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Thread: Tactical Automag prototype thread. Please help.

  1. #391
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    Just to chime in here.

    famousgamer, one thing that appears to be getting over looked in this on-going discussion is not so much the stock position but the relative height of the center of the sighting optic that is being used as it relates to the stock.

    In this picture...



    The two sights are different, which impacts how the shooter would have to view it. Specifically, the one with the left, the sight doesn't appear to be mounted but rather just sitting on the top of the marker. I don't see a rail for the scope to attach to, however, I could be wrong. Either way, it's a lower mount.

    The picture of Spec.Ops is definitely sitting higher and thus his head position is different.

    So it's an unfair comparison if you ask me.

    This discussion is completely ignoring the fact that tilting your head is typically needed when using firearms; it's called stock weld, to get proper eye alignment. But again, if the optics are higher, so is your head position. Unless you can get directly behind the marker, like your bottom four examples, there WILL be some head tilt. If you want to reduce the amount of head tilt simply increase the mounting height of your optics as they relate to your stock.

    **edit**
    Side question for who ever took the picture of the guy on the left. Is he really left handed? I couldn't put my finger on but after looking at the picture for a couple of minutes it dawned on me his head position looks very odd. He has his left eye WAY behind his right. That makes me think he's right-eye dominate and just holding the marker left handed. That alone would account for the horrible head position.
    Last edited by Severe; 03-26-2006 at 09:34 PM.
    Lvl X TKO Automag PF/HL, Intelliframe, a Simmons 30mm Red Dot and a J&J 12" Ceramic barrel.
    Crossfire 68/4500
    -------------------------------------
    Die Hard Woods Player

  2. #392
    The difference in heights is very similar, and the difference in head tilt is beyond dramatic. Seriously, the "mounted" red dot is maybe half an inch higher... and still the head is not tilted at all. That does not seem weird to anyone? Helloooooo?

    He is not looking thru the red dot. Period. Think Im wrong? Good for you. He still aint looking thru it. His head is beside the stock.

    And, while getting your eye into position to look through a red dot sight, it has NOTHING to do with your shooting style. Firearms style? Stock weld? Whatever. Nothing to do with the simple act of getting your head into position. You can do the funky chicken and wave your hands in the air for a ll I care, and call it the "Skippeedoo style", but that does not change the fact that your eye has to be in that ONE spot regardless of style.

    Side question for who ever took the picture of the guy on the left. Is he really left handed? I couldn't put my finger on but after looking at the picture for a couple of minutes it dawned on me his head position looks very odd. He has his left eye WAY behind his right. That makes me think he's right-eye dominate and just holding the marker left handed. That alone would account for the horrible head position.
    You are right, and I agree... but the head still has to be dramaticly tilted to get into that position, even if with the dominant eye closer. That has been proven in half a dozen pisture so far, even with exluding this one. Spec Ops head is not tilted at all. It is impossible to be looking thru the red dot, even if the red dot was raised up a foot. You would still have to angle your head.
    Last edited by famousgamer; 03-26-2006 at 10:00 PM.

  3. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyger
    Why bother?

    You've already made up YOUR mind, and your agenda is to slam a company based on your opinion of a single product. Any "proof" you demand you automatically refute as being faked. So evenif I produce pictures, you'll automatically say it's faked, photoshopped, and otherwise altered.

    At least that's the pattern that's emerged so far.

    If you don't like it, do better.
    I knew someone would try to halt the train after Spec Ops pictures got busted. Spec Ops didnt show "proof". Spec Ops lied.

    No Tyger. How bout YOU quit, and Ill keep going? The guy Spec Ops lied, you sold out and now defend Special Ed Paintball regardless of common sense. I didnt do anything wrong last time I checked, except for warning prospective buyers that the Longbow aint as good as just modding a Tac One, and I know that you agree with that on some level.

    And Borphs design is ALREADY better than the Longbow, so why do you need multiple examples of markers better than the Longbow stock placement?

    In your face.

    You've already made up YOUR mind, and your agenda is to slam a company based on your opinion of a single product.
    I love Spec Ops clothing and Ghillie, among a few other products. Dont make this something it isnt Tyger, and dont put words in my mouth. I dont do that to you. Seriously, that is a childish thing to do, so stop it please. Its kinda pathetic to watch. I simply dislike the Longbow stock placement, and a few other things to do with its design. See? I also dislike almost all the A5 stocks, as they block masks too (cept for the excellent dogleg). I also dislike the Fusion pants, as they are loud and make me sound like a diaper for no good reason. So, I like some things and not others. Glad we got that cleared up.

    " So evenif I produce pictures, you'll automatically say it's faked, photoshopped, and otherwise altered ".
    What a load of crap. You know that I will credit a quality picture and give it the credit its due. Spec Ops pictures are purposley crap pictures, and deserve no credit, and you know it. He knows it. Besides, prove it to the hundreds of people who will read this thread, not me. I am sure they wont all tink that you guys "photoshopped" or "altered" your pics, will they?

