Tactical Automag prototype thread. Please help.

[RT Old School]

Yeah, I dont think any amount of debate is going to sway me from my position that "light and tight is right" in terms of my marker and gear setup. I've seen and played long enough to have a firm grasp on what consistantly works best under varying playing conditions, and versatilty is the key!

In respect to vests...I agree with famousgamer about grenades, cell phones, tools, snacks, radios etc. Again, I'm only commenting on standard 20-30 minutes games. Since the advent of level 10 I dont even take a squeegie out with me anymore. In the incredibly rare instance of a ball break I'll shoot through it and squeegie at the next pause in play.

As for the expensive vests, sheesh. Spec Ops came out with some lighter, smaller vests, I think they called them "Dagger" or something, a couple of weeks ago. People are raving about these things like they were the second coming of christ. With their $125 price tag, I was like "They look pretty much like a $15 LBV you can get on ebay or at an Army Navy store." I also made some smart alecky comment that if one wasnt careful, they were going to look as pretty as a speedball player with all the fancy spec ops stuff. One response was "Are they the only ones (speedballers) who should have $200 pants? Why cant we have $200 clothes too?" I guess its like everything else. Why buy designer anything when you can get a similar version at Wal-mart for $20. People have different financial priorities, and if they can afford it, more power to 'em. I for one take a measure of pride when someone asks me about some piece of equipment or clothes and I tell them how I modified it or made it on the cheap and saved a ton of moolah. I'm not like one of santa's elves, sitting in a workshop slaving at creating stuff all day. But I'm also not above taking a needle and thread and scissors to my stuff and altering it for my playing style. If an hour or two of sewing means I've saved $125, thats two more Saturdays worth of paintballing I can fund! Anyone have any cool clothing or vest creations out there?

[famousgamer]

I totally agree.

Light and tight is right for standard games. 99 percent of games. Games with 20 to 30 minute rounds.

Not only do I not use vests and sippy straws and stuff because of the monitary investment, but also for stealth. I am ten times more camoflaged without all that crap on. The human eye is drawn to things with hard outlines and un-natural shapes (straight lines, round lines, perfect lines, etc.) Therefore, that vest is contributing to get the wearer noticed out there, and when the paintball range is so short to begin with you need every opportunity to conceal yourself.

I wish to get my rig so that I dont even have to use the suspender straps, as they make two huge blacks lines that scream "I do not exist in nature, notice me!" I am waiting for a new leg rig to come in. If that works, it will hold my bottle and my paint in one spot, and I wont need suspenders, only a belt.

This is the benifit of having fewer outlines on your rig...


No vest on means no hard lined shaped that are easy for the human eye to pick out in nature. Notice how easy it is to spot my hands. Forgot to put my gloves on. Less outlines means better stealth. When I wear a ghillie veil over my head it is the closest a person can get to being invisible in a forest, without wearing a full ghillie suit (which I personally never will).


This is basicly a speedball inspired mask (Profiler) converted for woods use. If all speedball stuff were camo like this, it would be the natural choice to wear during games. Smallest profile, promotes bounches, best anti-fog. Even the cap I wear promoted bounces. Hey, dont hate. I just wanna win games for me and my friends.


MARPAT is particularly suited for camoing things that have hard lines, as it makes an attempt to disrupt patterns and shapes that are recognizable to the human eye. I just did this for fun. I use my Q Loader now for the silent kill and low profile. This represents a marker that is a speedball/woodsball hybrid (would be even better with the level 10 and X Valve). Even that Ricochet promotes bounces. Not a bad speedwoodsball choice for most players.

[famousgamer]

Oh yeah, speaking of sewing...

I got a 10 dollar MARPAT bandana and have sewn that into a neck protector. I used a roll of closed cell foam, double thick, and sewn it into a quilted pattern. My girlfriend helped. Saved money, and matches my camo so it doesnt stick out.

I also use a MARPAT coil cover. You can find these online. If you go remote, you need one. That simple. Best 10 bucks youll spend in a while. Going remote can be a drag tho, so air on is still a great choice for many reasons. I just like having a light marker, as I still am using and babying a classic valve, which are kinda heavy to begin with.

