New triggerframe? Ugh. Now that looks tuff.
New triggerframe? Ugh. Now that looks tuff.
I think your concept of mask clearance is spot on. One of the reasons I'm able to use my Simmons scope so well is that I can move the marker across my front (left, center, and right) and still maintain sight picture. While the stock looks more traditional, I've never used one and I'm not sure I can retain the same shooting positions.
Here's a picture of me shooting from the side. I think this picture illustrates how the bottle becomes my stock and in combination with a nice drop forward and a slide on sight-rail I get very good eye alignment.
For reference, this is a classic, with a 12" J&J ceramic. sight-rail and Simmons 30mm Red-dot. It's a VERY small setup. I actually have a Q-loader system but I haven't set it up yet. I'm lazy!
By placing the Q-loader beneath the barrel the only thing I would have to change is my front hand position. The length of (or lack of) the drop forward allows shooters to adjust how far back or forward they'd want the marker to sit.
As for stock adaptors, I think the ones that connect to the rail and the trigger frame look great and offer, I think, much better durability.
Last edited by Severe; 01-21-2006 at 07:01 AM.
Lvl X TKO Automag PF/HL, Intelliframe, a Simmons 30mm Red Dot and a J&J 12" Ceramic barrel.
Die Hard Woods Player
you guys were onto something with the intigrated grip/q loader addaptor, with a classic valve, you couldnt sell those quick enough
So it is agreed no matter what we design is should be based around spec ops stocks. but keep in mind you have a lot of guys who have tac ones and don't want to shell out extra money for a warp frame any solutions? agd should make a tac one warp feed body.
BACK IN THE GAME.
I agree we should focus on using spec ops stocks, as milling a gas thru might end up becoming more work and expense then just buying one pre-made. If a person were to mill their own stock, then we could just use the same port, or connection point to leave people with the option. So, thats settles that, unless anyone else has anything else to contribute on that topic?
Aslo, should we decide on the fact that we are indeed leaning towards the Qloader as opposed to the warp?
Also, excellent pic severe. That really shows the pose and level of comfort we wanna go for. I am also pretty stoked you are running a classic, and a J and J. Thats a nice tight, and inexpensive yet very effective setup. I would like that to be the starting point for our marker setup personally, cept with a 14 inch J and J. A least that is what I am going to be buying in the next lil while.
That classic rail is so easy to milt thru and design around. No matter how a person upgrades the concept rifle we are designing, I feel we should be basing it around the classic rail.
I will get back to the ops stocks and q loader grip later tonite. Im gonna watch the fights at the local ripper bar. My friends are gonna poo when I tell them how much fun I am having helping design a paintball marker.
I really think that a qloader is a better base for the design that you are going for, it is much more streamline and goes better with the weighting for the marker
Kay. Lets break it down...
The AGD over the Black Cell Ion has:
- a narrow and shorter profile
- lower head position when firing, making for a smaller target
- warp feed right frame allows for a sleek shape, and no long Q loader tubes sticking out
- A longer more complete focal plane across the top of the marker for better intuative aiming and hip shooting
- No air macro lines messing up the bottom of the marker
- A tighter Q loader position, allowing a good look with a shorter barrel length
- a nice grip over the Q loader housing
- a safer and more durable Q loader setup
- Needs three peices to be milled to be a complete package (Q shroud, top shroud and stock adapter)
what it lacks is:
- a foregrip to take the weight off the Q loader (tho the tighter set up does this a little)
- without a vert feed, the marker HAS to be Q fed. No backup plans if Qloader breaks.
- more stuff that I am just not thinking of now
All in all, I like the mag more. Id WAY rather be playing with that mag as opposed to that Ion anyday. The lynchpin is the milling. How much would it be to get those three peices made, and how? If that peice falls into place, this marker becomes a reality.
I hope it does materialize, cuz I wanna play with one!
Actually, one could go powerfeed, and tilt the powerfeed down to be fed into the Q Loader tube that way. This is how it is usually done. All one has to do is get a sight mount, or riser, and perhaps a new adapter so the stock fits a little higher. The stock does look a little low when it isnt changed, tho it might still feel better lower.
And this one is in black, to show the difference.
Again, who knows what feels/fits better until a mock up is tried on for size. Anyone wanna get their Automag and cut some cardboard or wood and try these stocks and shapes out?
I can now clearly see why that JCS stock is so popular. It really does allow for that tight posture. As we can see, our stock does not suit this posture as well as a bottle does. In this pose, a bottle is the stock, and does a pretty dang good job of it.