    I am so bored with this. Tyger, I seriously used to think you were cool. You are a total sell out. Spec Ops, redeem yourself with some decent pics.
    Last edited by famousgamer; 03-26-2006 at 10:10 PM.

  4. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    I can not beleive I need to explain this... but here goes...

    Well, I guess common sense is not so common after all...

    So, tell me how you can get your eye into the place where it needs to be to look into a red dot WITHOUT tilting your head?

    No tilt...


    With tilt...


    Now, from these two pictures, try to guess who IS NOT looking through the red dot because he is not tilting his head?


    How does that work Tyger? Not tilting your head and having your eye on top the stock?

    Even with Borphs setup you need to tilt your head, and the Longbow blocks twice as much of a mask as Borphs setup does.

    Anyways,. that is exactly why I dont want to debate this anymore. Its is so retarded, and I am so startled by peoples complete lack of common sense on the issue. What a dead horse. The design sucks. It just does. Dont lie about it and make up stories about your magical eyes and untilting heads.


    DID YOU EVEN READ THIS POST? ANY RESPONSE? HOW CAN A PERSON BE LOOKING THRU THE RED DOT IF THEY ARE NOT TILTING THEIR HEAD?!

  5. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Spec.Ops1
    Pics for ya. Mask is a solid plastic Xtreme Rage 20/20.



    Front side.



    Edit: oops forgot to load second photo.

    Check back on the rebuttal later... going paragliding!
    Hehe. These pictures are supposed to prove the Longbow has plenty of mask clearance? It proves that Spec Ops does not want us to see what a propery shouldered and sighted Longbow looks like! As far as I am concerned this is proof on top of proof on top of proof. I am tapping out for a few days. This is sickening. My stuff is in the mail, and I am building this week. I post later. I cant stand the banality.

  6. #396
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    I know you're passionate about this famousgamer and I've really enjoyed looking at all of your designs, but I think you've lost perspective on this one point. Maybe it's just the point that you're putting so much weight on some bad pictures that has me playing devil's advocate...I dunno.

    I'm not saying Spec.Ops is or is not looking through the red dot, but I can tell you that the other example is wrong also.

    Take a second and look at where the stock is contacting the mask of the shooter. On Spec.Ops, it's very low on the mask, almost the edge, and probably very close to his jaw line. You can see his head position is very high and thus he would not have to tilt his head much. In fact, in the face-one picture of him, his head IS tilted.

    The kid, on the other hand, is trying to either sight like he's holding a rifle (one-eye closed) or is simply not left handed. Either way, he's got it all wrong. He also has his mask contacted the stock directly below his eye. You can't rightfully say that picture is a valid example of what's wrong with the LongBow if the shooter is all jacked up in his positioning.

    Basically I think you're trying to compare apples and oranges. You'd need two shooters holding identical rigs, wearing the same/similar masks to really get a good comparison. I'd be happy to take photos but I don't own a Longbow.

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    I knew someone would try to halt the train after Spec Ops pictures got busted. Spec Ops didnt show "proof". Spec Ops lied.

    No Tyger. How bout YOU quit, and Ill keep going? The guy Spec Ops lied, you sold out and now defend Special Ed Paintball regardless of common sense. I didnt do anything wrong last time I checked, except for warning prospective buyers that the Longbow aint as good as just modding a Tac One, and I know that you agree with that on some level.
    ...
    What a load of crap. You know that I will credit a quality picture and give it the credit its due. Spec Ops pictures are purposley crap pictures, and deserve no credit, and you know it. He knows it. Besides, prove it to the hundreds of people who will read this thread, not me. I am sure they wont all tink that you guys "photoshopped" or "altered" your pics, will they?

    I am so bored with this. Tyger, I seriously used to think you were cool. You are a total sell out.
    If you say so.

    Umm, in talking with SpecOps over time, I get a feel for how he works in situations like this. And you know what? I get a feeling he read your post, grabbed his paintgun and walked to the guy who does photos for the catalog. "Hey, I need a few pictures." 4 minutes later, he puts them on the web. From my expirence talking with, and playing paintball with SpecOps, I would be hard pressed to say he lies about something this trivial.

    You're claiming that he photoshopped his pics, or faked them, or whatever. And after repeated attempts, you STILL say all the photos produced are either faked or altered. And for what it's worth, I could say the same about your photos. "Hey, hold this gun and I want you to REALLY crank your neck over! Exagerate it a little too." So what's to say your photos aren't faked too?

    Lemme see, you flamed me over my use of a 21 ball stick feed when you claim it's obvious I do so much better with a regular hopper. You flamed me when I said heavier paint flies further and you insulted many people in the thread. You flamed me for... well just about everything you've ever posted has been negative about somoene else. That doesn't sound to me like you thought I was "Cool". It sounds to me like you like the attention. The fact you post 3-4 messages in a string with photos that prove nothing more than you have time on your hands and a chip on your shoulder.

    I'm still trying to figure out what they ever did to you. Did you buy a Longbow and they wouldn't take it back or something? Sell it on E-Bay and get over it.