I am strongly considering sewing compartments for a Q pod on each arm, but I have to prototype that to see how it works. Where did I put that roll of tape?

[RT Old School]

Wow, thats pretty cool. So is that cammo tape you have on the mask and gun or did you paint it? I saw some of the duracoats that spec ops have done, and they look pretty nice. I have an artistically inclined friend with an airbrush set and was thinking about looking into the duracoat. It would probably be worth it if we could do a couple of 'guns at once.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

Man i go away for a couple of days and look at what youve done. i have a couple of new surprise for you guys out there. just trying to sell my longbow kit first i spent to much money already!!! i am seting up a new hybrid for woodsball 30mins and under. stay tuned

[famousgamer]

This stuff is a printed and plastic laminated vinyl. Its used on exterior signs and stuff. I got some made and have not turned back. I find it a little more durable then paint, as it does not chip off.

I like the idea of duracoat, but the Spec Ops digital woodland pattern is bad. It is not anywhere close ot being as effective as MARPAT. Opsgear is even worse. Theirs just looks like little colored blocks, all similar proportions. It actually makes a pattern that ATTRACTS the human eye!

I just scanned MARPAT and use that. I figure if it is good enough for a country that spends about a third of its fiscal budget on military tech, then its good enough for me. Why Spec Ops and Opsgear didnt try to tag along Ill never know.

And, here is a nice example of why you want to limit your outlines... and use MARPAT



Mr Spec Ops there is not going to be able to rely on his camo to hide himself, period. The camo he is wearing is rendered totally useless because of all those outlines, hard shapes, and un-natural colors. I am not saying my uniform is perfect, but at least I am on the right track.

[famousgamer]

... and LONEWOLF, I am stoked to check out your new creation. If you wanna sell that TAC ONE, gimme a PM.

[joracle]

Famous. . . That looks very cool. What do you plan to do with your pod pack to match the digi-cam?

When I started reading this thread a few weeks ago, I was inspired to go to work on a very similar concept.

I bought two Xmags and I've spent the last two weeks camo-ing up the following (with Special Ops Duracoat paint

- One Xmag in Spec Ops digi camo,
- One Xmag in Spec Ops ACU camo,
- One Tac-one in camo leaf.

Each one will go with one of three kinds of camo styles, digi, ACU and Action Ghillie. I love all of the camo styles, but I use them in different seasons and different parts of the country. I'll post pictures in a couple of weeks. The Digi Xmag is done, but I'm still working on the ACU and the leaf guns.

Regarding your response to my previous post:

- Grenades are the great under-utilized resource of paintball. Seriously. They are NOT for newbs who get their rocks off playing army. You can seriously destroy entrenched opposition with grenades. I've been carrying (and using) a Big Boy F-bombs for the last month or so and I'm astounded at how many eliminations I've picked up with them. Paintballers just don't think to use their grenades. It depends on the field (grenades don't work well if the field is speedball-style or has a heavy canopy,) but grenades can seriously alter the course of a game. I just watched on Saturday as one of our new Factory players wiped out a veteran player with an F-bomb. Also, three weeks ago at an SPPL scrimmage, I watched as a guy took out four dudes with three grenades in one game -- and these were serious players he was against. It's just that nobody thinks to use them or to keep them in mind when they're playing.
- Yes, I carry my cell phone (all the time.) And, yes, I know it's pathetic. Of course, it's off or on vibrate while I play. Mostly.
- Radios are another incredibly under-utilized resource. Unless you're a lone wolf walk-on type, you can mangle the competition if your team can communicate across a large (larger than an airball field) field. If you're playing with a team, you should be using a radio.
- Tools -- If you're playing on a commercial field, I realize that tools are forbidden. But, when you're playing outlaw, you're usually a long walk from the car and carrying tools, etc. is just more practical.

Much of your criticism is based on cost -- "Yes this and that product is great but it's not worth the money." Gamer, you're into personally making one-off gear for yourself. (I love doing my own garage-fabricated stuff for paintball, too.) But, most people don't have that kind of time or talent. They want great, innovative product that they can buy. If you figure in your time and talent, that cool mask you just made probably cost you around $300. THAT'S expensive.