I am sure the stock will work tho, just not in this tight firing position.... the problem is that this is one of the best firing positions in paintball. I am thinking that our design may want to lend more towards this style of firing position.
something like this would feel better. not nearly as cool lookin tho. comfort should come before looks if the two come to heads however.
maybe we wont have a problen with the higher stock after all, and wont have to worry about total mask clearance?
NO ONE IS POSTING PICS! I wish they would. It would help clear up SO many questions I have about mask clearance. Any probbing people could do to bump that thread would be great. Maybe post some pics of this marker on that thread, and generate some more interest that way?Originally Posted by LONEWOLFOO1
EDIT: Oops, just clicked the link and noticed that Lonewolf did an excellent job of this just recently. Thanks man.
Last edited by famousgamer; 01-22-2006 at 03:49 AM.
for comparison purposes. I bet is we were to put the Longbow air thru on that ADG marker, with that mid level stock adapter, the size would be bang on. Ill try one tommorow.
Keep this in mind that there is some hieght on the longbow shroud if you do have a tac one not a warp feed body all you need to order is the shroud kit. i order the whole kit and it should be here in a couple of days. but on thing for sure we should implement the spec ops air thru stock to keep parts cost down.
so order the stock only i think thats 80 bucks
and all we need to make is a adaper for it.
or order the jcs but i like the air thru stocks it does'nt expose the air line as much.
The one thing the scenario houses haven't figured out yet is there is no such thing as stock weld when it comes to paintball. Masks don't allow it. For those of you who aren't familiar with the term, when teaching shooting techniques, stick weld is the connection point between the shooters cheek/face and the stock that allows for weapon control and good sight picture/sight alignment.
I would hate to recommend re-inventing the wagon wheel but if the SpecOps stock was flipped it would allow for the same shoulder support while allowing the shooters mask more room behind the marker. The catch is, this would require a lower mounting point which shouldn't be a problem is you went with the style that connects to the rail and trigger frame.
I just have a few quesitons. My first question is, with all of this stuff you are doing, where in the name of all holy are you going to put a remote hook-up? Also, how are you going to open the marker for fixes, cleaning, and repair. From the pictured I have seen, you guys have a lot of screws to worry about. Second off, why not just use a tank? I mean come on, you already have it, its cheap, its a bit heavy (but easy to get used to), and it gives perfect sight clearance. Also, do any of you understand the point of the Black Cell ION kit? I dont mean to get you all POed, but your missing the point. The ION kit is for much more that just a "sniper" role. Its trying to get more high end markers into woodsball/scenario types of play. People at Special Ops get upset because they cant put a stock on X marker, and now Special Ops is looking into a way to do it. I have no idea where any of you get that they dont have enough clearance. I own their A-5 SAW stock, and all I need for clearance is about an inch raise. The longbow and blackcell have plenty of clearance. And you talk about the responce issue of an X-Valve, and how you have to shoot fast for consistancy. If you read the (RT Pro/Tac-One) manual this isnt true. The best range of psi inputs is 750-850 psi. At high (850 psi) input, it is more consistant to shoot fast. This is for faster shooters, and would be great for speedball. At medium (800 psi input) input, its about in the middle, and you can shoot very consistantly at both slow shots and fast shots. It describes it as "for the player who combines rapid firing with an occasional sniper shot". At low (750 psi) inputs, your first shots are more consistant each time. This is said to"benefit a sniper with consistent slow shots". So now if you figure this, you could just pop a regulater on it for about $70. This would let you adjust the velocity down to 750 psi. Or you could just buy an old Classic Valve w/ a lvl 7 bolt. If you got the classic valve, you could even get a 12 gram adapter, and run the marker off of 12 grams. Then, you wouldn't even need a heavy tank or a remote.
Access to the valve has not changed throughout these concepts. It's still retained by the single screw, so gaining access to the valve is as simple as removing the single screw. Once the valve is off, you can clean pretty much everything you need.
Everything else that has been discussed is simply cosmetics. Sure, there are screws to attach these bodies to the existing rail and body but nothing that changes the underlying marker.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "tank". Are you talking about C02/HPA tank or something else? I think the idea here is to allow the shooter to use either a stock OR a directly mounted bottle.
The Black Cell Ion, like every other mil-sim/tactical kit/marker coming out is just a manufactures attempt to capitalize on the sudden interest in these style markers. This is just my opinion, but I think the Ion is a very poor choice for a scenario marker platform. Besides, we're on AO. We want a mag platform!
