Tactical Automag prototype thread. Please help.

[NinjaoftheNight79]

Dozens of things to consider there RT. Thansk for the read! I personally love your setup. That machine looks lethal and tight, and I have a sneaking suspition the Mandilorians are involved with it somehow?!

I think you hit on an interesting and important note. You take a paintball sensibility to the woods, and that is something that there is much too little of these days. Comapnies want players to bog themselves down with vests and fancy duds and crap, and none of it really enhances the game, and ends up costing hundreds of dollars players should be spending on either their markers or their girlfriends. Not in that particular order however.... well who am I kidding?!

I personally learn alot from speedballers, but I also dislike playing speedball. I love the woods, and I even love playing defense all day just to enjoy the woods and woodsy tactics. I do tip my hat to speedball sensibility and tightness, and efficiency.

Your arm pod holders are great. I actually use a dump bag on my hip for replacing Q Loader pods. I hate reaching around my back and pulling out or replacing pods. These Spec Ops vests would make me ill after a day of using them. Its all pockets and compartments. I prefer gravity and speed. I even use my marker gas on latley, since my t stock busted its seal, and I am loving that more and more. I still love those Rhino covers.

Thanks again for the interesting read RT. I invented the player position "Shadow" on the Spec Ops boards, who was basicly a paintball player who doesnt need to buy and bog themselves down with alot of crap to win paintball games. As you may assume, it did not go well on the Spec Ops boards. I was basicly the anti-position position. There is a kernel of truth to my Shadow position tho, and practical paintball choices like yours reflect that RT.

The funny thing is, I actually never go out with vest or anything. I will say that a vest will help for some though. Some like to have that gear on hand. I go out in the woods with a full hopper and my marker. I don't carry anything stupid. I don't even carry pods, for I conserve paint. I played the defence side of an attack and defend game in which I was on a small island, and only used half a hopper. Then I did it again but on the attack side, and was a key player in (almost) taking over their base). I was the one that took down their main defence player (the one holding off half all 3 sides) and was the first got over to their island (over a small river, small enough to jump over if skilled), plus I was the one who would have been taking out a large portion of the 3 remaining players if time wasn't called, for I was leading the attack. I looked in my hopper, still only used half a hopper. It makes me feel proud.

As far as Special Ops, half of us think the position system is kinda dumb anyway. When people come in and try to make new ones, it gets on everyones nerves because they are dumb enough with the ones we have.

[famousgamer]

Hey, some people got money.. or their parents money to burn. All those vests and doo dads for the marker works out nice for them. All the power to em. I even see players with camel backs in 20 minute per round games. You cant drink water in between games?!

My fave is checking these out. Lunacy. http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c....tegory.1340/.f

You could also check out the "gear lists" on the Spec Ops page. Retarded.

Look at all that crap that will never get used. If you count up all the pockets on that Opsgear guy, there is a total of 31 pockets! 31! What the hell isnt this guy bringing to battle?! That guy has little pockets for maps and pencils and also has water and a sippie straw on his back. WTF?!

I use two pockets during paintball. One for my wallet and keys, and a dump bag on my belt for my pods. 2 pockets, compared to 31.

If I am feeling fancy and going remote air, I switch to a belt and suspenders. A total investment of 15 bucks for the belt and 5 bucks for the suspenders. If I pretend real hard I can make beleive that I have 31 pockets on a 500 dollar rig tho.

The problem with milsim is that paintball is actually a very poor simulation of real combat in the first place! Airsoft is much more suited fo that type of thing. If I see speedballers in the woods I get scurred. In most cases, if I see milsim paintballers on the speedball court I know who getting marked first.

Vests and tactics have nothing to do with eachother. Pockets and planning are two different things. Paintball in the woods and with inflatable bunkers is practically the same thing in essence.

In real life the warriors who want to be the best learn the best from everything. They crosstrain. If speedball has taught us anything it is to dress down. Lighten up. Be liquid out there. Be a tight package and a small target. Get some rate of fire on our side. Twice as many shots being fired is twice as much accuracy. Hey... dont hate.. participate!

[famousgamer]

Hehe. Just some fun.

Seriously tho, it is no wonder why people who play paintball for a living play a certain way. The only difference would be: If they were in the woods they would be wearing camo.

I am not saying one style is better than the other. I am saying one has to merge the two together to get paintball really tight in the woods is all.

[RT Old School]

I suppose I try a balanced approach to my paintball excursions. When I see some of my friends loading up their tac vests and filling their camelbaks I just kinda roll my eyes a little and let them go. I've crossed over a little bit with some aspects. I bought into the whole radio and throat mic thing. The fact is that we've never really gotten them to work. The fields we play on arent that big and the games dont warrant the need for that type of comms. If I ever get involved in some big scenario type action maybe I'll find some use for them.

I remember back in the mid 90's when (at least by us) the game was making the split from woodsball to speedball. Us faithful woods guys looked with disdain at the fancy jerseys and the bright shiny guns. At the same time though, we were peeking out of the corner of our eyes at those fancy shiny guns and marvelling at how much freakin' paint they threw!

The fields 'round our parts soon realized that they could sell WAY WAY more paint having 20 guy pouring it on in a speedball environment than the same amount of guys creeping and sniping in the woods. As a result it became harder and harder to find a field to support our favorite type of play. They seemed to PUSH us onto the speedball courses, and we had to put up a stink to get into the woods. Even some of my favorite woods fields have transformed into nothing more than speedball in the trees, by cutting away brush and cover and shrinking the size of our playing area. That has always made me resentful of speedball, because we woodsballers were pretty much abandonded.

Almost every time I go to a field there is some kid with his parents trying this sport out for the first time. I cant imagine them having a positive playing experience getting whacked in the first 30 seconds of every match on the speedball course. At least in the woods they have a little time to get adjusted, feel comfortable, and take a couple of shots.

In the end, its your money, do with it what you will. I'll play my way, you play yours, and we'll meet somewhere in the middle. May the better man win. If I get lit up, I'll probably find something to ***** about. If I am victorious, I'll talk smack the rest of the day.

Jeez, not anything technical in this post. I'll come up with something. I must have thrown away my freakin ULT parts because I cant find them anywhere. Grrr... I havent adjusted it since it came from the factory. I want to mess with the shims. There, some techie stuff.

[famousgamer]

I pretty much totally agree. The good new is, speedballers have really propelled paintball tech lately, and it is their desire for fast rate of fire and mobility that have really paved the way. Already I am considering an X Valve and a ULT, and I would have never guessed I would want those a year ago.