Anyway, Special Ops takes great ideas like the ones you've developed and then decides if it can be manufactured, profitably and durably, and offered to the wider world of paintball players.

And, who ever said that life is better when you spend less on your paintball addiction? I've always LOVED spending money on my hobbies.

[joracle]

Famous. . . You may want to consider a mask camo that physically breaks up the outline of your mask. I've always loved the old SmartParts Goggleflage. I think it makes a HUGE difference on the woods field. Since your head is the part of you that's most often exposed, the broken outline can make a big difference.

If you want to make your own, you can buy the 1/8 to 1/4 in. foam rubber at an upolstery supply store then glue the MARPAT fabric over it with this iron-on glue they make for bonding rubber to cloth (we've tested this and it works.) Then, you can carve up your own broken-outline pattern.

In my opinion, it makes twice as much difference as camo-ing your gun (not that camo-ing your gun doesn't look totally cool.)

[joracle]

Famous, dude, you're high.

The MARPAT (against the forest background) blows against the SO Digi Cam. Just look at the picture. The digi breaks up the runner's outline and the MARPAT completely stands out. I don't think the photo made the point you were after.

The US and Canadian militaries (the developers of the digi-style camo) made this pattern for use as a hybrid desert and forest pattern. It doesn't do a great job of either. There's far too much brown/tan for forest play and it's too dark for desert.

In my experience, you're better off with a forest pattern, like SO Digi, for the woods and another desert pattern for off-season (fall and early spring) and desert (such as SO ACU.) I know that makes life more expensive, but camo that's way off is almost as bad as wearing tourney gear.

The digi pattern (whether it's MARPAT, ACU or forest digi) is a very tight pattern which works well at close ranges, but tends to blob-up at longer distances (over 100 yards.) That makes it good for paintball (average distance 30-50 yards.)

The SO picture you show is a player wearing SO Digi Marauders and a Woodland vest. The grey beanie cap doesn't help matters. If you took a picture of the same guy wearing a digi vest and a digi headband, it'd look even better.

[famousgamer]

I dunno man. That Spec Ops vest sticks out like a sore thumb. Its all outlines and black bars. The human eye is drawn to that. That is not counting the Orange Spec Ops logos that are all over their clothing.

The US and Canadian militaries (the developers of the digi-style camo) made this pattern for use as a hybrid desert and forest pattern. It doesn't do a great job of either. There's far too much brown/tan for forest play and it's too dark for desert.

Thats just simply not true. There are three types of American breakup pattern, being Marpat woodland, Marpat desert, and ACU for the regular military. ACU is meant for the forest and desert. Obviously, Marpat woodland is made for the woods, not the desert, ever. That is what Marpat desert is for.

Also, in every test MARPAT beat out traditional woodland camo. Every test. Wet, infa red, every one cam up with Marpat being the choice. The American military is known to spend a few bucks on this sorta thing.

I also think that Spec Ops pattern is way too green. Its green on green. It needs brown. Id rather be wearing too much brown instead of not enough. The Spec Ops is a 3 color pattern, as opposed to the 4 color Marpat. Also, the contrast is too high on the Spec Ops pattern, from the lightest to darkest shade.

I used to own the Fusion pants from Spec Ops, and they stuck out like sore thumbs on the feild too. That is not even counting the fact that they crinkle and swish like a babies diaper when you are stalking around. They had white stitching that stood out, black bars all over the place. The green on green was WAY too bright and un-natural. The human eye detects that kind of thing with ease. These pants sucked for paintball and I sold them on Ebay. I hear Spec Ops is going to discontinue the line of original Fusion stuff, but that may just be a rumor.

I also have huge faith in Marpat because I have been a student of its research and development for years, and I know what it is meant to do. If you would like an interesting read on how Marpat is head and shoulders above the rest, read this: http://www.militarymorons.com/misc/misc.html Just scroll down to the written part. This is some of what went on:

The uniforms were then taken down to Quantico and tested in a wide variety of vegetation, always using the current issue uniform for control. Sunlight, shadow, dawn, daylight, dusk, night, grass, bushes, trees, shrubs, wood piles. You name it, we tested it there and at all different distances with naked eye, optics and night vision. It was hands down. The digital pattern blew the others away in every single test we did over a two day period. At that point it would be decided that the digital pattern would be the one used in the new uniform.