X-valve vs. Classic valve: I currently own both and I can tell you that the Classic has better shot to shot consistency. The X-valve is geared more towards providing a volume of fire and, YES, it's a known fact that the consistency changes on the X-valve/RT/Emag valves based on the shot string. That's why there's a specific method to how those valves have to be chrono'ed. Also, most players are not going to have adjustable HPA systems. Additionally, the ability of classic valves to run on C02 makes them more appealing to the masses. I'm not going to touch the comment on putting a regulator on a mag.
Anyway, the valve part is strictly up to the shooter. I think these concepts are geared towards retro fitting current mags to be more mil-sim/scenario based.
Originally Posted by Severe
By tank I do mean a CO2 or N2 bottle. You know, its just as easy to put a tank on your shoulder and call it a stock.
As far as the Black Cell ION, thats not why they made it. I go to Special Op's forum more than I go here. As far as a mag platform, thats what a Tac-One is isn't is? Yet you claim it doesn't have enough sight clearance...
As far as putting a regulater on a Mag, why would that be a problem? I mean sure, you are just killing your recharge rate, but if your going to set it down to 750 psi input and play as a "sniper", one shot one kill right? You dont need speed, and therefor it doesn't really matter, unless I am missing something. If I am missing something, would you be kind enough to inform me instead of insisting on saying that your "not going to touch the comment"? I, as a human beeing, am just trying to make sence of why it really matters to you what Special Ops does, and why everybody is set to "beat them". Its almost like if your not beating Spec Ops, then you dont matter in this world, or atleast thats how many make it seem.
BTW: Not all need an adjusteable tank, as some are preset to 800psi output. With 800psi input, the X-Valve is good for rapid fire and slow shots, so theoretically it should be well rounded velocity wise.
Also: I would just like to let you know that I am not trying to put down your idea. Your idea is great, and its all about what you are personally comforteable with. I respect that you want to make your own stuff. My intentions are to post my ideas, and then hear your idea of my idea, and to learn from it. I really dont know a lot about automags, for I am new to them, but I would like to learn. If this is not the place to do so, please PM me.
Last edited by NinjaoftheNight79; 01-22-2006 at 03:45 PM. Reason: Add on
I personally would like to keep my tank/bottle as my stock. I like a self contained rig and I'm not sure a remote would go well with how I like to play. I think right now the idea is to have the stock mount be an option.
The Tac-One works well for sight clearance depending on it's setup. However, having the off-set scope isn't necessary if you have a warp-feed body. I think that is the underlying theme here. I love my Tac-One but I typically play with my Classic if I'm looking for first shot consistency. Frankly the speed isn't that big deal for me; both shoot as fast as I can pull the trigger.
I suppose if you wanted to regulate down to 750psi a regulator wouldn't be horrible, but from everything I've read on AO, it's generally considered a bad practice to put a reg on a mag. A good flow, preset bottle is all she needs to sing.
I'll also throw out an apology. If I came across as abrasive, sorry, that was not my intention.
What I meant when I said about the Tac-One and sight clearance, I was getting back to the Longbow being mag based, and reviewed to have great sight clearance.Originally Posted by Severe
As far as an apology, I accept. Many people think I am trying to contradict them, and I see why.
Well, it is nice indeed to see a measure of passion come into the thread
You guys got good points. I tend to agreed with Severe, expecially on the points of the classic valve, and the stock as an option. The Classic Mag is the ultimate high performance low end marker, and its price is so low for what you get. This is an excellent starting point for our concept. The Tac One also has to be involved in this design, for peope who already own them, but as a ground up concept I am going to work with the Classic mainly.
The Longbow and Black Cell sniper will simply not feel as good to handle on the feild as any marker will full mask clearance behind the marker. Its an obvious truth that people are afraid to admit, even after looking at hundreds of poses of people firing their paintball markers in the same way. It is no wonder why bottles/tanks are the popular choice for a stock, cuz they are in the right place.
I really want to use Spec Ops stocks as a stock option, as long as we can put them in their proper place. Our paintball is not going to look like a real gun or be arranged like a real gun, because it is never going to be shot like a real gun unless in your backyard unmasked (and unsafe). We are going to combine the best of both worlds. It is a nod of respect to Spec Ops and AGD this way as well. I do not respect the Longbow or Black Cell Ion however.
Also, the shroud on the Qloader, and top of the marker is simply cosmetic. They really are there for looks right now, and represents the final optional phase of the design/construction. I will post some "naked" designs soon, so we can see how they look.