There is a place in between for playstlye, but I think we will loose the battle of the paintball feilds to the speedballers. A feild owner sees the numbers, and the high numbers are turned out by the speedball courts, as we all know. A woodsball feild that is 5 times as big sells one fifth the paint.

There are still a few woodsy places left here in BC that I take advantage of. I will send a high five to the speedballers and the woodsballers alike. As soon as I see a sippy straw tho I have to giggle.

[NinjaoftheNight79]

I am gonna say that I have mixed feelings. I don't think that either way is better. If I were, I know I would be blowing smoke. Please let me explain.

Woodball players at times bother me. To me, all that vest stuff isn't worth it, but for some, its great. There was an older couple (non-vets to paintball) playing woodsball wearing vests and it really helped them. For them, its what they needed. Also, people with mil-sim gear. It helps to an extent. If you wan't a stock, get a stock, but all those dumb pockets really aren't worth it. I have seen some really nicely set up A-5s with a stock and tank that worked very well for those people (using about 9-12 oz. CO2).

On the other hand, I have seen some speedballers that over do it. I see these guys in the newest version of all Dye gear: Marker, Jersey, Cleats, Pods, Pod Pack, Goggles, Tank, Tank Cover and then top it off with an Odyssey Halo B with Ripdrive. They have all of these super expensive gear that they don't need for woods. I mean sure, you can have that for speedball, especially if you are sponsored, but some of these people are just to fixed on being AGG. Its ok to be AGG, but its pointless if you are woodsballing. Also, they use huge rates of fire. There was a guy with a Karni at my field the other day, and he kept heads down, but used a lot of paint.

As I said before, I go out with regular clothing, a pair of $30 Nike cleats, and my Tac-One and tank. On me, I typically carry a squeegie and a barrel cover. I never take a pod on a normal 20 minute game, for I only use a single hopper. I do admit that having the capability of high speed fire (as I kinda am) is nice, but I hardly use it. I am a paintballer of many kinds. I am willing to play all sorts of types. To me, it doesn't matter so much. I typically prefer woodsball at my field, but its because my field's arena field isn't that great, and I wish I could play nice airball or hyperball. I keep it light and simple, and I control my firing. Even though more paint in the air means more accuracy, stopping to aim your shots means more accuracy too.

[famousgamer]

I agree. It is important to factor in however that it is better to have alot of firepower and not use, it, then to need it and not have it.

Really, the only thing I see that make speedballers poorly equipped for Woodsball is their bright colors. Give em camo and POW they are instant Woodsmasters. I am serious. There is nothing in the speedballer playbook that hinders them in the woods. The have the exact same capacity to figure out strategy in the woods as milsim players do as well.

Milsim player on the other hand can be VERY poorly suited for any form of speedball. That flashlight, laser sight, 31 pockets, camel back hydration system, night vision, vest, and backpack are going to do nothing to win you games on the speedball arena. One could argue that all that camo clothing, that heavy marker with its stock, and those heavy boots might not help either.

That is how my logic works. I just throw alot of stuff at the logic wall and see what sticks. In my mind about 90 percent of the milsim stuff falls to the floor. About 90 percent of the speedball stuff sticks.

It makes sense too. How many woodsballers do you know that are sponsored, or play professionaly, for a living?! I can name dozens of speedballers. This is serious war, Sponsorship war! Speedballers are only loooking at what wins them games. That is the attitude serious woodsballers might want to try out.

I am not saying this to knock Milsim guys. I just think that walls and terms in paintball are only there to limit and hinder players. Everyone should take something from everyone else.

[famousgamer]

Its nice having a page where you dont have to wait for a gazillion pics to load up before being able to read. Well actually, here is a few..

Q Loader is having a problem with their site, and I cant order my CMS upgrade. Ill get on the phone with them tommorow. Meanwhile, my research and delepment team (me) has been experimenting with new prototypes (basicly, my marker and a Q loader with some packing tape). Check this out...



This is actually my most comfy design to date. If the thumbhole is done right it should provide a very nice tight and comfy grip. When the top part of the buttplate is as wide as the Q Loaders diameter, you cant even tell there is a Q Pod there. That is the secret.

This mockup features a kinda Baretta Storm style handguard. Not sure if I am going to go this way yet, as I am still pretty satisfied with the vert grip. It does send a very clear message that this is a rifle type marker however. Regardless, this is how I will be doing the "paint stock".

Oh yeah, the air thru nipple aint gonna be there in the end, its just there so its out of the way for now.

If you got this kinda stuff laying around, I would encourage you to try this configuration out. A little tape goes a long way for design purposes.

EDIT: Tyler Durden would not get anything done if he actually SLEPT you know! I did a version with the sculpted skin. Just a draft, but you get the picture.

By the way, that hole in the bottom of the stock is there because that is where your thumb want to go thru when changing a Q pod. I personally do not like the way it looks, but changing pods would suck if it wasnt there.

[marpat]

I agree. It is important to factor in however that it is better to have alot of firepower and not use, it, then to need it and not have it.

Really, the only thing I see that make speedballers poorly equipped for Woodsball is their bright colors. Give em camo and POW they are instant Woodsmasters. I am serious. There is nothing in the speedballer playbook that hinders them in the woods. The have the exact same capacity to figure out strategy in the woods as milsim players do as well.

Milsim player on the other hand can be VERY poorly suited for any form of speedball. That flashlight, laser sight, 31 pockets, camel back hydration system, night vision, vest, and backpack are going to do nothing to win you games on the speedball arena. One could argue that all that camo clothing, that heavy marker with its stock, and those heavy boots might not help either.

That is how my logic works. I just throw alot of stuff at the logic wall and see what sticks. In my mind about 90 percent of the milsim stuff falls to the floor. About 90 percent of the speedball stuff sticks.

It makes sense too. How many woodsballers do you know that are sponsored, or play professionaly, for a living?! I can name dozens of speedballers. This is serious war, Sponsorship war! Speedballers are only loooking at what wins them games. That is the attitude serious woodsballers might want to try out.

I am not saying this to knock Milsim guys. I just think that walls and terms in paintball are only there to limit and hinder players. Everyone should take something from everyone else.

I have to disagree with you .. i think your logic wall is flawed because if you are thinking within a 20 min rec ball game and a 20 min speedball game then ok i'll give that to you .. 30 pockets don't seem much use.. and having a milsim rig on a speedball field is absurd because you change the style of play.

but..

if you put the perspective in the 8 - 24 hour game where you are in the woods for 1 - 2 hrs at a time all the hydration, vests, pockets make sense..