    I'm still snickering about being a "sell out". Tell me, I used an Automag in my shows. Did I sell out becasue they sponsored the shows? I still use my e-mag, and I show it to people when I play. Even when they don't officially sponsor my show anymore, I still use and promote their stuff. Same for Lapco and Flurry. Does that mean I "sold out" to them too? Or does it mean that I found products I like, asked for and gained sponsorship for my shows, and continue to use the products because I honesty like the product? And if I did sell out, I hope I got enough for it. Seriously, I could use the money.

    Funny. I feel like most music artists. When nobody knows them, they're pure to the music. The moment they sign a deal, they're sellouts to their "hardcore fans". But I move on.

    I'll say it again. If you don't like the product, make a better one and market it. It's not that hard a concept. It's how most of the airsmiths in paintball got started.

    -Tyger


    "Oh, you're wearing a tail and ears, you're a freak."
    "No social change has ever come about without freaks. Einstein was a freak. Ben Franklin was a freak. Martin Luther King was a freak. ...be proud to be included in those ranks."
    -2, The Ranting Gryphon

  8. #398
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    Also look at the position of the sights on both markers the one that Spec Ops is using is farther forward on the rail than the one with kid in the red shirt is wearing. I dont know if this would make a difference. I think it would be more fair if you could get the same person to sight both markers .... (realizing that this probably impractical as no one probably has access to both) Because small changes in shouldering position can make for a big change in head, position,please excuse the pic quality but my wife went to bed already. Now Im not trying to side with either party but just put some objectivity back in the thread.








    Crap why the heck are these pics so big on my website they freakin small ... have to edit the website i guess

    Ok i have it corrected so I dont have King kong sized pics now
    Last edited by Coralis; 03-27-2006 at 12:15 AM.

  9. #399
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    I agree Coralis. The distance gives the eye a wider field of view to sight in on with the scope.

  10. #400
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    I took the gun to the paintball store in nyc some guys are ex military, police officers and what not it was a spec ops day at the shop. many people held the gun and said it was to tight we had over 6 different types of masks the dye seem to work the best but i prefer jt (covers the jaw line) now you may feel that i may be bias but that day at the paintball shop more people didn't like it then they did. it got fear points and cool points but a lot of guys don't like the extreme bending. i picked up a tasco sight because it cheap i am not buying the hakko i need something that if it breaks. it don't hurt my wallet. i order a weaver rail but it did not come in time. if you guys say that we are holding it wrong take a vid of you shooting it show us your stance picutures can be manipulated. maybe over 50 guys that day that held my gun could be wrong. maybe you should included a dvd to how to hold and shoot your longbow?

    i really like the concept of the longbow i really do but it needs to be improve. for 1k it should give you options. i am looking at this situation price vs function lets be real the automag is no dm5/6 so since the automag is not a massive paint slinger for the price it should have more adjustablity or a lower price

    now spec ops offer to take my longbow kit and return my money i may take him up on that offer aftter i take it and ad a riser to the sight. and see what happens from there. but after this all said and done i will do a write up on my "preference" cost i feel that people should understand that the longbow is not something you grab and play but something that you should build to your liking.

    so be prepare to spend over 1g for PREFERENCE

    I WOULD LIKE SPEC OPS FOR ANSWERING OUR QUESTIONS AND EVEN WILLING TO RETURN MY MONEY EVEN IF I WASN'T HAPPY WITH THE PRODUCT FOR THAT YOU EARNED MY RESPECT.

    so on that note people i bid you goodbye and goodluck

    LONEWOLF SIGNING OUT
    BACK IN THE GAME.


  11. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    Spec Ops didnt show "proof". Spec Ops lied.
    I have nothing to hide nor lie about. Are you going to be hitting any scenario or big game this year? I would be more than happy to meet you in person and have a good chat about all this.

    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    Spec Ops, redeem yourself with some decent pics.
    Famousflamer,

    Here you go I put on a barrel so it would be easier to see where I was aiming. I took some pictures with my hoodie on.. but then realized you would cry foul about not being able to see my neck. Anyhow... a bunch for all.













    Hope this satisfies! (yes... that's me this last saturday night... again nothing to hide)

    Rory McCarthy

    AIM/Yahoo = IrishPipes79
    Roryshouse@hotmail.com

  12. #402
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    this is truely a great thread. props to you all working so hard to prove points. Awesome AO


    "Dimebag" Darrell Lance Abbott
    August 20th, 1966--December 8th, 2004

    evildead420 uber feedback thread

  13. #403
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    Looks like the SpecOps version works to me. BTW --- here's my grip mounted JCS stock to compare:




    HLD...

  14. #404
    It is true. It actually does look like Spec Ops is looking down that marker without a hitch. One can not deny that.

    One thing is for sure. Some people hella tilt and others dont. I decided that when pictures appear to hold up both sides of the story Id have to try one out for myself to gather an opinion. It seems the evidence is not as stacked to one side as I earlier thought. Thanks for the pictures guys.

    Regardless, check this out!


    It seems our designs have even reached the Q Loader website! Sweet. Borph is on an earlier page as well, as well as some mags from AO. Thought that was pretty cool and worth showing.