That stock idea is great severe. That design would make for WAY better clearance. I am going to experiment with the Dogleg stock, and repositioning a few of the Spec Ops stocks.
And if we were gonna do a dogleg, we may as well build them, cuz those are dang easy to build. Bent sheet aluminium. Very doable.
I agree. It is going to be nice when you get that kit. You will propell this design into its next phase with pics and information that we cannot seem to get on the Spec Ops site from people who already have owned that marker setup for months.Originally Posted by LONEWOLFOO1
There are a few things I would like to say. First off, to make your Classic Mag theory even better, many people consider it a high end marker. You say low end, but even PBReview labels it a High End Mech. I believe it is because it still has a more advanced (yet still simple) valve system, as opposed to the average low end blowback.Originally Posted by famousgamer
As far as the Longbow not giving as much clearance as a tank, it is not supposed to. It is meant to be handled and aimed as though it was a rifle. It will, when shot like that, give plenty of mask clearance. I truely do respect your idea, but I do think the Longbow and Blackcell projects deserve a bit more respect. They do exactly what the marker upgrades were intended to do. I just really would like to see more respect for their work, as I know for a fact that they would respect yours.
Thats an interesting point Ninja. Actually, if it was not for Spec Ops making stocks and add-ons in the first place, I probably would not be as interested in this project. Their air thru stuff is ground breaking to a degree, and their commitment to bringing woodsball into the future is admirable. So... I guess in that case I do respect them indeed.
I just think that the Longbow and Black Cell are a little more marketing, and a little less functionality. I want to inject a measure of usefullness to our marker setup, so paintball stalkers out there can enjoy some of the benifits of marker comfort, feild of view and ADG quality while still have a cool marker they can be proud to own.
And that is a very good idea. While Special Ops motto is "Mods that Make Sence" and many of their mods are very practical, you are looking into a more advanced style. Special Ops ussually tries to stay pretty traditional as far as stocks. Their idea is to make a balanced stock that lets the stock roll to the shoulder just like a real stock, and add some cool features, such as air-through. What you are pretty much doing is making an scenario looking upgrade that looks cool, and replaces the tank with something lighter, yet just as functional. Its kinda a more unique style than anything. I truely respect that. Its a really cool idea. I do wish you much luck with this project. Its starting to look really cool, and has good functions. Personally, I think you are doing really good with this.Originally Posted by famousgamer
kinda a cheapo version, if we cant get milling done. The backup plan kinda.
i've watched this thread on and off, very cool ideas. Getting pretty close to the project I currently am working on. If I can dig through the thread and find what template you guys are using for your setups, I'll see if I can modify it to what I'm doing right now.
I'd have real photos of phase 1 but I ran into a couple nasty problems, along with a busted dremel. Right now I need to figure out an easy way to attach the body to the rail (had to cut off the original way from the understide of the body) and it seems I also need to move the trigger pin forward about 1/8-1/4" and hope I can rig the sear.
Ok here is what I'm working on currently (or have in mind). I wanted to make a nice milsim gun where theres no real visible hopper, no real visible tank or remote line....so this is what I came up with in my mind.
The Q-loader actually feeds in from the bottom. I moved the gripfame back as far as I could, knocked the powerfeed tube off of a stainless body (much cheaper than a ule :P), drilled a hole in the bottom of the body and rail to feed the paintballs up into. In doing this there are NO SIDE TUBES hanging off the side of the gun, it just feeds directly up. The only non-symmetric thing will be the hose traveling 3-4 inches from the valve to the asa on the stock.
This works perfectly with a stainless body because of the twist lock barrel....the barrel actually IS the breech, so I don't have to worry about sealing up the top hole (may get to it later with some bondo).
RAP makes nice butstocks in which you can *hide* a tank, also the buttstock is extendable along that bottom rail. (stocks seen here) My only real problem is the amount of air is minimal. The nice retractable stock can only hold at max a 3oz co2 tank. I was thinking about buying one of the stocks in hopes of being able to fit a 2 inch diameter tank inside of it after some customizing....if I AM able to get a 2inch diameter tank in (3oz is 1.5inch so need to get an extra 1/2") I'll be able to use 7/9oz co2 or even the 13/22cu 3000psi hpa tanks which would help with air.