Vests are used to displace fatigue from your lower back to your shoulders where the muscles are stronger. also, that's why woodsballers use slings for arm fatigue.

when you said that give speedballers camo and pow! they become instant woodsballers, i think that is a wrong assesment too because the tactics are different. i.e. ambushes, tank busting, CQB in buildings. Granted speedball and woodsball use similar disciplines like snapshooting, but the normal sized speedball field doesn't allow for sneaking, crawling, suprize flanking etc.. etc..

I know alot of organized woodsball teams that are sponsored. they may not be as marketable as a speedball team on ESPN but they are still sponsored.

"Speedballers are only loooking at what wins them games. That is the attitude serious woodsballers might want to try out."

What? us woodsballers don't want to win? we use what we need to play comfortably (*sp?)
to stay out in the woods longer, be sneaky and unseen, use tactics that give us not only good movement but superior placement of firepower, not just a stream of firepower.


"I agree. It is important to factor in however that it is better to have alot of firepower and not use, it, then to need it and not have it."

tell that to the pump player that shoots you out with one shot while you have 10 - 13 bps in the air.

my 2 cents as best as i can give them..

[famousgamer]

Well, I didnt mean to offend.

If I was doing a 24 hour game (which I have never ever seen in my life but keep hearing about) I would still travel light like a speedballer. I would in fact travel with 8 people with nothing on them and one dude who is stronger than the average eperson to hold everything for the 8. Water, paint, maps, little pencils, etc. That means that when the action starts up me and my buddies can flush out all the stay puffed marshmallow men on the other team with speed and agility.

We could call that group a "squad", and the team could be made up of these squads. We would call the one dude a camel, in honor of the camel back hyrdation system. He could be a heavy gunner, which does not require him to be all that agile anyhow.

I would way sooner do that then distribute the gear onto the very people that need to assault. I dont want the guys who is providing me with cover fire to be hindered by his packed lunch.

And when you get right down to it, Id rather the guys on my team be able to fire 15 bps, have 2 pound markers, have little to no gear on them hindering their movement, and to use speedball tactics to flush out and bunker people with speed like a blitzkrieg. So.... I guess at that point Id rather be travelling with speedballers who are wearing camo, to put it bluntly.

...and beside, 99 percent of outdoor paintball games last 20-30 minutes long, and then there is a break, so it is practically a moot point.

If the ranges in paintball were longer and farther Id rather have military type people. If our markers fired bullets Id rather have military people. If the tactics for the woods and the speedball range were any different Id rather have military people... but the truth is paintball is paintball regardless of where you play it.

Learning how to take out a team of people while exposing yourself to a minimal degree while firing at ranges of 0-200 feet is the same no matter the background. Woods, or inflatables. No difference, other than how you are blending in.

and christ, why do woodsballer enthusiats always bring up the "pumpers". I have never received even a slight ammount of covering fire from these people with pumps. They never make the big plays. Then they brag about being pumpers. God. Its really cool and old school, so thanks for gracing my team with your 1bps. In the meantime, there is a reason why PRO PAINTBALL ATHLETES dont use pump guns, and its slightly retarded to think of even one doing so... for good reason.

Why do people always knock firing 15 bps, or throwing ropes? What the hell is wrong with that? You see anyone sticking their head up whle being fired at like that? Obviously you have never received that kind of covering fire before. Dude. Its a good thing, trust me. Maybe a dude with a pump can provide that kind of bunkering power? Ummmm, really cool and old-school... but no.

tell that to the pump player that shoots you out with one shot while you have 10 - 13 bps in the air

LOL. The only time in my life I have ever been shot by a pumper is when I was a kid and we all had Bushmasters. Then some of us got semis, and it was made very clear who was more useful to their teamamtes and themselves. I hate it when people say Ill get owned by a pumped. You dont even know me? Does my semi auto paintball travel less fast than that pump paintball?

[Ratzo]

I like the looks of the last rentering.
Definitly some thing I'd consider putting on my MicroMag.

[Tyger]

Well, I didnt mean to offend.
why do woodsballer enthusiats always bring up the "pumpers". I have never received even a slight ammount of covering fire from these people with pumps. They never make the big plays. Then they brag about being pumpers. God. Its really cool and old school, so thanks for gracing my team with your 1bps. In the meantime, there is a reason why PRO PAINTBALL ATHLETES dont use pump guns, and its slightly retarded to think of even one doing so... for good reason.

Why do people always knock firing 15 bps, or throwing ropes? What the hell is wrong with that? You see anyone sticking their head up whle being fired at like that? Obviously you have never received that kind of covering fire before. Dude. Its a good thing, trust me. Maybe a dude with a pump can provide that kind of bunkering power? Ummmm, really cool and old-school... but no.

You have much to learn about paintball, Grasshopper.

[RT Old School]

You have much to learn about paintball, Grasshopper.

With all due respect, enlighten us. The discussion has been pretty polite as I see it, and I think we can keep it going without taking anything too terribly personal.

Anyways, as for a pump player or two having a discernable impact on your typical rec game, I'm not seeing it. Sure, they can have fun and pop a couple of kills, but when they are in a paint fight, (and they will be) no amount of pump action can compare to the machine gun like qualities of the markers of todays players. We all know that the "pumps are more accurate/have better range" theory is bunk. A ball pushed froma tube at 280 fps is going the same place whether its coming from an Ion or a Phantom. (Or a 'mag if its from me) Please note that Im not commenting on any hours, or day long scenario type events. In that case time is on your side and operating slowly and steadily can be to a pumpers advantage. Agility and speed to bunkers and triangulating fire vs opponents are incredilby more important and will have a far greater impact in a match than an old man and his pump. (Being an old man I can say that...it just helps that I'm quick and agile too) And sure, experience plays a large role as well. Tyger, you've been playing for what, close to 15 years more or less? You will probably be able to pull moves on some kid no matter if you're using a slingshot, a pump, or an e-mag. But amongst players of equal skill and experience it comes down to accuracy through volume, volume, volume...and luck. One unfortunte (I believe) aspect is that someone with little or no experience or skill can more or less raise their level of play simply by buying higher end/faster firing markers. In a perfect world everyone would start this game with stock markers and only by earning experience points (God I'm a nerd) could they buy their way up to better guns. Since I dont get to make the rules (not yet anyways...) I'll just have to use my combinations of skill, equipment and determination to play better than my opponents and I'll hope they all have pumps.

[Tyger]

With all due respect, enlighten us. The discussion has been pretty polite as I see it, and I think we can keep it going without taking anything too terribly personal.

...But amongst players of equal skill and experience it comes down to accuracy through volume, volume, volume...and luck.

It was polite.

If you think that the only thing that matters is volumes of paint, you hvae much to learn too. As far as enlightment goes, I've done that. It's a matter of who wants to listen.

