Practice mode... I tested it with both solenoid on and off. I realized that with the solenoid off, it updates the info (SPS) waaaay faster then with it on. Even so, it seems it's not "real time", as I stop pulling the trigger but the nunber on the disply doesn't come to zero.
    It is intentional for the display to hold the value after you stop pulling the trigger. That way you can show your friend how fast you shoot. You'll also notice that if you pull the trigger really slow the min value is 4. That's just a functin of how I wrote the code. As for the speed If you have the FIX set to 0 it will seem much faster, this is due to the fact that Increasing the FIX decreases the window for a shot to be buffered. If the FIX is set to its max then shot buffering is completely eliminated and the gun will seem slower.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpsd
    Besides that, I'll play with it tonight and tomorrow I'll give you more input. I adjusted the Mag with PSP mode, 15 bps, 15 Dwell and 46 Fix. Is there any advice you would like to give me, regarding this?

    Thanks again for all your support and best regards,

    Mendel.
    Again, congrats on getting it to work and keep me posted as far as what you thoughts are. If you haven't already, read every word of the manual (rev0.3) I tried to explain everything in there.
    Last edited by LorneCash; 01-19-2006 at 06:59 AM.

  22. #202
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    Glad to see another one up and running! Make sure and give us updates. I cant wait to get it in mine.

  23. #203
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    The good news about this keeps getting better. I cant wait to get my hands on that programer and try this out. It will be great to have the ablility to flash the gun myself and not be at anyone elses mercy.

    Lorne, have there been any changes to the software or manual recently?

  24. #204
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    ^^^^^^^^^ I think Majinebz(?) did it with his. I would say check with him, but I think he got called in for a month or two of active duty. I know he can flash it back to 4.01 for you.
    Last edited by 11 Bravo; 01-19-2006 at 04:56 PM.

  25. #205
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    To answer someone from a few posts ago, My current software is BETA 1.5 and the manual is rev 0.3, if anyone wants a copy just send me an email (pniedfeldt@gmail.com) and request it. I've been busy the past couple weeks with work and stuff and haven't had any time to work on this project. Plus answering all the questions from AO people every day takes time too. I'm thinking of paying my brother to reply to all the people who ask me questions about the software and programmers, j/k. Keep the questions comming, I knew what I was getting into when I started this. Hopefully I'll have some more time either this weekend or next weekend to make a few minor improvements, but really it's pretty much done.
    Last edited by LorneCash; 11-11-2007 at 02:46 AM.

  26. #206
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    Great job and I'm very proud to see someone step up and do something like this. I have some family near Milwaukee and If I get a chance to go up there Ill congratulate you myself
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  27. #207

    Question

    Hello,

    as a programmer, is it possible to use this cable :
    https://home.comcast.net/~blackxknight/ecs/cable.html ? MOSI, MISO, SCK are connected so it should work, no? It's much cheaper than an "official" programmer and it works for impulse, so for an emag... ??? If so, how is wired the emag board?

    Best regards,
    Gilles

  28. #208
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    If the cable is for an AVR programmer for AVR programming, which it looks like, then it should work fine.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  29. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by teps
    Hello,

    as a programmer, is it possible to use this cable :
    https://home.comcast.net/~blackxknight/ecs/cable.html ? MOSI, MISO, SCK are connected so it should work, no? It's much cheaper than an "official" programmer and it works for impulse, so for an emag... ??? If so, how is wired the emag board?

    Best regards,
    Gilles
    If you're asking if all the correct connections are there then yes, they are. I'm not sure If non Atmel programmers will work though because the one AGD has is some other brand and it won't flash my software because it says the file is too big for the specified device. Also the trick isn't getting the correct wires its the crimps on the end that actually connect to the Mag. Even if the wires are correct and will work, unless you have a way to put them on the correct pins on the E/X-Mag board It still won't work. That's really the hard part. I bought the crimping tool for $250 and managed to find where to buy the correct connectors for the Mag board, so if you want to do that you're more then welcome, but seriously I'll save you the trouble for a small fee in comparison to the money and time it would take you.

  30. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by LorneCash
    If you're asking if all the correct connections are there then yes, they are. I'm not sure If non Atmel programmers will work though because the one AGD has is some other brand and it won't flash my software because it says the file is too big for the specified device. Also the trick isn't getting the correct wires its the crimps on the end that actually connect to the Mag. Even if the wires are correct and will work, unless you have a way to put them on the correct pins on the E/X-Mag board It still won't work. That's really the hard part. I bought the crimping tool for $250 and managed to find where to buy the correct connectors for the Mag board, so if you want to do that you're more then welcome, but seriously I'll save you the trouble for a small fee in comparison to the money and time it would take you.
    Believe me, if you are in the States or another country where it's easy to import from the US, then you should buy it from Lornecash. As I'm in Brazil, I had to do it myself and it was a real pain in the A$$ to do the cable myself... But once I managed to do it, men... It's really easy to reflash the mag board.

    Just to update you, I had a real heavy rain last Tuesday, when I was going to play with it for the first time (we had a 170Km traffice jam , did you ever see it on your city?) so I'll probably test it today.

    Regards,

    Mendel.

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