Meh, it was an idea that was kicking around in my head for a long time and just had to actually start trying it before it drove me crazy. Right now I've got to modify the sear/trigger a bit and I should be good as far as the qloader mounting. I originally wanted to mount this all in an ar-15 type shell (either real or airsoft). Also the Qloader would be *disguised* as a m203 launcher....or maybe just painted/airbrushed to look the part.
This was another idea I had. Qloader pods and socket would need some modification but I believe it would be fairly easy to get them to feed out of the TOP of the pod (the top of the end cap). If I could do that I could add a little magazine area with a hole drilled in the front for a tube to go into, then make a 90* turn and feed up into the breech. The opaque area would be inside the magazine section.
Add some cosmetic cover-ups along with scopes and whathaveyou and its pretty ar15ish.
Last edited by Skoad; 01-23-2006 at 07:20 AM.
A few things:
1.) Is the stock carbonfiber frame the same height as the intelliframe?
If not, you may want to have a small adapter plate for those people who already have and/or want to use the intelliframe.
2.) In this picture from above:
You see how much his wrist is bent in that position, this is why we have the yframe...
On normal rifles, 45* frames make sense because the stock is inline with the gun, making the gun longer, like on the longbow.
If we are trying to design a Tactical Mag around the tighter shooting stance pictured, we might want to re-consider the yframe concept. It was designed for a tight stance, and it definately would be more comfortable than a 45* frame.
depending on how tight of a design we want, a vert frame may be better than a yframe. Maybe even a zframe would work, who knows.
3.) Have you considered the apex barrel?
It would be a nice accessory if a ULE body is used. (cocker threaded) Although it may be a little short and might interfere with the placement/asthetics of the qloader.
maybe if the apex tip was modded onto a 14"/16" (however long is right with the qloader) J&J barrel like here: http://www.mcarterbrown.com/cgi-bin/...play&num=25262
Last edited by FinchMan; 01-24-2006 at 01:24 AM.
If this thread was not geared toward Scenario/Woodsball, I'd agree that the Y frame would be a good thing to model after. But IMO the Y frame does not lend itself to a proper carrying position ("patrol ready") when participating in scenario play where part of the game is stalking from one area to the next. The Y also goes against the whole tactical theme as well.Originally Posted by FinchMan
IMO - we should not compare the drawings with rifles - but instead draw comparisons to a small "personal Defense Weapon" such as an MP5 style subgun from HK.
In that respect, you would position your wrist as pictured when using the most of close cover.
Another thing to consider is the length and drop of the drop-forward will change your wrist position. In the above picture, I'm using a VERY long drop-forward, I'm also using part of that large pine for cover and keeping my elbows in tight.
Shooters can change there setup easily by opting for a zero-drop or shorter drop-forward. And there's always the option for the shooter to use a stock. While the Y and Z frames are good for comfort they aren't very practical for any position other than upright. A change to the bottle mount will definitely impact hand and wrist position.
For what's it worth, I'm using an Intelliframe in that picture. My shooting style has me using my index finger on the body of the mag and my thumb under the rear of the trigger frame. I pull/fan the trigger with my middle finder and the rest float. I'm not using a full grip on the frame. Most of the support for the marker is in my right hand and the bottle in my shoulder.
Skoad, That's a very interesting mod you're working on. I'll be interested in seeing how it evolves. Are you going to put any type of optic on it? If so, how tall of a riser are you planning on using to get adequate mask clearance?
Excellent points, and intersting things to consider.
Amazing work Skoad. I cant wait to see how it evolves. Your knowledge of the inner working of the mag is impressive, and you are trully pioneering a first. Well done.
I am going ot have to find out is the intelliframe is in fact the same height as the carbon fiber single trigger frame. That would indeed affect the stock adapters.
I read a bit on the Apex. Sounds pretty good IMO. I fugured, if anyone wanted ot use it with the Q loader you can just add a little fitted PVC tube, and paint the whole thing black. People make homemade "silencers" like this, and most of them look excellent. You would just cut it so you could reach the ramping controls. Very easy mod, and looks nice.
Personally, I might be inclined ot put a slightly smaller tube inside the larger outside tube, fill the difference with foam or gauze, and bore holes in the inner tube to displace the discharged gas. This might make it quiter... or so I have read. If people ask, its a dust cover.
Personally, I love the vert type frames. They are not all that expensive either. I am going to ride out the usage of the classic mag/valve/rail for as long as I can tho. After I have exhausted all variations on this marker, I feel I will move up as I personally upgrade my own classic marker.
There is lots more to discuss, but I am gonna sleep for now. Ill leave yawl with a few pics of what I was thinkin about...