-Tyger

[NinjaoftheNight79]

Well, I just think maybe I should throw in my two cents. Before I do that, do know that I refuse to choose a side, this is my own personal feelings. I respect all of you.

To tell you the truth, pumps are good to use if you can do it, especially in a 20 minute woods game. Sure it limits what you can do. Of coarse you can't keep someone covered for a long time. The thing is, the guy with the pump is not about to cover you, he is about to either have you cover him, or go stalk someone so that the one shot he blessed your team with hits someone.

Accuracy is not about volume, ever, period. I don't care who you are or what team you are on, you are not accurate by shooting 15 bps and only hitting them with one ball. Accuracy is measured in precents. If you shoot 15 paintballs and 15 hit, you have the same accuracy level as someone who shot 1 paintball and 1 hit. That accuracy level is 100%. Its like some shooting games. They have a shot accuracy. Even some online mini-FPS games have them. Its all about precents. While many people can put a lot of paint in the air and eliminate a player, it is costly, and most players just don't want to do that. Its not accurate, but it does work. They use pumps to develope a skills such as accuracy, stalking, and limited paint. They take much pride in their accuracy.

Now please don't get me wrong, in no way do I see a pump as the perfect marker. In no way could it ever be the perfect all round marker, even if just used all round in 20 minute games. It is horrible in speed. Sometimes you gotta press with more that one ball. A nice 3-4 bps in controlled bursts is great for the job, but it would be rediculous to do with a pump, and for most players who are trying to learn accuracy (with stock class) it would pretty much kill out all their paint. That is a major weakness that you have using a pump. Pumps are very good for those such as ambushers or stalkers, or just about anyone who needs accuracy in shots instead of the ability to cover another. If you are the one being covered instead, you are fine with a pump.

What a really good thing to do (that I will give Tyger credit for, for this is what he has done) is learn very good skills with a pump, and then switch to a much more rounded marker, such as a high end mech or an electro. Tyger has done this with his E-mag. The thing is, you gotta learn first. Even after you do learn, you can still go back to that pump and use that. The only problem is that you are back to not being able to cover you buddies as easily.

So now I am figuring what you expect my conclusion to be? I don't agree that speedballers should be trying to make elimination with that high rate of fire, for it is pointless. That is where you learn accuracy. Use your BPS for something worth it, such as pressing a few people with a couple of your buddies go take some eliminations, and maybe even get a flag. As for pumps, my god are their whole structure abused as a full time marker unless you don't plan on covering people. They are much better suited for stock class tourneys, practice, and getting that super lightweight marker for when you just feel like going "lonewolf" (not refering to the person). My final conclusion is that when you have skills and you wan't to be an all round player, us a marker that captures all the abilities needed through-out all paintball styles. Basically, either a high end mech or electro. That way you have firepower if needed.

[famousgamer]

Well, paintball accuracy is almost a myth in itself.

A paintball in a non-perfect semi-round object that is too lightweight to be gyroscopicly stabilized. Tom Kaye HIMSELF is quoted as saying:

Accuracy by volume has been, and will remain, the best way to score eliminations.

(he says that here: https://www.automags.org/resource/tec...spinning.shtml )

...and of course he is right. Taking two shots for every one litteraly doubles your chances to hit. No tough math, no physics. Just common sense.

Paintballs are not bullets. Paintballs are not accurate. If I have a teamate that focuses on the "one shot one kill" I have to make every effort to get his head out of his bum. If Tyger were my teammate, I would have to face the fact that his head is simply way to far up there to begin with.

It retarded. On one hand people are supporting pump over semis, and on another forum they are supporting speedball markers that fire 20 bps and hold only 20 rounds at a time (being the Longbow). Its gettin silly.

But, the proof is in the puddin, and pump players provide NO, literally NO advantage on the feild over a semi. Its always the same bulldoodoo arguement that a pump somehow trains a person to be a better shot. Ummm, practice does that... with any marker... not just a pump. In fact, learning how to "follow up shots" with a semi is going to end up being a better skill in the long run, as opposed to "look how quick I can pump my marker for the next shot and re-aim".

Anyhow, its a moot point. I am 30 years old. I played plenty of pump. I got plenty of pump XP (im a nerd too) Perhaps it made me a better shot, but I was certainly glad to graduate to a nice new semi when the time came, and I will never look back. Neither will you.

That is not even counting the fact that the two largest defenders of pumps here (being Ninja and Tyger) use a Tac One and an Emag. These are two markers that would not even EXIST if not for the demand to throw ropes! They got X Valves in them! They got compressed air tanks on and double triggers. They are speedball inspired markers! You got motorized hoppers on there too? Of course you do! Can you guys "stalk" your prey with any less effectivness with those souped-up speedball markers as opposed to your trusty pumps? Of course not!




... and, that is really the marrow of this latest chapter. Speedball has really taught milsim guys a valuable lesson. They have reminded all us woodsy guys that a paintball is not a bullet, and paintball gear does not have to be military spec. We can hybrid, and in doing so we gain the best of both worlds. You actually DO have to throw paint out there from time to time, and while doing so you may as well learn from the masters: the speedbalers. Hey, dont hate, participate.

Tom Kaye himself has decided to ignore and avoid the pursuit of paintball accuracy and instead has dedicated himself to developing markers that fire faster. Tom has dedicated his working life to this kinda stuff. Tom is a smart guy. I think Im gonna go with Tom on this one.

[VFX_Fenix]

I suppose I should also point out that Tom also chose to essencially terminate future development (so far as I can tell) of any new AGD products. The last significant advance in AGD gear was when the E-Mag was created, and even then the E-Mag was almost a year late to hit the market.

Tom is a smart guy, however he isn't an end all, be all, know all guy with all the answers.

There are times when one well placed shot can make the difference between an elimination or a miss. First shot accuracy is something we all should strive for, however that isn't to say that you aren't allowed to lay a rope out after that shot, because, let's face it, if you can get the job done in one that's awesome, but it never hurts to have some insurance on the way. Also being able to hit, on demand, an object at range with a single shot indicates a certain level of skill which would be significantly enhanced by the ability to put several more balls in the air going to the same area.

Accuracy by volume is, and will remain, a hard and fast rule for scoring eliminations. Shooting with a high degree of proficiency will reduce the volume required to make such eliminations (idealy).

Ideal number of shots required to make an elimination - 1
Number of shots which should be taken to ensure an elimination - >1

I actually have no idea where this is going, I'm actually quite suprised that it seems to be as coherent as it is given my current condition.