    Some people like the Longbow stock height, and it fits some people after all. I can already tell that the stock is too high and short for me personally, but it seems that personal taste is a factor when that stock height can potentially fit where it is.

    I will admit the stock can work there, but its height and lack of length adjustability still make it dramaticly limited. A stock plate could fix all those problems in one fell swoop, at a low low cost.

    To build my own "Longbow killer" I got a Q Loader on its way, and a warp feed. I got a warp body, and all the trimmins'. AGD pride! Ill keep you posted, with pics, on the progress. Thanks again for the pictures Coralis and Spec Ops. Steps along the road, and broken eggs for omlettes and all that. Ill be back ina few days. Hopefully a UPS will have arrived by them.

    and yeah... Im at alot of events... Im a famousgamer . If you see my marker youll know its me.
    Last edited by famousgamer; 03-29-2006 at 04:03 AM.

  15. #405
    Wait a second! Hold the phone! This just in!

    Actually, my mag stuff arrived this morning, and I have been tinkering around all day. I have been sticking everything on the mag. I tried the bottle in the back bottle adapter... taping pods under my t stock, taping sights at various heights on top the marker... putting my head in every position... etc. Anything to test every drawing we have tried here.

    I am not goin gto go into detail yet, but while wearing my Profiler the t stock height in Borphs configuration is perfect! The only thing wrong is where the actual T of the t-stock ends up, as it seems a little high still. The bar that brushes along the mask is still a perfect height tho. Anything higher and it would not be good.

    Then I compare that to the Longbow. SHRUG CITY! Shrugging sucks when using a paintball marker with a stock... and everyone is shrugging is their pics! Also, having a stock that is too short sucks. I am tall, and that Longbow stock would drive me insane. Good thing my t stock adjusts! I adjusted my t-stock to a similar length as the Longbow, and actually laughed out loud... it was so shruggy. Ouch.

    What I also noticed is that it is actually fairly easy to get yer head straight for a photo, but that is seldom the angle your heads snaps to when firing. You need clearance above, below, and left and right of your sight. Your head actually needs to move around, at least a little, without bumping into that stock top bar. I can only imagine the forgivness the Longbow top bar has, being it is so high.

    So, I am sorry I dont have pics yet. Ill make a little bundle of pics to show when I get some more stuff stuck to my marker, and when my gf comes home to take pics. I am thrilled to actually be building tho.

    Interesting things I have learned this morning?

    - it sucks to fire a paintball marker with your head on more of a 20* angle. Firing a rifle with a buttstock is completley different. That fact was more re-ecforced rather than learned however.

    - the T-stock and back bottle adapter height is almost perfect and allows plenty of mask clearance. The only thing better would of course be mounting your bottle on a undergrip bottomline asa... which is also great. The T-stock gives plenty of ground clearance and takes alot of weight away. I got a 68 CI tank, and even tho it is fiber wound it is still pretty heavy back there.

    - the T stock gas nipple can be turned on an angle like I had hoped, but the buttplate will hold to that angle and not be left/right adjustable. That part sucks, but the good news is that the whole t part of the t stock is too high anyways, and I was planning on welding a new peice there. Phew. For people hoping to try this combo out tho, either get a t stock with a nipple along the side of the bar, or the bottom will be fine if you arent mounting your Q there. Ill provide pics of what I mean soon.

    - the Q Loader can not be mounted under the stock as I had planned in a few drawings, but not because of the arms of chest clearance issues. Because of my hand needing a little more room to fit into the grip. My lower palm hits the Q Loader basicly. I could move it all back, and will still try that, but I fear the stock may be too long then. This is still my goal tho. So far, the Borph pattern Q Loader setup (under the grip) is turning out to be the easiest to install, most balanced... and best place until I can work the stock.

    - I should actually be less focused on sculpting cosmetic parts, and most of the configurations are not allowing room for that kinda floofy stuff anyways.

    The setup that will most probably be the one is this one...


    Aside from the sculpting of the stock, this should be my starting setup. The plain t-stock is actually surpassing my expectations, so I may not mess with it at all. This way I do not need the CMS upgrade right away, and I can see if I enjoy playing with the Q Loader for a while... and remote for that matter!

  16. #406
    Actually, here is a little scetch of what I beleive to be the optimal stock height, while wearing a VForce Profiler, and not having a riser for your sight on the top of your marker...



    That buttplate is in the perfect spot, and will not require the operator to shrug at all, and remain in a compact and relaxed shooting position.

    To find where the buttplate best rests, most of the time you can just draw a T out from the bottomline (undergrip). It is pretty much the area that all on-air players have their air/C02 tank. Its no wonder why this is such a popular spot. Its really comfy.

    Again... I look at the Longbow and cringe at how uncomfortable it must be to shoot, unless you are that perfect height of person to fit it. That buttplate is SO high its insane. I just do not understand how I keep moving my buttplates down to get more comfy, and the Longbow has it so high up? Shrugorama! Its reminds me of my fave outdoor concert.... Shrugapalooza!!!