Another great website has this to say on regular wodland camo:

The green and brown used in the pattern dominate the overall color scheme, both of which are close to their primary value. These colors (found in tratitional woodland camo) are not suitable for most wooded environments. The excess use of green in the pattern has been determined to more often than not draw attention to the wearer. In addition, each colored "blotch" on the pattern has well-defined edges, causing abrupt transitions between colors. These qualities of pattern and color on our current uniform tend to interrupt the flow of space and attract attention to the wearer.

This was also interesting, as far as green or brown...

Colors can also be perceived as natural or man-made. Drab colors blend more evenly in a natural environment than do primary colors, which are more commonly found outside of nature. Primary colors, in this sense, apply to the true value of the color. True blue and true yellow mixed in equal amounts make true green. Although different shades and hues of green can be found in any forest, true green is not common - therefore, a target indicator. The same can be said for true brown, which is composed of equal parts of true red, true yellow and true blue. Shades of brown are more commonly found in nature than green.

There is lots more ot read on that site: http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/mcub/utili...tesConcept.htm Remember, these are not opinions. This is scientific research, yeilding ironclad evidence. This is what millions get poured into everyday.

Marpat is simply some of the best camo out there, with thousands of dollards dedicated towards it research and development. You may beleive that Spec Ops has surpassed its effectivness by replacing the colors and making them brighter and more un-natural, but I dont think so. All that green on green has been shown to attract attention, especially the shades of green that Spec Ops uses. All that green is used to fool the consumer into thinking it will work better in a forest, but the truth is the exact opposite. DO you honestly think the US military got it wrong, with millions spent on research and development? Thats a bit silly.

The only other camo I like more than Marpat is Crye's Multicam. You just cant get everything to match when using multicam because it is not that popular... yet. Ill use Marpat until people start using Multicam more often. I hear it is also going to be the new pattern for the Marines in some time to come.




As far as breaking up my outline, I already have a scrim veil I throw over my head and shoulders, and another for my marker. Its basicly a ghille that covers every part I choose to expose while firing, and effect zero percent of my mobility. I have about 500 very small zip ties, and I just tie the natural vegitation to the nets. Works better than Action Ghillie, because it is the perfect match to the foliage around you. With Marpat underneath, you are as good as invisible while not moving. Takes about 20 minutes of prep when you start the day tho. Not tons of fun, but worth it.

Im all about the goggleflage! Im gonna get some of that ASAP! I hope they come in sections large enough to fit VForce masks.

So, yeah, the camo on the gun and mask is really just for a little added camoing, and mainly looks. Im vain like that.

Hey Joracle. Can you buy Spec Ops duracoat paint and bake your own stuff? That would be pretty cool to try out!

[famousgamer]

Oh yeah, this pretty much sums up what I will be using for my gear pack for 20 to 30 min games:



There are differences with mine tho. One is that the pack is more towards the side and slightly towards the rear. This will keep it out of the way for belly crawling. Also, mine has a belt that goes around the one leg for stability, and is very stable. Mine holds a carbon fiber (very light) 68 ci tank and one spare Q Loader pod.

Ill post pics when I get mine. I could only order it on Olive Drab. I would have rather had it in Coyote brown, but I suppose I could always sew or glue Marpat over top.

[famousgamer]

Check this out...



I removed our pale hands from the pics and the Spec Ops guys beanie.

You know what you see on that Spec Ops guy, even from the distance? STRAPS! Lots of hard black lines and straps. The Marpat breaks it up and blends in.

I realize noiw that I got to cover that white VForce logo on my lens ASAP. I am also gonna get some goggleflage, as my head is very visable.

If you look at the chests alone, there is no contest. That vest invites people to notice it. It is that simple. The black bars in my mask are bad, but not as bad as all the lines in the vest.