Anyway.... Long story short...-ish....
Shooting with a gun which has 1) limited ROF or 2) limited ammunition ARE good ways to train to improve first shot accuracy while playing in games or practicing. In both cases the shooter is required to essentially make the most of the opportunities they've been given. These training methods GENERALLY ARE NOT CONSIDERED TO BE EFFECTIVE IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THE GAME AS A WHOLE however they are valuable to the shooter. It is because these limitations are placed against the shooter that they simply cannot rely volume to score their eliminations which logically follows that a shooter who cannot rely on volume must therefore play a more technically sound game to achieve success at a previously obtained rate (say 3 eliminations per game). Thus a player who has better technique given the same tools are another player will have an advantage. Kinda like running around with lead weights on your legs. Sure you won't run as fast with 'em on, but when you take 'em off, you'll be faster.

[borph]

Taking two shots for every one litteraly doubles your chances to hit. No tough math, no physics. Just common sense.

Perhaps you'd be interested in this Autoresponse frame. They are very few and far between, so what he's asking actually IS a fair price (believe it or not).

https://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=194865

I've used the single pull, one-two shot for sniping with great success for many years, and it sure turns heads when folks hear electro-like ripping come from a mechanical marker. Gives you the best of both worlds, and that's what this discussion boils down to. Having the ability to take a carefully aimed shot just as well as laying out some serious covering fire. Tactical versatility is the key.

[RT Old School]

It was polite.

I wasnt trying to imply otherwise, rather, was hoping to encourage everyone to keep it civil.

If you think that the only thing that matters is volumes of paint, you hvae much to learn too.

I obviously do not think that paint volume is the only thing that matters. If I take Tyger, clone him, outfit both of them in identical clothing but give one a pump and 200 rounds (clone 1) and the other a TAC-ONE and 1000 rounds (clone 2), put them both in my specially designed woodsball arena of doom, we dont have to ponder very long on who will the victor. If each of them is sent to a different team, we know who is most likely to contribute more to his teams victory. Which is the more versatile player, more capable of changing his style of play as the game develops. There is nothing that Clone 1 can do that Clone 2 cannot do. Sneak, stealth, one shot, one kill etc. However there is much that Clone 2 can do that Clone 1 cannot. Two identically skilled and experienced players with drasticly different capabilities. Im not trying to argue that pumps are boring or have no place in the game. If pump play fits player X's budget, style of play, for whatever reason, have at it. I'm all for people doing what makes them happy.

As far as enlightment goes, I've done that. It's a matter of who wants to listen

-Tyger

I'm more than ready to listen. Lay it on me.

[famousgamer]

I agree with RT. I can not beleive people are so invested in a paintballs accuracy. Paintballs are not accurate. We all know that.

If anyone is taking the "one shot one kill" approach, I already know they are largley fibbing. For several reasons:
- a paintball will rarley travel in perfect aim, making that first shot fairly random.
- aiming the left/right AND dropoff is hugley random when taking into account the randomness of a paintballs flight in the first place
- a pantball does not always break on a target, thus not counting as a hit
- taking one single shot can not cover your advance, escape, or provide fire support for anyone else on your team

Why not "three shots one kill"? Is that not cool enough? No high fives for that saying?

If a person spent all day using one paintball for each "kill" on the field, I would be amazed! However, it is almost like you assume people here do not infact play the game called paintball. I know paintballs. I know the aiming devices uses on paintball markers. I know that the 'one shot one kill" barley exists in paintball, beyond sheer luck.

Besides, if that first ball doesnt break, yer screwed. I suppose certain people aim is so developed that they could just hit a hard area, like a mask, correct? I tell ya, if that crap talker were on my team Id invite the other team to gain another free teammate just so I could shoot him a few times and learn him good.

...and besides, why the hell would I train on a pump just to end up using a semi. Should I race a VW Beetle to learn how to drive Formula One too? Garunteed the person who trains on the semi will be bettter at the semi. Again, common sense. Thats why these kids nowadays own pumpers in the woods. They are semi automatic savvy, and it shows.

[Tyger]

Well, paintball accuracy is almost a myth in itself.

A paintball in a non-perfect semi-round object that is too lightweight to be gyroscopicly stabilized. Tom Kaye HIMSELF is quoted as saying:

"Accuracy by volume has been, and will remain, the best way to score eliminations."

(he says that here: https://www.automags.org/resource/tec...spinning.shtml )

And he's right, assuming that you have unlimited resources when you play. You give a monkey unlimited paint and a gun that basically shoots for him and that monkey will rack up eliminations as well. It's not skill, it's volume. And if you subscribe to "Halo Theory", it works. But let's reduce everyone to 200 balls. NOW we see what you have for skill. But nobody does that because "That's BOGUS!" (Well, they use a different word, but this is a family forum)

That is not even counting the fact that the two largest defenders of pumps here (being Ninja and Tyger) use a Tac One and an Emag. These are two markers that would not even EXIST if not for the demand to throw ropes! ...Can you guys "stalk" your prey with any less effectivness with those souped-up speedball markers as opposed to your trusty pumps? Of course not!

E-Mags exist to shoot paintballs. Let's still quote Tom here, in the concept that if it CAN shoot 25 a second, it will work flawlessly if you don't push it that far too. I don't NEED the full capacity of the paintgun to do what I do, but it's nice to know it's there.

And to directly answer you, the rattle of the hopper on the e-mag is a little annoying when you're stalking and I keep feeling like it'll give my position away, but other than that yes I'm just fine stalking with the e-mag. Just as I am with my Stroker, or my Phantom, or any other paintgun. The gun does not define me as a player. Which brings me to this:

If I take Tyger, clone him, outfit both of them in identical clothing but give one a pump and 200 rounds (clone 1) and the other a TAC-ONE and 1000 rounds (clone 2), put them both in my specially designed woodsball arena of doom, we dont have to ponder very long on who will the victor.

I fundamentally disagree, because I know how I play with a pump and a semi. In both cases, the play would be different but the result would be the same. It's about the game, not the gun. I play pump, I'm still as effective (or ineffective, if you prefer) as I am with a semi. I point to things like IROC racing, where they take auto racers from several places (NASCAR, Formula-1), stuff them in identical cars and let them run. Is it true that the car they drive makes them a better racer?

So if you cloned me, put my knowledge into both of me, and sicked me against myself, it'd be 50-50 who would win any given game. Skills are skills, guns do not define who is better. If that were the case, anyone with $2000 could be a pro.