    In the pictures from Coralis you can actually see that the buttplate part of his tank is in a great spot for bracing while shooting. So much mask clearance, and his eye perfectly looks along the top of the marker with his head yoga'ed. I think that is the key. Just leave enough room, and still have the marker braced in a spot when the weight is steadied.
    Last edited by famousgamer; 03-29-2006 at 07:06 PM.

  17. #407

    Insanely Cool Thread

    Despite the fact that Famousgamer fancies himself as the self-appointed "Tyler Durden" of woods paintball, and despite the fact that Special Ops Paintball is being positioned as some kind of institutional, "corporationey," authority figure (when the heck did THAT happen?,) I'm stoked out-of-my-mind by this thread.

    Famousgamer's designs are very, very cool, imho. All of the concepts on this thread are amazing. I'm making this thread required reading for the SpecOps design crew (by the way, I'm a principal just like SpecOps1.)

    Special Ops was originally conceived as a company that would market cool woods paintball products that were manufactured BY SOMEONE ELSE. Unfortunately, three years ago, there were very few cool woodsball product manufactured by ANYONE. So, Special Ops got into the business of designing and manufacturing product -- and, a new breed of tactical paintball product was born.

    One excrutiatingly obvious product that was missing in the woodsball market was a viable paintball sniper gun. We were thrilled when we found the Punisher's Custom Crowd Buster (http://punishers-customs.com/gallery/crowdbuster/.) Alas, we were disappointed to discover that Punisher's Custom doesn't make these guns in any kind of production volume. So, our quest for a paintball sniper marker resumed.

    Ultimately, we designed our own and it introduced a new class of marker. To see innovative guys like Famousgamer and those on this forum work to improve on that design is very exciting to us. Three years ago, before the Longbow, there was nothing to talk about. Now, we're cranking on newer and better sniper paintball gun designs. That makes me very happy.

    However, I do happen to know what goes into building a new marker variant like the Longbow. I know how much prototyping time, testing time and machine time (not to mention many tens of thousands of dollars) go into making a production-worthy marker design. I wish Famousgamer well.

    Until such time as a rich uncle leaves Famousgamer a bundle of cash and he suddenly has the means to crank out a production gun that will outshine the Longbow, I'm loving the heck out of playing with my Q-bow every weekend. It's such a different way to play the game. Aim and shoot as opposed to hosing down my target -- I love it!

  18. #408
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    I think Joracle has made a point. Nobody else really makes mods like this, and it is extrememly high cost.

    I have read a lot of this post, and its kinda disturbed me. Famousgamer and LoneWolf, I wanna give you a little advice from me to you. Please do not get me wrong, because maybe you were mad at the time, and maybe you have settled down now, but you do not make a valid argument or even have any respect in a discussion if you can't keep trash talk and namecalling to yourself. I am sure both of you are old enough to know that if you plan on making a longbow replacement. I am 15 and I don't do that. I typically get a lot of respect in my posts, even from those who strongly disagree with me. I don't need namecalling to get any respect, for it is not cool, and it makes both of you look bad. When I first saw both of your posts, I respected you a lot more than I do now. They have caused me to lose a great deal of respect for you.

    I have seen all of those pictures, and I will tell you that very few of them tell us anything with your mentallity toward Special Ops 1's pictures. I don't see why you are so set on the idea that he altered the pictures. Just as others have said, you could have altered yours too, or you could have exagerated the pictures. That kid in the red didn't even look like he was trying to use a sight correctly in my opinion, but I cannot prove that, just as you cannot prove that he altered those photos.

    I am not saying that you guys don't have a valid point. I totally respect your ideas, and always have. I love the idea of a new Automag mod, especially one that mixes a tourney style to make a nice stock for running remote. The problem is, you are not just planning a cool new mod, you are doing it to try to beat Special Ops, which is pointless. Why not just be happy to know that you are making a cool mod? Do you have to fuel yourself by bashing on somebody elses product just because it doesn't work for you or your friends? Just because it doesn't work for you does not mean it will not work for everybody, for there are plenty of people that love it, yet even on the Special Ops forum there are people that do not like it.

    However, you will see everywhere that not everyone likes a single thing. You may like one type of Cola, yet a good many like a differant kind. You may like Nike shoes, but I will stick with my Vans. You may like colorful clothing, but I will stick to my black stuff. Its how the world works, and I would figure that someone of your age (or atleast the age you appear with your ideas) would be able to live with the fact that someone made a product that some like and others don't. The world does not revolve around you, and they shouldn't have to change a product because you don't like it.

    The thing is, you tell Tyger that his opinions don't matter, yet neither of your opinions matter any more than his. He can like stock-class, and he can play with it all he wants. Its not about what hopper you think he would do better with, its about what he does better with, and I am sure that if he likes a 21 round mag he is gonna use it. You are trying to apply your playing style on others and make it seem that your playing style is the only valid way to play. I could give a damn less what you don't like about the Longbow. You have no right to tell Tyger what you think is wrong with how he plays, or push it aside like he is just another person. The fact is, not only is he another person, he is a consumer just as you and I, and if he plays well with his style of play, he can do what he wants.