[ahellers]

just wondering gamer but are you still planing on making a gun or are you just intent on blasting spec ops now.
im dont really like spec ops my self but this thread is getting kind of boring.
t

[famousgamer]

just wondering gamer but are you still planing on making a gun or are you just intent on blasting spec ops now.
im dont really like spec ops my self but this thread is getting kind of boring.

Then dont come here anymore. If you need any more time managment coaching please let me know.

And yeah, I got my CMS adapter in the mail, plus an extra elbow for my 90 degree and 90 degree turn. Its the last things I need for my Longbow killer.

[ahellers]

a simple yes or know would have worked there touchy. but thanks for the advice, i think that i will take it.
edit: rereading my other post a better word choice would have to be Ridicules as aposed to boring.
t

[Coralis]

Ridicules uhm dont you mean ridiculous ?

[famousgamer]

You know, to a person that tends not to think to hard about any one thing, I can definitley see how rediculous/boring this thread must appear.

We have to also consider that this thread has influenced hundreds of viewers, who are "lurkers". We are helping people make good gear choices by debating each side of each debate. It may get emotional, or even boring at times, but I like to think about the lone person who skims this thread and learns a thing or two about how to spend their hard earned cash.

Anyhow, just did a bunch of work on my vest designs. You might think I got alot of time on my hands but I feel I just manage my time well and work fast, if you were wondering. I will be developing my sketches for my own personal portfolio, as reps from Spec Ops, Opsgear, Q Loader and various other campanies now frequent this thread. I dont want to sell myself too short after all, so I will not be posting images on this thread anytime soon.

I really do beleive that minimal outlines will make for a great rig tho. That is the theme. Minimal outlines that give away the wearer, and let the broad feilds of camo BDUs do what they were designed to do, without the pack giving the wearer away. All my designs are focused around the 20-30 minute game (easily 99 percent of woodsball games) and have a remote air on or off option.

I am sorry I can not contribute more pics of my snipermag, as I am still waiting for parts to come in. I did get a Stiffi barrel for the rig, and a new remote line, but the important stuff is yet to come. Having the packs to design is a welcome break from the marker stuff.

Oh yeah, Ive been using the Q Loader. At first, that Q Loader gave me some serious concern. I was wondering if Id ever be able to master the thing. About 45 minutes later I did, and I was amazed it ever intimidated me in the first place. I feel this is a similar thing with most people that get it.

If you are interesting in the Q, GLUE YOURSELF TO THE MAUAL! Memorize it, and read the ENTIRE thing before assembling or disassembling anything. Even tho the manual itself is quite counter-intuative, once you get the hang of reading it you will be on your way. The only thing the Q Loader is lacking is simple human erganomics, in the manual and instructions. Everything else, including customer support is amazing. Simply a great example of a young company that is going to be a mojor contributor for the decade to come.

If you have any specific questions about the Q post em here, and it can be somethng else to discuss.

[famousgamer]

Oh yeah, i have to include this little blurb.

If you like my cap, which has a flat back and is quilted against paintball sting, check them out here: http://stores.ebay.com/karinvail

This cap is an AMAZING quality item, for DIRT CHEAP! It is made by a paintball mom who works from her home. This is the ultimate paintball headpeice, and can suit whatever camo yu got going on. I personally support the underdog any chance I get, and I was blown away by the quality of this item. For the money, there is nothing better and more suited for the game of paintball in the woods. I will never wear anything else.

Also, for the matching remote coil cover, check out http://stores.ebay.com/danklaes

Another amazing item, for dirt cheap. So glad I got it. Fits my thick cord perfectly, and now it snags on nothing. Matches my camo perfectly, so you dont even see the cord outline next too the body. This is a MUST HAVE item for a remote user, and for the price there is nothing better.

These are both very small single person buisinesses, run out of their homes. I never thought I could expect this quality from a persons home, but now I have a new opinion of the cottage industry. I have contacted Karin about making neck protectors that work with her caps, and she is considering that for this summer. If you are interested, let her know and we can all look forward to even cooler stuff this summer.