I'm more than ready to listen. Lay it on me.

http://webdog.specialopspaintball.com/

-Tyger

[VFX_Fenix]

If anyone is taking the "one shot one kill" approach, I already know they are largley fibbing. For several reasons:
- a paintball will rarley travel in perfect aim, making that first shot fairly random.
- aiming the left/right AND dropoff is hugley random when taking into account the randomness of a paintballs flight in the first place
- a pantball does not always break on a target, thus not counting as a hit
- taking one single shot can not cover your advance, escape, or provide fire support for anyone else on your team

- I don't believe anyone will argue that a paintball is a ballistically superior projectile.

- I don't believe anyone will argue that a paintball will break on target 100% of the time.

- I don't believe anyone will argue that a player who plays (or observes a player) with limited ROF or paint will make for an effective fire support role in any situation.

These training methods GENERALLY ARE NOT CONSIDERED TO BE EFFECTIVE IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THE GAME AS A WHOLE however they are valuable to the shooter. It is because these limitations are placed against the shooter that they simply cannot rely volume to score their eliminations which logically follows that a shooter who cannot rely on volume must therefore play a more technically sound game

Point - The "One Shot, One Kill" (OSOK) approach could be called a motto, an ideal, an aspiration, what ever, not something to always be taken litterally as is often the case by those who practice OSOK, and those who observe OSOK.

Point - Reliance on volume alone is meaningless. A player who shoots 15bps but can't hit the broadside of a barn is about as useful as gasoline to a turbo diesel.

Point - It is possible to place first shots consistantly on or near a given target at varying ranges based on the shooter's experience. Case in point, players who can shoot tossed paintballs out of the air on demand (not unlike tossing a tin can in the air and filling it full of holes). Case in point, players who can reliably hit hopper sized targets at typical paintball ranges within three shots.

Point - Gun fighting, when being put down by people who are laying paint all over your bunker and forced to gun fight it is necesary to be able to put only a handfull of balls in the air and have them either 1) hit the supressing player or 2) force them back into their bunker. The end result of a gunfight is a toss-up largely, the only way to win a gun fight is either through luck or through what ammounts to muscle memmory, timing, and smart play or any combination there-of. To consistantly win though requires good technical play (you know, training and experience) with a little luck tossed in to keep things interesting.

Try and think a little outside the box and beyond the phrase "One shot, One kill" to what ammounts to, as I have sudgested, a motto. THEN work through the concept that people who play with limited rigs are not there to do all the things that a player with a HALO and a DM6 will be able to do and will not volunteer to fill those roles which require more paint and higher ROF's than they are able to provide.

Your argument hinge on the issue of flexibility, and you're right, a player with limited ROF and/or Paint has lost degrees of flexibility.

..and besides, why the hell would I train on a pump just to end up using a semi. Should I race a VW Beetle to learn how to drive Formula One too? Garunteed the person who trains on the semi will be bettter at the semi. Again, common sense. Thats why these kids nowadays own pumpers in the woods. They are semi automatic savvy, and it shows.

In short, yes you should. Why? Because being able to drive a fast car isn't something that comes naturally in the same way that anyone who's ever learned to drive stick can't just jump in their first time and go spin doughnuts in the parking lot of Wally World. There is a progression of skill which is fostered by varying styles of play, just as with cars of carious performance. The case I believe you're both making is that, if we stick Joe Blow average (you know, the closest they've been to a race was in a drag to beat the CRX next to them off the line before the lane he's in disapears and has to fall in behind) in a Honda Civic and have him race against his identical clone at, let's say, Leguna Seca, who's driving a Formula One car, Joe's F-1 clone would beat the living snot out of him. I would contend that the Civic driver would not only win, but still be alive at the end of the race. Why? Because driving a complicated track with a very high performance car for the first time is extremely dangerous and potentially fatal. However, no one's died playing paintball because they had a gun which had too much performance for them.

Things shared in common though -
To think that any professional race car driver one day decided, hey, I'll race F-1 cars tomorrow and then do it when they've never even driven anything with more performance than a 1986 Chevette is stupid. Similarly to think that anyone who plays in the MLB magically said, "I'll sign on with the San Diego Padres tomorrow" and makes the cut when the closest thing they've played to real baseball is catch with their old man in the front yard is also idiotic. Finally to believe that giving newbie X a DM6, full DYE gear, a V35 HALO, and 30 cases of paint will be a contributing member of XSV on their active roster is also dumb.

People who achieve a high level of accomplishment and recognition in ANY field do so through raw tallent, hard work, and training. Not to mention grinding away at all the "lame stuff" to get to the top of the pile. Go to driving school, they don't instantly take you out to the test course with their best cars, they start you in the classroom, go over theory and basics of driving. Prove compitence then you go out in some POS 80 horse automatic to the track with a trainer behind the wheel. Then you get to go out with the trainer in your passenger seat. After you've proven compitence/mastery of the basics of driving (starting, stopping, cornering, braking, blah blah blah) Move onto a manual with a bit more power, again, lather rinse repeat until mastery is displayed in all things until they give you the keys to the Ferrari/Lotus/Lambo/etc. and you get to go out and have fun on your own. Gotta crawl before you can pole vault.

Learning to throw ropes is worthless if the person throwing those ropes doesn't understand the concepts of laning, or even have a basic understanding or skill of how to put paint in the area they're trying to hit.

Consider that all styles of play fall under the catagory of "Paintball".

If styles were changed to "Classes" (and they are for some) then consider Pump guns with 15rnd stick tubes and 12g CO2 AKA "Stock Class". Easiest to learn basics with, why? Limited paint, Limited ROF. When playing in an all Stock class format the pace of the game is slow enough so that techniques can be developed, moving, shooting, reloading, strategies, concepts, etc. I believe it's easier to learn basics of paintball when you don't have 15bps flying around your head because it eliminates many of the fears that new players have, namely "OMG THEY'RE SHOOTING AT ME I DON'T WANT TO GET HIT!!!!" C'mon, newbies have a hard enough time poking their heads out normally without having someone with the latest and greatest hammering away on their bunker, even if that other player is a newbie themself. Let the newbie focus on the nit-picky stuff and finer points of the game.

Move along to pump class, remove some of the tedious reloading of both paint and air, still limitted ROF, the player is forced to change tactics and skill sets are refined, moving becomes more difficult because reloading has largely been removed, ROF is still low enough to provide for flexibility and mistakes to be made.

Move to mechanical semi-auto. Again, pace of the game increases, tactics need to be altered, skills refined, there's less room for error and sloppy play as ROF increases.

Finally Open Semi-Auto. The so called "Big Dogs" use these guns, ROF's are as high as they'll ever get. Performance of the gear is at its peak. So what separates the bad from the good from the great players? Skill, tallent, and experience. Room for errors are reduced significantly because of the ammount of paint in the air.