    I have much respect for Tyger, and I highly doubt he came here to tell you his opinions because his site (which rarely even produces a new video) is sponsored by Special Ops. You have crap talked him, Special Ops (the company), Special Ops 1, and anybody who successfully uses a Longbow and enjoys it with the words you have said, and I honestly do not think you have a very good idea on how to approach a situation. You are one person against a whole company who obviously feels that their product is good, and has players that use is every weekend at their field games, and do not complain, for obviously if one of the Spec Ops guys would have complained, they would have changed something.

    They have all rights to sell their product, and many people do enjoy it. As others have suggested, if you do not like your longbow kit, sell it on EBay. That is a great way to get some money back, and then you can do all that you want with that cash.

    To conclude my post, I would suggest maybe rethinking the way you treat people, because if you honestly think you are gonna run a business with the attitude you have shown Spec Ops 1, Tyger, and anyone else who has read your post (including myself), I pity your soul.


    -Ninja of the Night

  19. Preach on brother beavis.


    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaoftheNight79
    I think Joracle has made a point. Nobody else really makes mods like this, and it is extrememly high cost.

    I have read a lot of this post, and its kinda disturbed me. Famousgamer and LoneWolf, I wanna give you a little advice from me to you. Please do not get me wrong, because maybe you were mad at the time, and maybe you have settled down now, but you do not make a valid argument or even have any respect in a discussion if you can't keep trash talk and namecalling to yourself. I am sure both of you are old enough to know that if you plan on making a longbow replacement. I am 15 and I don't do that. I typically get a lot of respect in my posts, even from those who strongly disagree with me. I don't need namecalling to get any respect, for it is not cool, and it makes both of you look bad. When I first saw both of your posts, I respected you a lot more than I do now. They have caused me to lose a great deal of respect for you.

    I have seen all of those pictures, and I will tell you that very few of them tell us anything with your mentallity toward Special Ops 1's pictures. I don't see why you are so set on the idea that he altered the pictures. Just as others have said, you could have altered yours too, or you could have exagerated the pictures. That kid in the red didn't even look like he was trying to use a sight correctly in my opinion, but I cannot prove that, just as you cannot prove that he altered those photos.

    I am not saying that you guys don't have a valid point. I totally respect your ideas, and always have. I love the idea of a new Automag mod, especially one that mixes a tourney style to make a nice stock for running remote. The problem is, you are not just planning a cool new mod, you are doing it to try to beat Special Ops, which is pointless. Why not just be happy to know that you are making a cool mod? Do you have to fuel yourself by bashing on somebody elses product just because it doesn't work for you or your friends? Just because it doesn't work for you does not mean it will not work for everybody, for there are plenty of people that love it, yet even on the Special Ops forum there are people that do not like it.

    However, you will see everywhere that not everyone likes a single thing. You may like one type of Cola, yet a good many like a differant kind. You may like Nike shoes, but I will stick with my Vans. You may like colorful clothing, but I will stick to my black stuff. Its how the world works, and I would figure that someone of your age (or atleast the age you appear with your ideas) would be able to live with the fact that someone made a product that some like and others don't. The world does not revolve around you, and they shouldn't have to change a product because you don't like it.

    The thing is, you tell Tyger that his opinions don't matter, yet neither of your opinions matter any more than his. He can like stock-class, and he can play with it all he wants. Its not about what hopper you think he would do better with, its about what he does better with, and I am sure that if he likes a 21 round mag he is gonna use it. You are trying to apply your playing style on others and make it seem that your playing style is the only valid way to play. I could give a damn less what you don't like about the Longbow. You have no right to tell Tyger what you think is wrong with how he plays, or push it aside like he is just another person. The fact is, not only is he another person, he is a consumer just as you and I, and if he plays well with his style of play, he can do what he wants.

    I have much respect for Tyger, and I highly doubt he came here to tell you his opinions because his site (which rarely even produces a new video) is sponsored by Special Ops. You have crap talked him, Special Ops (the company), Special Ops 1, and anybody who successfully uses a Longbow and enjoys it with the words you have said, and I honestly do not think you have a very good idea on how to approach a situation. You are one person against a whole company who obviously feels that their product is good, and has players that use is every weekend at their field games, and do not complain, for obviously if one of the Spec Ops guys would have complained, they would have changed something.

    They have all rights to sell their product, and many people do enjoy it. As others have suggested, if you do not like your longbow kit, sell it on EBay. That is a great way to get some money back, and then you can do all that you want with that cash.

    To conclude my post, I would suggest maybe rethinking the way you treat people, because if you honestly think you are gonna run a business with the attitude you have shown Spec Ops 1, Tyger, and anyone else who has read your post (including myself), I pity your soul.