I hope that helps you guys out, if you are interested.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

man this thread is getting big famous i am kepping my tac one for now just another gun in the collection. i just order some parts and hopefully they will come in soon. ive been watching some speedball videos and learning more each day. their tactics and movements will help develop my new set up.

one thing foe sure i decided to go air on gun for the simply fact that you can shoot in any postion with the set up unlike a stock you can with a tank:

1) shoot from the middle of your chest
2) forces you to play tight
3) can switch to the left side
4) you can shoot from any angle with a warp feed and q loader set up (most advantage with non force feed feeders)

using a stock is cool but with the holders they have now for tanks on gun you can preety much put the tank anywhere.

[NinjaoftheNight79]

Well, I know this is an old topic, but I really do believe that a pump would be a good thing to learn on, seriously. If I wouldn't have spent the $230 on an A-5, and the piece of crap $75 marker I bought beforet that, I could have had a nice Phantom, and kept it my whole life. Thats right, I could have learned a lot of skills from it, and then when I got my Tac-One, I would be an even better player and could advance on to better stuff.

The point of the pump is to kill that temptation. That temptation is the one that makes you shoot really fast in a sticky situation, as opposed to trying a tactical manuever. You freak out and start shooting fast, when you could be trying to get a better angle on the sucker.

As far as the one shot one kill, it is only a motto, and even as so, OSOK is not hard to do at the distances a true "sniper" would be letting their "prey" get into. We are talking some really close ambushing distance. A "sniper" person with good trigger control that can sit still could be invisible to the enemy until they are close enough, or pass them, and can get very good angles on that person. At their close distance, a single shot for each person would be feasible, for even though accuracy by volume in your standard is better, there is very much accuracy in shooting a closer targer. Also, the lack of speed decrease from being closer would cause a better chance for it to break.

A full scale ambush led by one "sniper" to give the first shots, and the rest to pop out of nowhere to get the enemy while they are vulnerable would be amazing. A group of three, a "sniper" person and two players such as speedballers could do major damage to a larger group just by letting them get close, and letting the hidden "sniper" act as a scout for the ambush.

As far as vests and such, they aren't all that useful in a 20 min game, but for those that have them for their long scenarios may just want to use them, for they already have one, meaning that instead of buying something cheap as you say, they could just use what they already own, which is even cheaper.

[famousgamer]

Good points Ninja. I agree with most. I was actually just thinking about the short range factor in the OSOK type mentality. I guess at seriously close ranges, about one or two shots would be all it takes. Then its all about the silence of the marker, and personal stealth.

I cant wait to see what you are cooking up Lonewolf.

I wish I has a stock class group locally. That would be a blast from the past. It would be like going back in time, and knowing what I know now about paintball. Shucks.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

I guess at some point we all feel that way. one thing about the qloader get to on gun adapter (cms kit) if you screw up loading the gun you can use the loader that clamps on the tank to empty back in the pod and reloaded if you have 2 it makes your life a whole life easier.

[joracle]

Props for the research, dude.

I agree regarding the black straps. So that you know, your picture is of a guy wearing either a backpack or a Camelback over his SpecOps vest. The vest doesn't have straps.

When I compare the camo, I'm look at the Spec Ops' dude's right arm. It's the best example of the effectiveness of the digicam (not the straps or the woodland vest.) I think the increased contrast creates greater depth which creates more camouflage. The SO digi pattern is four color, by the way (Green, black, tan and brown.)

Overall, the MARPAT suit is better (because it's complete) but I can't help but see that the digi blends better with the forest environment. It's like the old Viet Nam era tigerstripe. It's detailed and perfectly matched to forest play.

The MARPAT is great for some environments. Look at how it blends best over the leafy portion of the road. That's truly a better environment for a MARPAT or ACU pattern. If you just look at the SO guy's camo arms, he blends better in the green.

I think that the MARPAT is hurt by its lack of contrast. It tends to blob and blend at distance (see the guy furthest down the road.)

[famousgamer]

Yeah, those camel back straps create some major outlines, and it is indeed worth mentioning that the Spec Ops vest does not have those large black straps on it. Also, the green of his sleeve does blend in well.

It is interesting that you mention contrast. I am Canadian, and when the Canadians introduced CADPAT to our BDUs I became studied in how it worked. The concept of breakup pattern was introduced to the world, and the world tried their own patterns.