So where does that leave us? Well, mostly it leaves us with a problem. Most players don't bother to develope base skills sets because they just want to go out and have fun every once in a while. This means that base skills must be developed in the field under conditions which allow neither the ability nor flexibility to develope those skills (i.e. the learning curve is exceptionally steep for players with minimal regular experience). Because of this environment the player is convinced that the only way to be effective is to lay massive ammounts of paint out and focus is shifted to shooting fast.

Shooting is only one aspect of paintball.

Moving is also an aspect of paintball, and its something that new players need as much encouragement as possible to develope, however if the focus is shooting fast then, well game time will be spent sitting in a bunker shooting at potentially nothing and still getting shot out.

Vision is another aspect, again, focusing on shooting fast also developes tunnel vision.

Advanced skill sets such as communication, strategy and vision as well as basic skill sets such as shooting accurately, movement, and bunker usage are lost when the focus is placed on new ballers to "just shoot as fast as you can."

Again, its because the enviroment that players are learning in are extremely deletarious to fostering development of these skill sets. Removing the ability to perform was has become the emphasis for some players is the only way to develope these skill sets in a practical manner. By forcing the issue of you must move to get into positions to shoot other players, you must communicate with other people on your team to know where other players are and make sure you can make moves, to be able to effectively communicate all the things that you yourself can see on the field to help out your team mates, to coordinate movements and actions to facilitate any number of things, to avoid getting shot by being predictable.

If a player with a DM6 can make 2 eliminations per game in speedball suddenly is given a pump gun, their effectiveness with drop to practically zero. Given time to develope skills and tactics to the point where they can once again make 2 eliminations per game with their pump gun, then give the DM6 back, I believe that player will be hell-on-wheels the next time they go out.

No one can progress in anything unless they are challenged. Without a challenge skills dull. To maintain skills without a challenge in terms of players it becomes necesary to make the game challenging for the player again to improve skill.

Just as any professional devotes copious ammounts of time to practice to maintain success, it is necesary to do so at any level of play in paintball. Play paintball in any capacity regularly for 8 years and you're bound to be a good player, stop for a year then come back, be ready to "dust off" those skills and fail a bit where things once were easy.

[famousgamer]

good points.. but one can learn any paintball related skill with a pump just as with a semi. Makes no difference. Limitations do not promote higher learning.

In fact, learning how to "run and gun" and "following up shots" can only be learned with a semi, and these are skills you simply need as basics. Pumps are useless here.

So, Id rather stick a semi in a newbs hands over a pump, and teach them the same skills that the pump player would learn.

People are going to claim they are just as effective during a game of paintball whether they are using a pump or a semi. The truth boils down to: When you need the heavy fire support or the single shot, a semi delivers. A pump only gives you the single shot. To me, it is that simple.

Stick pumps on a pro speedball team against a pro team with semis and they are gonna get mopped. We all know it,. They know it, and thats why it simply AINT NEVER DONE. You think those pro paintball players can not aim?

If you even check out those vids on your site Tyger with you guys playing 3 on 3 with pumps it is rather dramatic how different the dynamic is over a pro game of speedball.

Semi automatic rate of fire =
- bunkering power
- suppresive fire for yourself
- suppresive fire for your teammates
- the ability to run and gun
- the abiity to aim and not have to re-aim in between each shot
- the ability to follow up shots to hit your target
- the ability to hit a person 10 times instead of one time per second

...and so on. These are things a pump cant do. I still dont understand how "playstyle" can put a pump on the same level as a semi, anyday.

... and that is ignoring the blaring fact that: good aim is good aim, with a pump or a semi. So, knowing that, why limit yourself to a semi? Well, dont bother answering that, because we all have anyways. WE ALL USE SEMI'S!

[VFX_Fenix]

good points.. but one can learn any paintball related skill with a pump just as with a semi. Makes no difference. Limitations do not promote higher learning.

In fact, learning how to "run and gun" and "following up shots" can only be learned with a semi, and these are skills you simply need as basics. Pumps are useless here.

Hence the altering of tactics when moving into semi-auto from a limited rof/pain situation. My argument isn't that you can't learn to play paintball with a semi. My argument is that playing with a pump against other pumps allows for basic skill sets to be learned in a more friendly environment because there's less going on at any given time. "Running and Gunning" and "Following up shots" aren't the most basic of skill sets (to me) vision, communication, movement, accuracy (being able to hit a small target uppon demand with minimal shots at a reasonable range). Learn to crawl before you run'n gun.

The faster things happen the steeper the learning curve.

If a player starts with a pump at an average field these days they will face an even steeper learning curve because they're behind in firepower. However I still contend that anyone who can reach a high level of success with a pump will do far better with a semi because they've been forced into what ammounts to a highly technical style of play.

Think about it this way.

With a good Turbo and a lot of engine work you can get 300hp from a 2.4L engine. So why settle for 300hp from a 3.5L engine? Because if you apply the same type engine work to that 3.5L you'll be able to get well over 500hp from it.

The turbo and engine work being basics of play, engine being base gun. Maybe it doesn't work for you. I'm convinced that you're fixated on the inherent differences between pump and semi capability and placing those capabilities on a scale and saying "semi>>pump".

The example with the Pro Teams is also a moot point because we can assume that since both teams have reached the title of "Pro" they have similar skill levels and in that case the mantra of "Accuracy by Volume" wins hands down. However consider a Pro team on the field with a pumps vs. a Rookie team with their semi's. Do you still vehemently believe that the Pro team would loose? I highly doubt they would, I've seen a Nov team with PT Extremes mop the floor in a 10 on 25 game vs. walk-ons.

Skillz make Good Players
Gatz do not make Good Players

[borph]

Skillz make Good Players
Gatz do not make Good Players

You shouldn't bag on this guy, he is SO right on. Whenever I hear the term "woodsball" I long for the days when "pump class" was cutting edge! I can vouch for everything he said regarding the lotek approach being a better environment for beginning players to hone the MOST basic of their skills: teamwork. Believe me, it DOES make a HUGE difference. When ROF wasn't part of the equation, paintball was definitely a much more challenging and interesting game IMHO. So few squids ever experience that graduation nowadays. Mommy and daddy buy Junior the most expensive electro they can afford right off the bat just so he's not outgunned on the speedball court by little Timmy Jones. Too bad they'll both be outmaneuvered amongst the trees by some lame arse old Piranha toting geezer like me, just for spite.

[famousgamer]

Well, I will be the first to agree that pump versus pump is some excellent paintball. It is nice to concentrate on single shots at a time, and serious tactics... to make up for the lack of firepower.