    -Ninja of the Night

  20. #410
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    BROOKLYN NYC
    Posts
    269
    Maybe you have not read my post to the fullest but i was never in the market to replace the longbow all i wanted was a adapter plate made i took apart my longbow stock and guess what they could had easliy made extra holes to really make their product work all i wanted is to not bend my head so much to look into my scope thats all. i never i repeat never said that there product is trash i did say however for the price they are chargeing they should had offer a little more adjustablty here is some pics on lonewolf longbow journey.








    the first one is the plate that snap into the shroud all they have to do is make it a inch thick and bring the hole towards the bottom simple to do they have the equipment to do it it should cost next to nothing to make. people that have owned the longbow even complain of being short for tall and big guys like me just want a little adjustablity.

    so spec ops can you send me a longow clip plate unmachined with the parts (first pic) so i could machine one i only have one and if i screw up i don't want to kick out 150 for a new one. so now i stop complaining and need parts to get to my style of play lets see what happens.

    and as far as ebay go unless i get the money/time i put into it i would never sell it i didn't get rich by selling things below cost you know. and as far as the pics go i told alex to try to look into the sight with the jt mask. he did the best he can and even after seeing the new pics posted you still have to have your shoulder shrug up to have the stock against your shoulder. i don't mind the shrug up shoulder thing but, spec ops is a small guy he does not need to shrug up as much as a big guy like me has too because i have bigger and longer arms.

    i feel the longow should come with a adapter plate for tall and big guys thats all. why not it cost over 700 for standard longbow not including sights, rails, qbow adapter, qpod kit, warp feed kit.

  21. #411
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Near the Quad Cities on the Illinois side. Right by the Mississippi River.
    Posts
    89
    Now that is the kind of post I am looking for in an arguement. I do respect that very much. Thank you. Im sorry if I implied that both of you were guilty and both did all offences. I wasn't trying to apply that, and you do have my apologies. You never did say that the longbow was trash, but as for Famousgamer, he has seemed to imply the (high majority of the time) that the Longbow clearly needs a replacement.

    While it is a bit harder for me to understand why Famousgamer has so much against the fact that Special Ops makes a product, I can see why you, Lonewolf, are upset about the product. I too agree that special ops does need to find a way to either make it adjusteable or provide differant sized stocks and stocks with more options. I think they did a great job with the Dogleg stock, which can be put on the Longbow, but since you already bought it with the origional stock, I doubt you want to pay that money, but the option is available.

    I really do wish you luck with that, and I would sure hope that Special Ops can help you out with that.

    As far as EBay goes, no matter how long it takes, it would be worth it if it is useless to you, and even though you won't get your full money back, atleast you will have some moneyback if you really aren't gonna use it.

  22. #412
    Well Ninja of the Night, I said it once and Ill say i again...

    I could not care less about how people view my personality online. I simply dont care. If anyone makes a post of a thousand words about how I am a big meanie, I wont even bother reading it. Keep critisizing my personality, and Ill keep ignoring posts of that variety. Weeee!

    This is ironic after all, because it was Ninja of the Night that originally came up with idea that the Classic A.I.R. valve was in fact the better valve for sniping. After conducting my own research... I found he was right. So, in a way Ninja encourgaed a huge part of the "sniper" mag.

    So, sorry, still no camera.... so no new pics of the mag setup tho. I did find my optimal stock position however, and I will share that with you in case you were interested...

    The T stock goes out like this normally...


    A pretty good spot, but for the most comfy firing position most people would wither have to shrug their shoulders up to look down a red dot with no rise, or put risers under their red dot adn have their marker shouldered slightly low. The problem in shouldering it low is that you cannot keep the marker down and snap pivot it up into position when stalking. The pivot spot is just too low. Hard to explain, so I hope you see what I mean.

    I was pretty amazed to find that this was the most comfy spot for the buttplate while not using a riser for my red dot...


    The first thing I thought of when putting the buttplate there was when LONEWOLF submitted his pics of the Longbow with the stock half on and hinged downward. LONEWOLF said this was the most comfy spot for the stock, and it all made sense all the sudden. That really is the best place for the buttplate dude! Not only does it slide and shoulder nice, and snap into position, but it also allows plently of room for the mask. Check it out...


    Perhaps the reason why people are stating this is the most comfy spot is actually because this is the most comfy spot? Hmmm?

    There are problems with my t stock buttplate placement tho. It does not look cool... yet, and there is no way to buy a pre-made stock of this variety. You have to unscrew the buttplate and re-weld it into this new spot.

    I still and really excitied about using this spot as my starting buttstock spot tho. You can shoulder it so easily, and having the c curve of the stock slightly angled like that means your shoulder can absorb some of the weight of the marker while it is shouldered. Again, tricky to explain, but it feels so nice.

    I know this is all kinda useless without pics, so pics are coming soon.
    Last edited by famousgamer; 03-31-2006 at 12:07 AM.

  23. #413
    Oh yeah. Talked to the Q Loader guys on the phone today. They have some VERY exciting stuff coming up in the very near future. Should really compliment the designs. More on that in a few weeks.

    And page 14. Seriously folks, this rocks. Thanks for all the brave words and bloody knuckles thus far.

  24. You die just like everyone else.. nuff said.

    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer

    I could not care less about how people view my personality online. I simply dont care. If anyone makes a post of a thousand words about how I am a big meanie, I wont even bother reading it. Keep critisizing my personality, and Ill keep ignoring posts of that variety. Weeee!