The Canadian pattern was the first disruptive pattern implemented in the world. The Canadian pattern has the most contrast out of all the disruptive patterns I have ever seen, ranging from black to a very light green. It is also proven to be the least effective type of disruptive pattern in the world, compared to......

The American marines then went on to invent their own MARPAT desert and woodland patterns, which have less contrast. They were the leading pattern in their respective environments, beating out the former leading British DPM for overall effectivness in all tests.

The the American army later introduced ACU for its common BDU, which has the least contrast out of all the disruptive patterns. Its colors are quite grayish and drab, and very neutral. It reminds me of Crye Systems Multicam in its drabness. Studies show ACU is VERY effictive is the widest range of environments, and still has the least contrast. MARPAT woodland is still the leading pattern for heavily wooded areas, and MARPAT desert in desert environments.

I am just looking at the science and progression of it. I have had the disruptive patterns explained to me by people that are smarter than I will ever be. Also, their development took a decade, and thousands of dollars of research and development were poured into its creation. The Spec Ops woodland camo seems more like a regression, as opposed to a progression, as it recreates the mistaskes that were made with CADPAT.

MARPAT does not use green as its primary color for very specific scientific reasons, and also makes no use of solid bars of color. Therefore, I personally beleive that I must remove all solid bars of color from my BDUs, and just let the MARPAT do its job in order to be as stealthy as possible out there. The blobby effect is exactly what MARPAT is meant to create, and that is why the eye is not attracted to it while scanning.

The Special Ops camo is quite good, I will agree. The color choices are just a little to un natural, and I fear a humans secondary vision will be attracted to it as a result. Mixing in a simple brownish grey to the green tones will drab it up, and settle it down.


Oh yeah, here is a nice way to lower the profile of your mag.I guess you would have to do two things to make this work. Create a long rail to hold everything on, and find a way to lengthen or replace the sear pin to actually fire the thing. I think this has been done before with a mag, but I forgot where I saw it.

[famousgamer]

Actually, I came to kind of a revelation today, in regards to milsim paintball.

It seems that Milsim gear does not reflect the advantages of paintball over military spec. You might be wondering what advantages? Well it is pretty simple.

- a paintball marker can hold up to 200 rounds with comfort. A military rifle holds about one tenth that ammount on average. Paintball are small. Woot.

- a paintball marker and paintball gear in general can be incredibly lightweight and loose none of its effectivness. Military gear is on average very bulky and heavy, requiring more pouches, straps, weight distribution, etc.

- paintball barrels can be 10 inches long and be about 95 percent as accurate as a 20 inch barrel. A real rifle needs a long barrel in order to be accurate.

- a paintball marker provides almost no kick. Real rifles throw aim of from shot to shot, and require the operator to adjust for this reason.

- a paintball marker makes hardly any noise while firing with a good quiet barrel. A gun is loud.

- you can reload up to 140 rounds at a time in paintball. You only get what is in your clip on your rifle.

- in paintball, lazer beams, magnifying scopes and most other attachments other than the red dot is useless. This means you need many less rails and mounting areas as opposed to an assault rifle.

The list goes on. There are lots of advantages to paintball over military spec. My question is: Why the hell do scenario players keep thinking military spec equipment is going to improve their game of paintball?! The two have two distinct sets of needs. Why not have camoed gear that reflects the needs of outdoor paintball for the 20-30 minute game, without all the bulkiness, weight, heat and cost of the military stuff?

There is a group of people that do exploit the advantages of paintball already, and that is the speedballers.

In my opinion, most outdoor paintball gear and the companies thats sell it follow a trend set by the military. Why cant outdoor paintball gear SET the trend for once, and as a result be even MORE effective in the woods?

[VFX_Fenix]

Because it's "Military Simulation"?

If the name of the game is to as accurately (or inaccurately) recreate a weapon used at some point and time by some organisation then it should carry all the bells and whistles of that item for that organisation.

It's be kinda like doing a paintball re-enactment Civil War Sim with everyone running around with space guns, 170rnd hoppers, and tourney gear.