I loved it when everyone had pumps. Every barrel sucked. Most paint sucked. Everything sucked, so everything rocked as a result! Confused yet? I think you know what I mean. Since were all equally limited we all ended up being equal.

The along came high tech paintball markers and advancments, and we all know the story from there. I took the approach of "if you cant beat em... join em!" About 90 percent of the tactics I had learned to out-manouver another team was replaced by the ability to outright bunker them into submission, with high rates of fire. The people with the great markers gained a huge advantage.. and it kept advancing and advancing...

So, nowadays I could not be without my semi. Semi are the best of all worlds. With a Stiffi and a great mag running on compressed air I know that each single shot will be as accurate as it can be... but I am still gonan take at least three shots at each target. That is where the rate of fire comes in. In one aim I can hit someone three times, and I am never going to give that up.... unless....

if there was a local stock class I would play it for sure. Not only would it be fun to be similarly limited in that way, but also stock players tend to be more mature and enjoyable to team with.

[joracle]

This thread moves too fast for me. . .

I'm responding to last page's discussion of vests, pod pacs, etc..

You need to remember that a lot of these players (outdoor/scenario types) aren't just playing capture the flag. They play all-day scenario games and these games take a lot more gear -- more paint, more air, more water, radios, food and more ancillary stuff (because the staging area's sometimes a mile away.)

Vests like the Spec Ops Broadsword were designed for the scenario gamer in mind and they fit the bill perfectly. Pod-pack guys run into trouble in games like D-day (I've done it both ways.)

Spec Ops also offers a tourney/scenario style hybrid vest/pack. It's called the Dagger vest and it's a pod pack with a couple of pockets (radio and ID pocket) attached to a light shoulder harness.

Personally, I wear my Broadsword vest playing small Capture the Flag games. I hate pod packs because:

- They suck for remote air (holds the bottle further away from the gun)
- They tend to slide down my waist (or they have to be mega-tight)
- They don't have a place to hold a radio
- They don't have grenade pockets
- They don't hold other gear (like tools, swabs, my cell phone, etc.)
- All the weight is supposed to perch on my hips. I prefer placing some of the weight on my shoulders.
- There are few pod pack designs in camo (SmartParts, mostly) and the camo ones are hard to find.

I've owned dozens of pod packs over the years and I don't love them. Actually, I went to a vest and never looked back.

[joracle]

Oh, and I'd love to see Famousgamer's ideal design for a woods pod pack (seriously.)

I might just be able to talk someone into making it. . .

[joracle]

Of course, this is one of the most worn-out topics on paintball forums, but I wanted to see Famousgamer's opinion fleshed out a little.

With all things being equal (players of equal experience, equal familiarity with their guns, equal paint, equal cover, etc.,) will a tourney player tag the woodsplayer first or vice-versa.

In my experience (playing with the Q-bow against tourney players,) the tourneyballer will try to "instinct shoot" me, which means he'll shoot a rope and walk it into me. First, he fires five to ten balls at his best guess. Then, he sees where they impact and adjusts fire.

I will take an extra millisecond to find my sight and place it on the target, then I'll fire a small rope while adjusting for upward elevation (accommodating for unkown distance.)

In my experience with the QBow, I have a consistent advantage in this gunfight. Despite his volume (and the chances of a lucky shot,) his method takes a fraction of a second longer to put paint on a target.

Not only does he have to find his elevation by trial and error, but he has to find his windage by guesswork as well.

I have to acquire my sight (which takes a moment,) but then I know my windage and I have a pretty good starting place for my elevation too. In my experience, with all things being equal, I have a distinct advantage with my QBow against a tourneyballer of equal skills.

Of course, this assumes a gunfight in the woods, where nobody tries to "close lanes" with predictive fire (shooting where you think someone may cross or appear.) Since there are so many lanes on a woodsball field, shutting down lanes is arguably impractical and it forces players to practice snap shooting instead of hosing lanes.

What's your opinion of my logic?

[famousgamer]

I agree to everything you are saying, but to a limited degree.

You see, I have been there in that same situation lining up a shot with my dot, while being rained upon by a fast semi. The problem is, if the semi-auto operator knows what they are doing, even just a little, they can keep that small part of my upper body from exposing itself while aiming. Everyone is this world if effectivley bunkered by being rained upon by heavy firepower. So, in that cae, the semi auto operator always has the advantage.

If I get the drop, instead of throwing and adjusting arope of paint, I will instead aim the shot and fire 3 to 5 shots at each target. Thats the difference. While not being bunkered I can play the game I want to play.

When LONEWOLF went out and played with his Q Bow, he discribed it best by explaining he was forced into playing "their game". That means when he was dicovered he was forced into a heavily suppressed advance or retreat, speedball style. A Q Bow is too big, too long, and too cumbersome in this situation. Luckly its rate of fire and ammo capacity can keep up tho.

...and that is my experience as well. When I get the drop, I aim. When they get the drop, they spray. Id rather take aiming. But, if we get into a 50/50, they have the upper hand if they know what they are doing, and I have to retreat or else get a bunker style speedball spray in the back.



As far as vests....

I dont even mind them that much.. until I see the pricetag. A paintball belt can be as cheap as 15 dollars for a fairly great belt, and 5 dollars for suspender straps to take the weight off. A vest jumps to 200 and up.

That means, a vest has to be at least 13 times better than a belt to be worth the money.. and it isnt. They are nice, yes, but not 13 times nicer than a belt.

Seriously tho, in a 20 minute round of paintball...
- who uses grenades anyways? I dont know one person who does, seriously.
- Also, I am not going to play paintball with my cell phone on me. That a little silly.
- My 5 dollars straps take the weight off my belt, thus saving me at least 100 dollars in the process.
- My 15 dollars belt (the Gen X one) holds my 68 ci tank nicley.
- Tools are for the staging area, not my backpack.
- Water, snacks and word jumbles are also for that staging area
- I do not, and do not know anyone who uses a radio in a 20 minute round of paintball

and so on. In a 20 minute round of paintball it is important to carry nothing except for the things you need ala speedball. Thats fast. In an all day sort of thing, YES, that vest looks great! A vest would be a perfect way to carry everything. Its too bad the all day sort of scenarios are extremley rare. I would venture to guess that 99 percent of outdoor games are measured in 20 to 30 minute rounds.

I would LOVE to take on the challenge of designing a paintball vest. One that is trully based in paintball ergonomics. Now there is a fun thread. I can telly you right now, there would be two styles: the 3 to 24 hour scenario style, and the 20 minute round style. Those are 2 totally different types of demands on a player, and should be 2 totally different styles of vest.