  25. #415
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    michigan.
    Posts
    772
    so much blustering about tilting your head to look into the sight.

    why not just tilt the marker? anyone playing with a hopper would have to tilt it anyway to keep the hopper behind cover(or at least in-line ith the head).

    i do like that last positiion for the stock. it reminds me of the crossman stock.

    the best qloader position i've seen so far was where it ran at about a 45* angle backward from the front grip area. it seems that that would be the most convenient place for it in terms of fast reloading.

  26. #416
    I agree totally. The 45* angle in front/below the grip is excellent, and would provide the quickest reloads. It also looks cool there.

    The crossman stock is also an excellent shape, and I understand more than ever why it is shaped the way it is.

    I have tried a new design of hiding the Q in the stock, and it looks very promising. Pics soon.

    I personally would NEVER tilt my marker when firing, after thousands of dollars in research and development has been dedicated towards accuracy in paintball marker and barrels when the marker is fired upright. Not tilted. I dont even like the feeling at all of tilting my markers and firing it. I also am planning on using an Apex tip now and then, so tilting is out of the question. Tilting while snapshooting? Sure. Not my fave shooting position tho.

    The point is... its simple to solve mask clearance issues by placing the stock in the right place. Dont need tons of risers, or need to tilt the marker. Its as simple as putting the stock in the right spot, and that eliminates so many problems off the bat. If you doubt that then get some sticks and cardboard and design your fave stock position on your marker at home. I can garuntee it will not end up where the Longbow stock is.

    I will put my marker design up to the Longbow taste challenge anyday, in terms of comfort and ease of use, as well as cost effectivness. No more bump bump of the stock bumping your mask, and no more yoga neck either. No more shrugging to get that buttplate centered. No more stocks that are too short and un-adjustable. Blah blah etc.

    If have a Longbow, simply do what LONEWOLF did and just hinge the marker on the lower screw holes, and move the stock to wherever you feel. Chances are its gonna be tilting down to allow for maximum comfort.

    Its actually pretty easy just to decide on your favorite shooting stance, and then build a concept stock from whatever you got lying around, and masking tape. That is only the concept mind you, but it provides some serious insight into where a stock should be. For me, I hate shrugging while shooting, having my elbows too high (I stay tight), and having the buttplate that slips down and not take enough weight. Find your fave style, and base a design off that. You will really suprise yourself with what you come up with.

  27. #417
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    UC Santa Barbara
    Posts
    459
    Quote Originally Posted by famousgamer
    ... yet, and there is no way to buy a pre-made stock of this variety. You have to unscrew the buttplate and re-weld it into this new spot.

    http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/2087/

    I think it would look alright if the qloader ran right next to a co2 tank, but i don't know how the balance would be then.

  28. #418
    Not the nicest thing to look at, but this seems to ne the most comfy thing so far...



    Low profile? More like no profile. Even the red dot does not need to be raised. No tilting. No shrugging. If that buttplate assembly was adjustable, that would be the ultimate in comfort.

    With this stock position, it rolls up unto the shoulder so easily, and allows the marker to be shouldered without shrugging at all. No shrug. Garunteed.

    Also, if for some reason you were hip shooting, and the stock was under your armpit, having no part that snags while pulling it up to re-shoulder the stock is great! The buttplate is rounded so as not to snag.

    Id love to use the 45* Q Loader setup, but then I wouldnt have room for the adjustable forgrip. In fact, there would not be room for any foregrip. I tried holding a pod taped in that position like a rifle grip, but I know that with the weight of my silencer I will need a vert grip. Also, with the marker sitting that high due to the low buttplate, a vert grip just makes for less work for your steadying hand.

    Whith this 140 round pod taped to the bottom of my modified T stock (Ill have my Q Loader next week) I totally forget it is even there. Doesnt rub up against my arm or body much at all, and uses up no room that is vital for any other part of my body. Mark my words. Paint in the stock is the way of the future.

    Here is the no-silencer version.
    Last edited by famousgamer; 03-31-2006 at 04:46 AM.

  29. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by FinchMan
    I think it would look alright if the qloader ran right next to a co2 tank, but i don't know how the balance would be then.
    Well, as far as I can tell a Q Loader to the side would work pretty good, and that stock should actually be in a great spot... so that would theoreticly make for a pretty great on-air configuration.

    What I am finding is that the top of the T gets stuck in my bdu's when switching from hip shooting under my armpit to a shouldered firing position. I found that an L shape can actually do all the work of a T, and not get snagged.

  30. #420
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    BROOKLYN NYC
    Posts
    269
    breaking news breaking news i did it i solved the problem hoorah

    forgive me for my poor photshop skills i clean up once i get the time

    i want spec ops to make this for me take the longbow shroud adapter plates and merge them together the top can go into the shroud and the bottom can go into the gun its a inch lower problem solved

    no r and d because i did it for you cost $0 you can pay me if you want
    parts cost can't be to much because all you doing is mergeing two plates together you can make it look sexy but right now i am more into function than looks

    and this mod makes sense!! you may lose some of the abilty to "bring to bear" but i will gladly sacrifce it for improve head movement. can wait to see what comes of this


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