[famousgamer]

Yes, I understand that. What I am saying tho is that woodsball players seem to find a benifit in using military gear for their everyday paintball game, beyond the advantage of simply "looking" military.

I am all for dressing up and doing re-enactment, but again... that is not what I am discussing. I am talking about paintball players that swear that their 200 dollar vest that heats them up and renders their camo less effective of somehow improving their average 20-30 minute paintball game. I am talking about players that wear 31 pockets on them during a game, and declare that their rig is better than a simple pod belt with suspenders?!

Besides, paintball can be a military simulation... but is just has to be more streamlined and suited towards paintball. Imagine is real wars were fought with paintball guns by everyones army. Then imagine the changes that would occour with the military belts and stuff, and so on. See my point?

Or how about this... imagine is every marine had to fight for only 30 minutes at a time? What do you think they would have on them? Now imagine if they were using a pistol (a good comparison in many regards to a paintball marker). Imagine the changes they would make, and so on.

I am saying "Forget the glamor, and pick up the jackhammer!". That quote is from Mike Patton of Faith No More. Playing dress up just doesnt improve ones paintball game. That right, I said it. Dressing down does.

[ThePixelGuru]

Summary: Form < Function. Effective military gear ≠ effective paintball gear.

I hear you, man. I'm one of the "lurkers" you've mentioned, been following the thread for a while now. You seem like a smart dude in terms of marker design, and I figured while you're playing with ideas for your marker maybe you've got a bright idea for mine. Here's what I have now. I'm thinking QLoader under the gripframe pushed forward to the CO2 tank. You know if I could do that with the CMS? Would the QLoader alone pass for a light stock? Any other ideas? Thanks man, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with for your final marker.

Oh, and not to be a pain in the ***, but any progress on the silencer thing? Keep up the good work.

[Mescalito]

Actually, I came to kind of a revelation today, in regards to milsim paintball.

It seems that Milsim gear does not reflect the advantages of paintball over military spec. You might be wondering what advantages? Well it is pretty simple.

- a paintball marker can hold up to 200 rounds with comfort. A military rifle holds about one tenth that ammount on average. Paintball are small. Woot.

- a paintball marker and paintball gear in general can be incredibly lightweight and loose none of its effectivness. Military gear is on average very bulky and heavy, requiring more pouches, straps, weight distribution, etc.

- paintball barrels can be 10 inches long and be about 95 percent as accurate as a 20 inch barrel. A real rifle needs a long barrel in order to be accurate.

- a paintball marker provides almost no kick. Real rifles throw aim of from shot to shot, and require the operator to adjust for this reason.

- a paintball marker makes hardly any noise while firing with a good quiet barrel. A gun is loud.

- you can reload up to 140 rounds at a time in paintball. You only get what is in your clip on your rifle.

- in paintball, lazer beams, magnifying scopes and most other attachments other than the red dot is useless. This means you need many less rails and mounting areas as opposed to an assault rifle.

The list goes on. There are lots of advantages to paintball over military spec. My question is: Why the hell do scenario players keep thinking military spec equipment is going to improve their game of paintball?! The two have two distinct sets of needs. Why not have camoed gear that reflects the needs of outdoor paintball for the 20-30 minute game, without all the bulkiness, weight, heat and cost of the military stuff?

There is a group of people that do exploit the advantages of paintball already, and that is the speedballers.

In my opinion, most outdoor paintball gear and the companies thats sell it follow a trend set by the military. Why cant outdoor paintball gear SET the trend for once, and as a result be even MORE effective in the woods?

And you came upon this knowledge today? Well thanks be to jesus our SAVIOR is HERE! Man, you act like you are the first person with military knowledge to play paintball... You are like a 7th grade english teacher trying to teach about vowels. Tell us something WE WANT TO HEAR. Tell us something we HAVENT heard before. Tell us SOMETHING that wont leave us laghing, wondering WHY in the ____ you even bothered to post this pointless drivel. Sure your prototype gun seemed worth while... BUT WHERE IS IT NOW? PHISPHEN finished his mod, did you? How many people look to YOUR thread for advice... Get on with it and STFU. Do your "mod" so we can make fun of it and finally forget it...